When was Satan kicked out of heaven?

[DeighAnn]

27 minutes ago, Starise said:

How did God love one hate one?

Sorry you lost me there. One of what?

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated

 

28 minutes ago, Starise said:

-How did God know Jeremiah?

He made him. That one was simple to answer.

So that would be the simple answer that never would be made as it would apply to all.  So, to me, there must be a point.  

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

WHY make an excuse?  It's not written, I knew who you would be, not I knew I could count on you, not knew what would happen, but KNEW you. 

What does knew you mean?  

40 minutes ago, Starise said:

-How are some pre justified while others are not?

You really want to touch that one here?  I think it makes a false assumption all depending on the application. How this directly ties into the line of the thread I'm not sure?

I don't think it is me, per se, that wants to touch that one here.  The Spirit of Gods word is clear and remains that way,  UP UNTIL man gets into the 'letter' of it and taking 'parts' of a whole truth and trying to make each part a truth on its own and then wondering why there is conflict.  I digress.  It fits in this thread because of what came before the fall of Satan and where one stood then.  

Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Acts 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee  18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins,
AND INHERITANCE AMONG THEM WHICH ARE SANCTIFIED BY FAITH THAT IS IN ME. 

 

50 minutes ago, Starise said:

How can a baby be judged?

I see no relevance whatsoever?  This probably leads to another topic with a long explanation.

NO, all the same, God KNEW them before they were formed in the womb.  So what we may see as 'unjust' here in the flesh, isn't, it is just our perception from not possessing all the information

 

 

56 minutes ago, Starise said:

Why are men a little lower than the angels?

I'll take a stab at that one. Because Yahweh took much of our capability away at the fall. Remember Adam walked with God. This also leads to another question. Do you mean positionally or in terms of power or ability? 

I understand you say these questions are already answered. I guess I just lost you there. I don't understand all of the questions let alone assume I know the answers to them 

And it isn't you.  I think you can imagine why I never taught Sunday school or was a preacher.  Communication is not one of my better skills (but I am trying really hard).  

Lower than the angels?  We are in corruptible and able to be killed bodies, and physically away from God while on the earth not having died and had any sort of judgement yet.  

I say these questions cease to be questions when what took place before is taken into account.  

God created Lucifer the full pattern, then he is the serpent in the garden.  

To me NOW, it is so simple and clear it is hard to explain because I don't remember what it was like before knowing this.  I know it was hard to accept at the time but I can't remember why but once I realized the  foundation I was standing on only left me with questions on the simplest of statements and this new foundation always brought answers and clarity and WAY less judgment on everything else, I thought I'd give it a real try.  Gods Word itself will make it go away if it is indeed it is not HIS Truth.  YEars later, I have never found anything in the Word that has made it go away or change me back.  

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, 1to3 said:

 

 

Well I gave you my thoughts from what I have understood from reading scripture.

Here is another:

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Can you see beauty and pure good wisdom from this bible verse description of fallen Lucifer? I certainly cannot

Again he is called now an angel of deception, of false light, he can appear one way but it is not how he truly looks like, how his true essence of character has become since the fall.

Do you disagree?

 

 

 

Good day DeighAnn, in Christ Jesus! ,

I have not change my opinion, I do believe Lucifer changed when he became filled with pride and got corrupted. When you get corrupted with sin it works in you.

Gods Holy Words in scripture says that  Lucifer =satan turned from something good to something bad and corrupt.  But that he can present himself still as an angel of Light so to deceive. Even though Lucifer=satan now can transform himself into and angel of light, he still remains and will forever be ugly and his wisdom corrupted.

Lucifers wisdom  the bible says is craftiness.  Craftiness is not a good type of wisdom, because it falls short of Gods pure and Holy wisdom.

