Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[not an echo]

On 5/5/2021 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Yeah, there are difficulties in The Revelation.  But, I would suggest that the biggest ones are the ones that have been imposed upon it by all the schools of higher learning.  Diaste, you and I have both broke free of a lot of that.  I'm kinda thinking that you may need to break free of a little bit more.

Concerning your last sentences (from "Do you really believe the conditions..."), has it never gave you pause just how marvelous Jesus' words are?  I mean, Jesus Christ---rejected by so many, embraced by us---said this was what it was going to be (e.g., Matt. 24:4-14).  If Nostradamus---rejected by us, embraced by so many---had said this was what it was going to be, his followers would be swinging from the chandeliers.  So, we have many of the same conditions, but also, some that are Christianity-specific.  The fact that we still have even half of these conditions after 2000 years is a remarkable testimony to Jesus Christ, that He wasn't in the category of a Looney Tune character.  

I'm saying the conditions do not exist and have not existed. I'm asking what is going to differentiate these conditions from conditions over 2-4000 years to know it's the fulfillment of prophecy? 

Just what conditions are you saying "do not exist and have not existed"?  What needs to be seen here is that Jesus Christ, that Carpenter from Nazareth, rejected by others, embraced by us, hit all His nails square on the head, everything He said in Matthew 24:4-14.

If you are saved, and I certainly believe that you are, you are going to be caught up by the angels at the time of the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal, at the time of Christ's Sign Appearance.  You, with me, are going to have this part in what I call the intersecting event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), which every single verse of Matthew 24:29-51 concerns.  This event happens between Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 24:15, as substantiated in The Revelation.  Those who remain will see the rise of the Antichrist, and those who continue to survive will be in the number of those who will see Christ's Second Advent, all of which Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15-28.  Those who remain and gather in the valley of Megiddo are going to be a feast for the birds (Matt. 24:28/Rev. 19:19-21).  Of course, there's a lot more to the equation than this.  This is just some of the basic math, related to the three sections of Jesus' Olivet Discourse (i.e., the forgoing three Matthew references in bold).  I hope you will consider afresh my thread on Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

Edited March 15, 2023 by not an echo
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[Diaste]

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

Just what conditions are you saying "do not exist and have not existed"?  What needs to be seen here is that Jesus Christ, that Carpenter from Nazareth, rejected by others, embraced by us, hit all His nails square on the head, everything He said in Matthew 24:4-14.

Dude. You fail every time to deal with it. What differentiates the prophecy of Matt 24:4-7 from the conditions that have existed from the 1st century to today from the same conditions that existed for 3000 before Jesus came?

3000 years before Jesus arrived in Nazareth, "See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places." all this was going on. You could argue that no one came in Jesus name but that's just Messiah; and no doubt there were false Messiahs and false prophets by the hundreds for 3000 years before Jesus arrived. In this way Jesus would be historical in Matt 24:4-7 and not prophetic.

So it's not impressive nor prophetic that Jesus recounts 3000 years of history while easing back on the Mount of Olives answering the question in the private discussion.  

Jesus also calls this "All these are the beginning of birth pains." 2000 years of birth pains? Can you support this?

Then what is often forgotten: "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." All these things have not happened in any single generation from Jesus' time to now. Not before and not after. All of them within one generation must occur. 

Then is we look at this "There will be famines and earthquakes in various places" idealized as Jesus spoke  we find 'various' doesn't mean locale.

Transliteration: kata
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ah')
Definition: down, against, according to
Usage: gen: against, down from, throughout, by; acc: over against, among, daily, day-by-day, each day, according to, by way of.

2596 katá (a preposition, governing two grammatical cases) – properly, "down from, i.e. from a higher to a lower plane, with special reference to the terminus (end-point)" (J. Thayer).

 The concept is down from above moving toward the terminus and it's constant, every day. This is a far cry from what the earth has experienced over the last two millennia.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

If you are saved, and I certainly believe that you are, you are going to be caught up by the angels at the time of the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal, at the time of Christ's Sign Appearance.  You, with me, are going to have this part in what I call the intersecting event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), which every single verse of Matthew 24:29-51 concerns.  This event happens between Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 24:15, as substantiated in The Revelation.  