Craftiness:shrewdness as demonstrated by being skilled in deception. cunning, foxiness, guile, slyness, wiliness, craft. astuteness, perspicaciousness, perspicacity, shrewdness - intelligence manifested by being astute (as in business dealings)

Lucifers wisdom changed from good wisdom to crafty wisdom, his beauty also changed from pure beauty to deceptive beauty.

Isaiah ,Isaiah 14:16says it well when he states that there is not much to look upon the to true likes of what has become of lucifer satan, and to think he managed to fool so many :

Lucifer changed after the fall, he is now known as satan or at least refereed to as satan in the Holy Bible.

So. yes I see his appearance and wisdom having been changed by his corruption.

How else can I explain? there was a story whether true or not, is not the point)  about Michael Angelo looking to paint Christ, , he looked for a model that appeared wholesome and found one,  and painted a pure wholesome portrait representing Christ, than some years later he was looking for another model to paint  Judas,  and he found the perfect model, This model was the same man who years before looked wholesome, now this same model looked corrupted and harsh, by the corrupted lifestyle he lived.

what I am trying to say? you cannot retain  Pure beauty and pure untainted Godly wisdom when your are completely corrupted inside. Its not possible, or yes it is possible only by means of deception.

I hope you understand me a little better.

 

 

I do understand what you are saying.  I do understand the conclusion.  I just don't see it written that 'his outer beauty' is changed to anything is all I am saying.   

[Starise]

38 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated

 

So that would be the simple answer that never would be made as it would apply to all.  So, to me, there must be a point.  

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

WHY make an excuse?  It's not written, I knew who you would be, not I knew I could count on you, not knew what would happen, but KNEW you. 

What does knew you mean?  

I don't think it is me, per se, that wants to touch that one here.  The Spirit of Gods word is clear and remains that way,  UP UNTIL man gets into the 'letter' of it and taking 'parts' of a whole truth and trying to make each part a truth on its own and then wondering why there is conflict.  I digress.  It fits in this thread because of what came before the fall of Satan and where one stood then.  

Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Acts 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee  18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins,
AND INHERITANCE AMONG THEM WHICH ARE SANCTIFIED BY FAITH THAT IS IN ME. 

 

NO, all the same, God KNEW them before they were formed in the womb.  So what we may see as 'unjust' here in the flesh, isn't, it is just our perception from not possessing all the information

 

 

And it isn't you.  I think you can imagine why I never taught Sunday school or was a preacher.  Communication is not one of my better skills (but I am trying really hard).  

Lower than the angels?  We are in corruptible and able to be killed bodies, and physically away from God while on the earth not having died and had any sort of judgement yet.  

I say these questions cease to be questions when what took place before is taken into account.  

God created Lucifer the full pattern, then he is the serpent in the garden.  

To me NOW, it is so simple and clear it is hard to explain because I don't remember what it was like before knowing this.  I know it was hard to accept at the time but I can't remember why but once I realized the  foundation I was standing on only left me with questions on the simplest of statements and this new foundation always brought answers and clarity and WAY less judgment on everything else, I thought I'd give it a real try.  Gods Word itself will make it go away if it is indeed it is not HIS Truth.  YEars later, I have never found anything in the Word that has made it go away or change me back.  

Nah...It's all good @DeighAnn I'm  slightly ADD in addition to being slightly dyslexic. Long posts tend to glaze me over if I don't hook with it soon. I am constantly typing words backwards and need to go back and correct. It's a wonder I can even read lol. I simply don't always Grok some ways of communicating.

I always enjoy your input and most of the time I get most of it. I notice others DO get it so it must be me at least some of the time.

I hear you saying in a nutshell- GOD KNEW. GOD FOREKNEW. Maybe then you are applying this to what GOD KNEW about the angelic fall and Satan. Even though God KNEW He also ALLOWED. This takes the control out of it for me.

Have you ever asked yourself if God simply decided to make something to see which way it would go? In order to do this He would need to somehow blind Himself to the end results. It's the only way God could ever gamble on an outcome.