Yeah...no. 

For ease I'll bold the unchangeable order of events of Matt 24:15-31

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 

16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

23At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance.

The Return of the Son of Man
(Mark 13:24–27; Luke 21:25–28)

26So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

It's only after the A of D and the GT that the signs will appear. You placing verse 30 before verse 15 just shows how out of step your propositions are in regards to the words of Jesus.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste (and all),

Well, I'm going to do the best I can with the time I have remaining this week.  And, the way it goes for me, that might change with less than a moment's notice, if you know what I mean. 

Concerning your above reply Diaste, I'm thankful we are in agreement.

It seems almost like you are saying that the time was "at hand" for it to be revealed to them what they were at that very time going to be holding in their hand---The Revelation.  That would seem to me to be an odd take on things.  Or, are you believing that it is being conveyed that the time had come for Jesus to reveal to them things that were not going to begin to happen to anyone for at least some 2000 years?  As you understand things, would you have any suggestions, based on The Revelation, concerning what perhaps that we should be keeping an eye out for now?  Should we actually be looking for a rider on a white horse with a bow?  I mean, we don't need to concern ourselves about false Christ's and false prophets, for we've been seeing that for some 2000 years.  Should we be looking for a rider on a red horse with a great sword?  I mean, we don't need to concern ourselves about wars and rumors of wars, for we've been seeing that for some 2000 years.  I'm disinclined to continue, over lack of time and your seeming disdain for what you label rhetoric.  But, I hope you are hearing me.

Why does it seem such a stretch that a prophecy is given and it's centuries later it's fulfilled? Jesus was to have the victory over the serpent from Genesis 3 and yet here we are still dealing with the whispering of the serpent.

Of course the symbols are allegorical. But they are analogous to the affects. The white horse and rider conqueror, the red horse is war, the black economic control and the green horse is death. It's the conquering, war, economic control and death in view here not caricature or animation. You do this often when you can't answer and this continued and deliberate obfuscation is unbecoming.

I never said we are not to be concerned but this is a tactic used when you cannot answer the question. "What is the difference that we might know the prophecy is come to pass?" 

 

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning, "and that when the moment arrives for this to begin it will all happen very quickly,"  are you thinking that this reflects what everyone's reassurance will be that will be going through Daniel's 70th Week?  I would suggest that when the Day of the Lord begins and the later commencement of Daniel's 70th Week, the world will be wishing that it was over "very quickly" indeed, a lot quicker than it is gonna be.  Seems to me that yours is an odd take on the Koine Greek and what would be reassuring for anyone during such a time.  I like the translator's take on the Koine Greek much better and understanding the account in its simplicity.  But, I'm one of them common folk.

Emotional arguments carry no weight. I'd rather you present the facts and have a marginally correct conclusion than engage in demagoguery.

Even just a regular reading without defining the terms lead to the idea it's the giving of the prophecy that is at hand and not the fulfillment nor the beginning of the fulfillment. As far as soon come to pass logic dictates none has come to pass. This is based on your presentations. You say it must have come to pass in portions then resort to later fulfilment as you see fit. So was all the prophecy supposed to come to pass 'soon' of just the parts that you see fit? 

In other words, is "what must soon come to pass." applicable to all of Revelation or just selected parts?

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

For me, it has become an increasingly marvelous testimony to the Divinity of Christ's words that the Olivet Discourse holds great relevance to every generation of believers since the time Christ spoke the words and especially great relevance for that generation that will indeed see "all these things" of which He spoke.  And, of that generation, I believe we both agree, we may be a part.  Consider how this can play out, according to my interpretations:

From a real time perspective, if we (you and I), are raptured today, we are a part of the generation of which we are a part, whatever part of our generation is raptured, or whatever part of our generation remains.  Focusing upon those who will remain, there will be the 144,000 that are sealed, then, those who will ultimately end up saved (those who don't league with or succumb to the Antichrist), and then, there will be all the rest.  Said another way, if we (you and I), are raptured today, all that remain upon the earth will yet be a part of our generation.  Thinking now of the elect of our generation that remain (the 144,000 and all the mark rejecters), they will have seen the same things we have.  They will have seen the things Jesus spoke of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:5-14/first four seals), just like we have.  PLUS, they will experience and/or observe what happens at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal (Matt. 24:29-51/Rev. 6:12-7:17), PLUS they will see the rise of the Antichrist and witness the time when the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week will take place.  This means, that a friend of ours (perhaps a Jew that is presently lost) would see "all these things" and face the very real possibility of martyrdom in his or her near future, or, be part of the remnant that will survive in hiding until Christ's Second Coming.  On the other hand, we would have seen a lot of the things, just not "all these things" like those of our generation that remains.

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened" That includes Matt 24:4-34

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Now, I know that from the perspective of your understanding, you may feel compelled to pick this apart.  But my experience has been that I will feel equally compelled to clarify it further for you, showing its harmony with Scripture.  While it may not harmonize with your present understanding, it is harmony with Scripture that must be sought.  I'm believing that you realize this.  I'm really just saying this so that you will realize that I realize it as well.  For me, it has been a whole lot easier understanding what I do---especially when I came to see it---than it has been to find the time to explain it all so that others can see it as well.  I hope my understanding has been helpful to some.  Taking the time to put it forth has been a spiritually rewarding exercise for me.

If you talk to 10 people on this site at least 5 will have a wholly different take on any passage or verse or concept and each will be able to prove it's the only way to harmonize all the scripture both extant and relevant.  I hear preachers and teachers say this all the time. As example I listened to 4 just yesterday and the above is exactly what happened. One said the Pope is the antichrist and harmonized all the relevant scripture. Two others said we don't know who the antichrist is and harmonized all the relevant scripture. The other said it's simply a spiritual system and there is no 'antichrist' and believe it or not...harmonized all the scripture.

All were equally convinced of the conclusion by way of proper exegesis. So you tell me; how they can all be correct in their understanding in the diversity of conclusion? They cannot. Just like the several takes on the rapture compete and claim harmony in truth, they cannot all be true. So which is true? Yours? Mine? Mid? Post?

None in reality. Only what Jesus says is true. Not a single person here speaks the truth unless it comes from repeating what Jesus said. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." Mankind has none of these attributes and in fact "let God be true and every man a liar" has never been more apparent than in what is allowed on this site.

 

[not an echo]

On 5/6/2021 at 4:00 PM, Da Puppers said:

On 5/1/2021 at 2:06 PM, not an echo said:

As with the previous six trumpets, when the 7th Trumpet is sounded, John writes what he saw (Rev. 11:15-19).  What he saw at this time does not harmonize with what Jesus spoke concerning the event of "the sign of Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31ff), nor the other things that we find in Scripture that do harmonize with that event.  Rather, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period of time that is expounded in Revelation chapters 12-20, as evidenced by the summary words of this period (esp. Rev. 11:18).  Further, it heralds the period of time that will finally bring to pass complete closure for this world (Rev. 10:7, 11:18, 20:11ff, and Rev. 21:1).

Agreed,  the 7th Trumpet sounds AFTER the sign of the Son of man in heaven.  Agreed that it also heralds (is followed by) a period of time before Armageddon.

Hello Da Puppers,

Concerning your first sentence, I would just like to add (and clarify) that I believe the 7th Trumpet will sound well after the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), like at least 3-1/2 years after.  And, concerning your second sentence, I believe that the period the 7th Trumpet heralds will include a period of 3-1/2 years between this trumpet sounding and the Battle of Armageddon.  Said another way, as it shapes up to me, the 7th Trumpet will not only herald a period of time, its sounding will mark the midpoint of Daniel's 70th Week.

On 5/6/2021 at 4:00 PM, Da Puppers said:

On 5/1/2021 at 2:06 PM, not an echo said:

With the sounding of the Trump of God, "the dead in Christ shall rise first;  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:16-17).