In my view I believe this intentional detachment from cause and effect is the only thing that allows Him to give us a will allowing us to determine some things for ourselves without His intervention. What fun is a creation where you already know everything that's going to happen? He has allowed for every possible outcome. He surely has not turned His back on some things while on others I'm not so certain He didn't let wills and choices rule intentionally. Did He know the outcomes? Yes, if He wanted to know then He did. He knows everything He wants to know. 

Maybe I'm wrong and we are all just programmed robots in which case what's the point of any of it? You were always going to do what you were going to do. Why try to minister to the lost? There's a pre programmed outcome for everyone. If you're one of the lucky ones you'll end up in heaven. If not you are eternally doomed.

Surely the blood of His very son was not worth some sort of pre programmed game.

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Starise

[1to3]

24 minutes ago, Starise said:

Surely the blood of His very son was not worth some sort of pre programmed game.

 

Amen! to that, Gods gives us choices, Only He when we have found Him can set us truly Free and restore the years the locust tried to rob from us.

Joel 2:25

Restoration Promised
…24The threshing floors will be full of grain, and the vats will overflow with new wine and oil. 25I will repay you for the years eaten by locusts— the swarming locust, the young locust, the destroying locust, and the devouring locust— My great army that I sent against you. 26You will have plenty to eat, until you are satisfied. You will praise the name of the LORD your God, who has worked wonders for you. My people will never again be put to shame.…

The choice is for us to choose.

2 Peter 1:10

Partakers of the Divine Nature
…9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.…

Edited April 14, 2021 by 1to3

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Nah...It's all good @DeighAnn I'm  slightly ADD in addition to being slightly dyslexic. Long posts tend to glaze me over if I don't hook with it soon. I am constantly typing words backwards and need to go back and correct. It's a wonder I can even read lol. I simply don't always Grok some ways of communicating.

I always enjoy your input and most of the time I get most of it. I notice others DO get it so it must be me at least some of the time.

I hear you saying in a nutshell- GOD KNEW. GOD FOREKNEW. Maybe then you are applying this to what GOD KNEW about the angelic fall and Satan. Even though God KNEW He also ALLOWED. This takes the control out of it for me.

Have you ever asked yourself if God simply decided to make something to see which way it would go? In order to do this He would need to somehow blind Himself to the end results. It's the only way God could ever gamble on an outcome.

In my view I believe this intentional detachment from cause and effect is the only thing that allows Him to give us a will allowing us to determine some things for ourselves without His intervention. What fun is a creation where you already know everything that's going to happen? He has allowed for every possible outcome. He surely has not turned His back on some things while on others I'm not so certain He didn't let wills and choices rule intentionally. Did He know the outcomes? Yes, if He wanted to know then He did. He knows everything He wants to know. 

Maybe I'm wrong and we are all just programmed robots in which case what's the point of any of it? You were always going to do what you were going to do. Why try to minister to the lost? There's a pre programmed outcome for everyone. If you're one of the lucky ones you'll end up in heaven. If not you are eternally doomed.

Surely the blood of His very son was not worth some sort of pre programmed game.

 

No, I believe you are absolutely correct.  And with some 'additions' of my own so a shortened to the point storyline, I hope and is my intent but we'll see. 


 God created his Kingdom and created the host of that kingdom.  I believe it was a perfect place for.....long time.  I believe He created the earth as a place for that kingdom to move into a more 'physical' (for lack of understanding on my part) mode.  I believe that it was sometime after that,  that the one we know as Satan, USING the beauty and wisdom God had created in him,  got to be so big and rich and powerful that AT some point, he corrupted his own mind.  Once that corruption took place,  he started believing his own lies and thought he could make himself God.  He had  turned 1/3 of the host against God and one day GOD GOT MAD and he removed everyone from the earth and rendered  it  null and void and took all light away from it.  