Disagree.  As I have already addressed this.   It is an unfounded assumption,  based solely on 1 Thes 4 that the rising of the "dead in Christ" is a simultaneous event with "those who are alive and remain " being caught up to meet "THEM" in the air.   In Matt 24:29, it is also an assumption to equate the "sign of the Son of man" with "Jesus coming with clouds of glory".   I addressed this in my previous post about the Rev 12 sign of the woman.   The woman with 12 stars is not alluding to Israel,  as per Gen 37, Joseph's vision... Joseph's mother, Rachel was already dead.  The imagery of the woman (with 12 stars) finds its origin in Isaiah 66.  There,  the woman,  [not Israel]  is distinguished from her children.   There the woman is repeatedly alluded to as Zion.   The woman is not Israel, the nation.   But it is the city of Zion,  that rules over the children of Zion.   And in Rev 12, when she appears in HEAVEN WITH 12 STARS,  she is seen in heaven,  and not on earth (as if it were referring to the nation or people).  She is the heavenly Zion,  the new Jerusalem.   She flees into heavens wilderness.   She disappears.   I will end this saying but refreshing yourself with the picture given to us of the new Jerusalem.   She has twelve gates with an angel (repeatedly symbolized as a star(s) in the book of Revelation) at each gate.   A view from afar (men seeing this sign in HEAVEN)  would be a city/ woman having 12 angels/ stars. 

On 5/1/2021 at 2:06 PM, not an echo said:

In harmony with this, at the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven...He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet (the Trump of God/the Last Trump), and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds (when we are "caught up") (Matt. 24:30-31).

Here you again,  mistakenly identify the Trump of God with the last Trump,  but NOT with the 7th Trumpet.   The last trumpet is the 7th Trumpet.   It is not the same as the Trump of God.   Let me again refer you to the parable of the wheat/ tares, for the purpose of the 7 Trumpet angels.   They are sent to "gather out of his kingdom those things which offend and do iniquity".   The purpose of the trumpets is for Jesus to remove from his kingdom those things that are unholy... then the 7th Trumpet sounds and the kingdom of God comes.   This is WHEN the gathering of the elect begins... from heaven AND earth.   Let me refer you back to Mark 13's parallel passage... and then...

Mar 13:27 KJV And THEN shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

On 5/1/2021 at 2:06 PM, not an echo said:

The preceding event harmonizes with the opening of the 6th Seal, as evidenced by the paralleling celestial phenomena of Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-14.  This is also reinforced by the Luke 21:25-27 parallel and the just gathered "great multitude" (Rev. 7:9-17) shown in the interlude between the 6th and 7th Seal.

Agreed.  The 6th Seal event correlates to the sign of the Son of man.  But it shall appear in the heavens for only 3 days and nights before it disappears into the wilderness.   Notice the different time schedules corresponding to Rev 12, 1260 days and time, times,  and dividing of time.   They are not the same lengths of time. 

A short word about the great multitude of Rev 7.  They have white robes... just like the 5th Seal martyrs.  White robes ARE NOT a symbol of imbued immortality.  Numerous passages show that immortality is given in conjunction with the day of wrath of the lamb... at his coming/ parousia.   I don't think that you can disagree that the 5th Seal takes place BEFORE the coming of Christ takes place.  I.e. white robes are given BEFORE His coming takes,  but not immortality.   The white robes of Rev 7 only symbolize righteousness, and not immortality.    The great multitude of Rev 7 has indeed been taken to heaven,  but immortality has not been conferred.    This multitude also has palms in their hands,  in a pre-conveyance of immortality.   We see a similar parallel in Rev 15 and the children of Israel... those who didn't take the mark.  The great multitude of Rev 7 mimics what I have put forth about 1 Thes 4... the dead rise first and then later at the 7th Trumpet,  immortality is conferred,  AFTER the kingdom has been cleansed by the angels of Jesus.  That is exactly what Paul said takes place when the kingdom of God is inherited... this mortal puts on immortality and this corruptible puts on incorruption.   Let me reiterate that thought.   This is when the kingdom of God is inherited.  