AND that is the beginning of this AGE.  (the end of the ages)

So at that point GOD instead of destroying all he had created decided to put man into the flesh on earth (personally I believe the flesh was to be somewhat of a buffer from evil influences somehow??) and so that each person would be held responsible for themselves, an entity all their own.  Their own thoughts feelings and deeds.  Their choices. 

(Makes me wonder if the promises he makes to himself are because he maybe has gotten really mad and destroyed everything before). 

God would remove all knowledge from what had happened in the past, setting us equal and with plenty of time to give everyone a fair chance.  BUT Satan, corrupted that plan (and has done many things along the way such as moving into the land promised, influx of angles, infiltrating the priesthood, calling for Christ to be killed etc.)   and you know the rest. 

So that is how Satan was Satan in the Garden.  And why wasn't Satan treated like the rest of the host?  Because he and the arc angels will never be born of flesh, they all serve a different purpose than the host.  The battle that was then and the battle that is now and the battle that will separate the sheep from the goats will end it.  

So In the beginning God created the heaven


and the earth

and the earth became null and void and in darkness

And God said 'lights'

Made male and female created and said
RE plenish the earth.  Kind after kind.  

And the blood line through which Christ would come started with Adam .


So when God said he knew, God means 'He knew'.  Jeremiah didn't follow after Satan the first time.  He stood with God.  God knew him.  God knew that from the very first time evil was introduced, Jeremiah didn't want to have any part of it.  He was justified and so COULD BE pre ordained to do for God in this age, no choice really.  

parts of the story I believe.  And having gone back over things I've written in the past, I can't even follow them sometimes,  so I take no offence at not being understood and appreciate you turning it from me, but it really is OK.

[JohnR7]

On 4/12/2021 at 7:29 PM, Shua3000 said:

Does the Bible mention if Satan was banned from heaven before Adam and Eve bit from the forbidden fruit?

The general belief is that Satan was banned 200 million years ago at the time of Pangea when that world was destroyed became the dinosaurs began to devour one another. 

8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down— that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. (Rev 12)

The earth was covered with ice for 200 million years. Jeremiah 4:23 "I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone." Genesis 1:2 "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters".

[Desopixi Seilynam]

Psalms 104 for the most part,
gives a song style creation account in the same general order as Genesis 1.

Therefor we can conclude from the order of Psalms 104:2-4  (kjv)
together with Job 38:4-7 and Genesis 1:1-7,
that the spiritual angels were created some time
just before or during the creation of the sky.

Jesus said He saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18

So we know it happened already, sometime before or during the ministry of Jesus.

-------

Therefore Revelation 12 is an allegory representing all of time.

"When the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,
he persecuted the woman that brought forth the man child." Rev. 12:13

This woman gave birth to the Messiah (12:5)

The Church did not give birth to Christ.

"You have seen what I did unto the Egyptians,
and how I sustained you on eagles wings,
and brought you unto myself" (to Israel, their own nation, in and through the wilderness, they built a temple, and God was there)  Exodus 19:4  Rev 12:14

The woman in Revelation 12 is therefore Israel. Her place is Jerusalem,
at times it has been at peace and safe from harm,
during times of captivity it is not safe.
70 captivities are determined upon Jerusalem.

"Seventy captivities are determined upon thy people
and upon thy holy city ...
and the end thereof will be with a flood ..."  Daniel 9:24-26

Daniel 9:26-27 also speaks of the instillation of the false prophet.

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth a great river
as a flood after the woman" Rev 12:15

Then Revelation 13 speaks of the beast and false prophet.

 

-------
Taking all that into account,
it would seem Satan fell some time during the life of Christ,
perhaps right when He was born, indeed many angles were involved 
with His birth, so perhaps right then there was a spiritual war going on
in heaven as well.

[Justin Adams]

4 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

so perhaps right then there was a spiritual war going on
in heaven as well.

Pretty sure that is correct. Also the star charts indicate an interesting thing.