On 5/1/2021 at 2:06 PM, not an echo said:

The part of Joel's Day of the Lord prophecy that we know relates specifically to the last days is quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21).  The celestial phenomena of that prophecy (Acts 2:20) fits with both Jesus' words (Matt. 24:29) and John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-14), which shows these phenomena happening before the Day of the Lord/the Great Day of His Wrath (Rev. 6:17), all in harmony with Joel's prophecy.

Agreed.   But the events of the trumpets and witnesses appearing ALL happen in preparatory fashion to the DOTL. 

On 5/1/2021 at 2:06 PM, not an echo said:

In harmony with the foregoing scriptural evidences, we see nothing of any other trumpets until after the 7th Seal of the Seven Sealed Book is opened (Rev. 8:1).  It is after this, and not before, that John saw "seven angels, which stood before God;  and to them were given seven trumpets" (Rev. 8:2).  When the 1st Trumpet is sounded, John gives an account of what happened (Rev. 8:7).  The same with the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th trumpets, the latter of these two being also described as "woes" that are "past" (5th/Rev. 9:12 and 6th/Rev. 11:14

Agreed. 

Is immortality conferred to the righteous,  excluding the elect of Israel,  at different times,  ala the Rapture and the 7th Trumpet?   You have stated that there is a period of time after the 7th Trumpet sounds before Armageddon.   The idea that immortality is conferred before (at the Rapture) the kingdom is ready to be inhabited by the saints nullifies (imo) God's plan of giving the kingdom to the Son.   It is our presentation (by Jesus)  to the Father as being found worthy of inheriting the kingdom, that is a necessary precursor to God giving the kingdom to Jesus.  

Dan 7:13-14 KJV ¹³ I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. ¹⁴ And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Do you see any glorified saints,  clothed in immortality,  with Jesus in that passage, when he comes with clouds of glory?  Upon which he is THEN given a kingdom and dominion and authority?  Or,  Do you see any immortalized saints with Jesus in any of the following passages?

Mat 24:30 KJV And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mar 13:26 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luk 21:27 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Why are there no immortalized saints coming with Jesus in the clouds (in those  Rapture(?) passages?  I contend that is not only before he receives the kingdom,  but it is because he is only taking the un-immortalized dead in Christ to be presented to the Father.   Those who are alive and remain (at that time)  are NOT only unworthy of inheriting the kingdom,  but they would immediately perish in God's presence.   The kingdom will not be conferred until it is ready to be received.   The dead in Christ proved their worthiness of the kingdom by not denying Christ during those times of great tribulation.   "Worthy saints" are the worthy token that God the Father requires of Jesus for to receive the kingdom in which he shall rule.   Shall we receive the kingdom before it is ready to be inherited?   There is a time coming when Jesus shall be deemed worthy (by the Father)  to open the seals and receive the kingdom. 

Rev 5:2 KJV And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Why are we given immortality from the Father, but for to Jesus and the saints to receive the eternal kingdom of God that is on the earth!

1Th 3:13 KJV To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

2Th 1:4-10 KJV ⁴ So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: ⁵ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: ⁶ Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; ⁷ And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, ⁸ In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ⁹ Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ¹⁰ When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I pray that you can understand what I believe.   Having similar,  but at the same time,  a radically different view,  I know,  will make it difficult to accept what i believe.  

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

I, like you, can see areas where we agree, but, sometimes I'm not sure if we agree as much as it may seem.  And, I've still got to look further at some things you have said.  Presently, in a nutshell, I'm not able to get your kite to fly very well for me.  But, I'll keep working with it... 

[not an echo]

On 5/7/2021 at 9:57 AM, luigi said:

On 5/6/2021 at 9:36 PM, not an echo said:

Hello luigi,

Concerning your first sentence, I believe that you are agreeing with me, but I just say it a little differently.  Rather than "occurs over a period of time,"  I interpret the sounding of the 7th Trumpet as heralding a period of time.  To me, it's a little, but important difference.  Hope you see what I mean. 

Concerning your second sentence, we do find evidences of time frames connected with the sounding of the 5th (Rev. 9:5, 10) and 6th (Rev. 9:15;  11:2-3, 9, 11) trumpets.  While such evidences are lacking for the first four, this doesn't mean there is not going to be.   There's just nothing written concerning this with the first four.  Personally, and for various reasons, I believe the first four trumpets may be sounded the same day.  I hope you will consider my thread, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).