 

[Charlie744]

Justin, I have already responded to your topic but I have been given this a little more thought.... nothing academic of course, but thinking out loud if you will. 

Consequently, I tried to use a similar approach to this question that I have used in my study in Daniel:

1) I selected a few events throughout the Bible where Satan appears or is mentioned - and where I believed these represent very important / major events. I came up with these three since they represent not just one period of time within the Scriptures -

        a) the first would certainly be the event in the Garden where he deceived Adam and Eve into disobeying God. 

               1) My current feeling here is that this is NOT where satan "fell" from heaven or was "thrown down" to the earth, etc. 

               2) Rather this was a "voluntary" visit by him - up until this time he may have had NO restrictions on where he could go .... he may not have disobeyed God at this point... especially since man was not yet created and he was jealous and threatened by God creating this "special creature" where He would create in His own image ....(creating man as a "living soul" unlike the angels).

               3) But after he deceived mankind into sinning, I do believe satan was kicked out of heaven... Now, he would only have access to the earth. 

                                a) even though he would yet to be destroyed, he like Adam would now face death (prior to this event satan would have never died). Adam would be cast out of Eden, satan would be cast out of heaven.  Adam would lose his immortality and would die a physical death, satan would lose his immortality and "his time would be short" (6,000 years). Both would be removed from the presence of God BUT God would ONLY establish His Plan of Restoration for man - not satan.

       b) the second major event I selected is within the book of Job. Here we find God is using Job to teach us so many things. I believe one of which is to identify the now current environment of satan. Satan has been removed from heaven and is now restricted to "wondering the earth".... this is now his limited domain.

                  1) satan has no access to heaven and meets God here on the earth to complete the events necessary for the writing of the book of Job. Here, God is telling us the following:

                                a) here is where satan will be for the next 6,000 years,

                                b) while he is here on this earth he will be limited in his practices "as God will allow him"...  meaning, even his ability to deceive mankind will be restricted - he will not have physical contact to mankind as he was in the Garden (please note this does NOT mean satan's angels / demons will never have physical access to mankind - because they will. The two demon possessed men had "legions" of demons within them certainly were physically possessed but I believe this and other events during HIS ministry were are the exception - God purposely allowed these demons to invade man FOR HIS GOOD PURPOSE.... THAT HE REVEALED TO EVERYONE HE HAD POWER OVER SATAN AND HIS DEMONS).

           c) the third event would be the coming of the Messiah and His crucifixion. Here satan is allowed to tempt the Lord Himself, but of course, Jesus conquers him and also death. 

                       1) here is when satan is "thrown down to the ground" and is restricted (symbolically) even further --- this is his last outpost until the resurrection where he will indeed be destroyed. 

                                   a) this does not mean that satan's continued deceptions are not ongoing for they will continue until the end... but the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost would replace his presence on the earth and make HIS power and grace available to anyone who seeks Him out.... Our salvation is on an individual basis now and where we surrender ourselves to the HOLY Spirit and bring HIM into our lives will prevent any possibility of satan to come near...... "satan runs from God" not to HIM!

                                          1) symbolically, God has now put satan and his enemies "under HIS feet / footstool" (Acts. 2:34).  

                                                     a) Adam was created out of the dust of the earth and now we find satan will be placed even below that of the dust of the ground --- until the second coming.

I do not know if this answers you question but I have tried to see if some of the major events in God's Plan of Salvation will also reveal the downward flight of satan .... perhaps satan is taken down from heaven to earth to the dust / grown in stages and where God identifies the further restrictions on him ..

Just my thoughts, Charlie

[BeyondET]

On 4/12/2021 at 7:29 PM, Shua3000 said:

Does the Bible mention if Satan was banned from heaven before Adam and Eve bit from the forbidden fruit? Was it Satan that influenced Eve to bite the fruit. Was was the fruit really? 

good question, hmm it appears the subtle of the beast of the field was named by Adam [serpent].

Edited April 23, 2021 by BeyondET