Hello Echo,

If you notice, during the first four sounding warnings by the Lords first four angels, 1/3 of all of earth's environmental resources are destroyed as a result of man not accepting the truth by the Lord's illuminators provide. In Revelation 9:20 we see that the plagues the first six angels soundings in chapters 8 & 9 provide are attributed to the love mankind has for the things his hands produce. Today over 95% of the things mans hands produce are produced in factories that require the burning of fossil fuels. Put one and one together, and we see that a lot of what is occurring today in the environment correlates with what the first four angels of God are providing mankind warning against. 

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Hello luigi,

Connected with your comments, I think of John's words in I John 2:

 15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.  If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

 16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 17  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:  but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

[not an echo]

On 5/8/2021 at 6:24 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/6/2021 at 7:44 PM, not an echo said:

What's up with that is that I, like you, no longer subscribe to the "classic pretrib" view.  My subscription to that view ran out long ago.  I still hold to the bottom line of that view (imminence), I just disagree with how all the others that hold to it arrive at it.

Concerning your second sentence, my position, according to what will harmonize with all of Scripture, is that Christ can return for the rapture at any time.  I'm not seeing anything concerning a sign that we are to be looking for, except for the event of the appearance of "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), which is the imminent event.  This will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Said another way, when I say that Christ's return for the rapture is imminent, or the opening of the 6th Seal is imminent, I am meaning the same thing.

A little note concerning signs:  I would like to point out that I do see the ongoing fulfillment of the portion of Jesus' discourse that parallels the first four seals, as a sign that has spanned some 2000 years---a sign that Jesus Christ sure knew what He was talking about.

You say "imminence is a farce."  I'm thinking, if Jesus comes now, He will certainly come "in such an hour as ye think not" (Matt. 24:44).  I'm suddenly reminded of John's words in I John 2:

 28  And now, little children, abide in Him;  that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

Be careful Diaste.

I am careful. Jesus return will not be imminent as put forth by, whomever. That moment does not come as a thief to us, only to those in darkness does it come suddenly and unexpectedly, as a thief in the night.

"But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief." 1 Thess 5

No matter the take on the coming of Jesus, He does not come as a thief to us.

Hello Diaste,

Just to clarify a bit, when I used the word imminent above, it was in the sense that Christ's return for the rapture of the Church can happen at any time.  This is different than "suddenly and unexpectedly, as a thief" to everyone.

A little more needs to be noted about Paul's words to the Thessalonians concerning the Day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night.  While all of us who are saved are "children of light" (I Thess. 5:5), this does not mean that we will always walk in the light that we have.  We know that all of God's children are not going around all of the time waiting for the Trump of God to sound or the Day of the Lord to begin.  When I was saved at 10 years old, I certainly didn't.  And, when I was living according to the ways of the world I didn't.  I believe this is why Paul enjoins the Thessalonians thus, "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;  but let us watch and be sober" (I Thess. 5:6).  We should take note.  If all of God's children always walked in the light, we wouldn't need all the counsel we find in God's Word calling us to do just that.

While we know that all don't watch as they should and all don't remain sober as they should, I certainly believe that all of God's children "which are alive and remain shall be caught up together" when "the Trump of God" sounds!  Interestingly, we understand that this will happen in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:52).  This strongly suggests that even God's children who aren't doing as Paul enjoins, won't be as those to whom this will happen as a thief.  God's children are the "goods" that will be taken!  As the thief comes for the valuables, we are in the category of the valuables!  Those to whom Jesus comes "as a thief" and to whom the Day of the Lord will come "as a thief in the night" are those from which the goods or valuables will have just been taken.

In accord with what I have clarified, I wholeheartedly agree with your statement, "No matter the take on the coming of Jesus, He does not come as a thief to us."  Rather, He will come as a thief for us.

And, because I believe Jesus' coming for us is imminent, the Trump of God may sound and He may steal us out of this world before I push Submit Repl...

Edited March 15, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 5/8/2021 at 6:24 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

About forgot.  With the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), there is going to be "a great sound of a trumpet," at which time "He shall send His angels...and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds" (Matt. 24:31).  This trumpet, of which Jesus is here referring, is what Paul referred to as "The Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16).  The gathering together by the angels, of which Jesus speaks, connects with what Paul referred to as being "caught up" (I Thess. 4:17).  You better know, Christ's angels can get it done!

You need to add 1 Cor 15:51 in your mix. Yes, it's the trump of God. Yes, it's the sound of a great trumpet. Yes, it's also the last trump. And there is only one of those in all scripture directly connected to the gathering and the return of Jesus; the 7th trump of Revelation. 

Concerning your first sentence, my oversight---on this particular post anyway.  To me, a far greater concern is that you have to mix the 7th Trumpet with the 6th Seal (which you always try to do) to have any hope of your position being even remotely so.  These are like oil and water.  You stir 'em up and it seems like maybe possibly.  Then, they separate---again, and again, and again.

Edited March 18, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 5/8/2021 at 6:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/6/2021 at 12:19 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Where do you get that?  I'm sorry, but it looks like to me that your statement is in serious conflict with Scripture.  Well, I've got to back up just a bit and say that I'm sorry for saying "I'm sorry"

Sorry about what?

No matter.

No conflict. John does not give us language that tells us the 7 angels given 7 trumps and prepared to sound the trumps must of demand follow the 7th seal chronologically. 

In the examples in the earlier post I pointed out language John employs to show cause and effect, e.g., a seal opens and conditions occur and, the chronological order of the opening of the seals. This same concept does not exist in Rev 8:1-2

John does not say when the angels are given the trumps, just that they are given trumps. That John records this at this point in the book does not necessarily show cause and effect since the wording isn't there. 

I'll grant it could be the case but the text doesn't prove it in Rev 8:1-2.

I'm thankful that you at least "grant it could be the case."  Of course, I am deeply convicted that it is indeed the case.

On 5/8/2021 at 6:52 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

I'm figuring that it was just an oversight, but, did you intentionally leave out, "1And when he had opened the seventh seal," (Rev. 8), after "12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal," above?

I just thought the example of Rev 6 and the obvious chronology would be evident in the wording and language in contrast to Rev 8:1-2 where chronological language is nonexistent

IMHO, your statement that "chronological language is nonexistent" is a precarious denial of the obvious.  I understand that you are not seeing what you think should be present, but that does not mean it is nonexistent.  To me, it's right before our very eyes.  I am reminded of the challenge believers have trying to get atheists to see what is right before their very eyes.  They are searching for something they are not seeing, but for us, it is so easy.  Now, Diaste, I am not suggesting that you are like an atheist.  I just hope that by this example you can see the nature of the challenge you sometimes present.  I can't help what has become so clear to me.  I am saying this with genuine Christian charity (I Cor. 13).  Our Father is my witness.

On 5/8/2021 at 6:52 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Concerning your first sentence, is this one of them arguments from silence that you sometimes talk about?

To say the 7 angels given the 7 trumps can only ever follow the 7th seal is an argument from silence. The text doesn't say so, it's not a cause and effect. It could be, but the text is silent here. We have to look for other clues for the chronology.

Again, I am thankful that you acknowledge "It could be".  I'm anxious for the time when you point out something that I have ever said that is actually out of harmony with Scripture, and not merely out of harmony with the way you interpret things.

On 5/8/2021 at 6:52 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Concerning your second paragraph and last sentence, are you not thinking that it was after this (the opening of the 7th Seal and the silence) that John saw the seven angels with the seven trumpets? 

If the words 'after this' appeared in the text that's different. Those words do not appear in Rev 8:1-2. John uses them in other places and in Rev 8:1-2 it's a conspicuous absence.

It's "a conspicuous absence"?  My use of after this wasn't built off any pattern of "after this" that I am seeing.  My use of after this is built off what is staring us in the face.  Do you think that the 2nd Seal is opened after the 1st Seal?  There's no "after this."  Do you think the 3rd Seal is opened after the 2nd Seal?  There's no "after this."  Same with the rest of the seals.  Do you think the 2nd Trumpet is sounded after the 1st Trumpet?  There's no "after this."  Do you think the 3rd Trumpet is sounded after the 2nd Trumpet?  There's no "after this."  Same with the rest of the trumpets.  Same with the vials.  Where is the pattern you imply is absent in Revelation 8:1-2 that makes it not being there "a conspicuous absence"?

Edited March 15, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 5/8/2021 at 12:41 PM, Da Puppers said:

On 5/7/2021 at 11:31 PM, not an echo said:

question for everyone:  Several times lately, at random times, if I hit my "Back" button, I will lose the whole paragraph I have been working on.  It happened to me a couple of times today.  Are any of you experiencing this?  Really frustrating...especially when you are already pressed for time---and sleepy.

Yep, I just lost an hour plus long reply.   So frustrating.   All my thoughts just disappeared into thin air... right after my wife just called me on the phone,  lol. 

Be Blessed (anyways) 

The PuP 

I was thinking that it was something I was doing inadvertently.  Maybe we're both doing something inadvertently!  I've been thinking that the next time it happens to me, I'm going to right click and see if I get an "undo" option.  So far, I've been able to make several replies without it happening.  I just knocked on wood. 

[not an echo]

On 5/8/2021 at 1:07 PM, Da Puppers said:

On 5/7/2021 at 11:31 PM, not an echo said:

It is shaping up to be a very full weekend for me, but maybe I can get in an installment here and there.  I think it is probably easy for the both of us to perceive that the wheels of our minds turn somewhat differently, even in relation to Scripture that is the same.  An example is in your second paragraph.  I have never entertained the possibility that the opening of the 6th Seal is as you say, "the time when Satan and the stars of heaven are cast down."  I have tried since to entertain that possibility, but am yet unable.  I guess an obstacle to this for me (among other things) is the very apparent chronological order of The Revelation.

Let me just say that Jesus (in Matt.24: 29) is quoting Isa 13 and not from Joel 2.  It is about the day of wrath of the Lord of hosts, Jesus: 

Isa 13:10-13 KJV ¹⁰ For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. ¹¹ And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. ¹² I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. ¹³ Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

The allusury language of the angels being referred to as stars (of heaven) 

Rev 1:20 KJV The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev 12:4 KJV And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Rev 12:9 KJV And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 9:1 KJV And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to "him" was given the key of the bottomless pit.

In Rev 20 we see that it is an angel that has the key to the bottomless pit.   The "star" that fell is an angel.  When you make the connection of Rev 6:12ff to Isa 13, you also make the connection to Isa 2, Joel 2:11;3:16, Amos 1:2 and Jer 25:29-30, when the Lord Jesus shall shout from his holy habitation of Jerusalem that shakes the heavens and the earth... the wrath of the Lamb.   This is when the 3 days and nights in Jerusalem begins. 

My point being,  the angels are referred in allusury fashion as the stars of heaven.   Isaiah 13's "moon not giving her light" has been equated to Joel's moon turning to blood,  by Rev 6:12ff., God shaking the heavens and the earth and to the stars withdrawing their shining.   I make the same connection in regards to the woman with 12 stars.   Rev 4-11 differs in regards to Rev 12ff by perspective.   Basically, the former is the view from heaven and the latter is the view from earth.  Rev 12 begins with the only sign that Israel will recognize,  the sign in the heavens,  symbolizing the coming kingdom AND the Son coming king.  Though Israel experience the events prior to the 6th Seal,  it is only then that they recognize this sign from heaven.  You will notice the phrase "FROM heaven" found numerous times in the latter, which is giving an earthly perspective of things.   The same for the Rev 12 signs... in heaven.   Read Isa 66 to see that the woman is alluding to Jerusalem.   Having 12 stars,  brings the (earthly perspective)  connection to the heavenly Jerusalem.   I have to stop for now.   More later. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP

On "The allusury language of the angels being referred to as stars (of heaven),"  I've never made the connection in my past studies that you are here making, and I'm still not with Matthew 24:29/Isaiah 13.  On the other, I believe this wisdom, "When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense" serves us well.