Is the Charismatic Movement Dangerous and Heretical?

[Guest kingdombrat]

18 hours ago, Waggles said:

Home - THE REVIVAL FELLOWSHIP, FRESNO (trffresno.org) 

You're Independent but technically have the same format as Pentecostals.

That's very much like my own environment 

[Paul James]

7 hours ago, Starise said:

Thanks for your comments @Paul James

I would say they don't believe the "gifts" as put forth in the Charismatic movement and therefore they don't see themselves as rejecting anything. At least this has been my experience. Dispensationalists tend to believe the gifts many Pentecostal and Charismatic groups churches emphasize were intended for a certain time and place. They would argue that in emphasizing certain minor gifts this is also a man's opinion or invention. Aside from dispensational belief, God does say there is a time and a place for everything under the sun. How one chooses to interpret this might lead them in another direction. 

I see the whole thing much like a person attempting to make a kite gain altitude on a day when there is no wind. If there is wind the kite will fly. If there is no wind you either need to run yourself to death,find a very large fan or add powered propellers to keep the kite aloft.

This is how I see many assemblies who over emphasize certain gifts as a litmus to spirituality. Tongues seems to come up over and over again and it is one of the LEAST of the gifts.

My argument has always been if it's real and peoples hearts are right then the same things will materialize across any body of believers with open willing Spirit filled hearts. That clearly doesn't happen. It only happens in places where someone is attempting to artificially induce wind into the kite.

Movements that came along in a certain time frame cause me to wonder why it didn't happen more before that? Why did we need a movement for it to supposedly happen? 

Revival has been mentioned. One church I attended had these revivals which were week long nightly church services. Sometimes with a guest speaker, sometimes not. Most of those were simply calls for people to "get right" with God. I believe many people sincerely pulled closer to God through them. I see an element of that in some so called charismatic circles as a group of people who simply want to get right with God. Not necessarily looking for any outward showing of a "gift". I believe God will reward that no matter what you call it. 

I don't ever recall any showing of the "gifts" during any of these revivals. People just went up front. Many of them crying with sincere hearts confessing their sins. Some of them unemotional yet who knows what goes on in a man's heart?

The real danger I see is in laying a guilt trip on people and telling them they will have to give an account to God because they didn't seek the gifts when they had no inclination to do that or any knowledge of a requirement. If God calls us as totally hopeless sinners to Himself then He also inclines us to our calling whatever it is and whatever it involves.

That's just me hollering my .00000000002 but I think it holds some value

Your view does hold value.

Tongues is just another tool in the Holy Spirit's toolbox, in the same way that a crescent wrench is in the mechanic's toolbox.  It is not the most suitable tool for many mechanical tasks, but very useful for some.

Using a Holy Spirit tool depends on what the Holy Spirit wants to achieve through you.  If He wants you to speak encouraging words to a group of believers, He won't use the tool of tongues to do it, obviously, because it would not be the right tool, just like trying to use a screwdriver to unscrew a nut from a bolt.   But if He wants you to intercede for a believer in a special way and use you to speak His mind directly to God, then He will use tongues, instead of prophecy, because you will be praying directly in faith, in the Spirit and the prayer will have power with God.

It all comes down to what and how the Holy Spirit wants to use you in particular situations.  The Scripture says, "Be not unwise but understanding what the will of God is."  This means that we must always be in a position to be aware of how the Holy Spirit is going to lead us, and if He makes it clear that He wants us to do a certain task and use a certain spiritual tool, and we say to ourselves, "No, because that tool belongs to another dispensation", then we are effectively quenching the Spirit, and that is what we will be required to account for at the judgment.   It is not that we decided not to use a certain gift, but that we refused to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit and that someone who would have been on the other end of our obedience missed out on the valuable service that we could have given them in the Spirit.

 

[Waggles]

11 hours ago, Josheb said:

There a lot more gifts given us from the Spirit than just wisdom, words of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophesy spirit discernment, tongues in any of their varieties and the interpretation thereof.

That is completely unscriptural - the word of God identifies nine gifts of the Holy Spirit for the exhortation and edifying of the Spirit-filled church.

And there are nine qualities that are identified as the fruit of the Spirit. 

[Michael37]

33 minutes ago, Waggles said:

That is completely unscriptural - the word of God identifies nine gifts of the Holy Spirit for the exhortation and edifying of the Spirit-filled church.

And there are nine qualities that are identified as the fruit of the Spirit. 

Well hold on, we have these three categories of gifts specifically:

1. 1 Cor 12 = Gifts of the Spirit.
2. Ephesians 4 = Ascension Gifts of Personages for the Perfecting of the Saints.
3. Romans 12 = Ministry Gifts

Rom 12:6-8  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;  (7)  Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;  (8)  Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

I remember being taught that three of the Gifts of the Spirit are related to God's Eyes (what He wants seen), three are related to God's Voice (what He wants said), and three are related to God's Arm (what He wants done). 

1Co 12:4-11  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.  (5)  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.  (6)  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all.  (7)  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

• (8)  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
• to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;  
• (9)  To another faith by the same Spirit;
• to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;  
• (10)  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy;
• to another discerning of spirits;
• to another divers kinds of tongues;
• to another the interpretation of tongues:  

(11)  But all these works that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

[missmuffet]

The body of Christ does not need new apostles, new faith healers or self styled miracle workers. What the Church needs is to return to the Word of God and proclaim the whole counsel of God in the power and love of the Holy Spirit. 

[Slug1]

On 5/9/2021 at 12:43 AM, Marathoner said:

I haven't had the opportunity to welcome you to Worthy yet, my friend. So welcome!

This was my experience as well over the years, though I never remained among any particular assembly for long. I commend you for doing that, brother. 

Ah, but then that wasn't the Lord's will for me. Christ always intended me to walk where I am now. Places such as this are where He's been sending me since that day when He baptized me in His Spirit. 

Those children of the devil whom I stood against in the wilderness? The drugs they trafficked and manufactured in places inaccessible to vehicles and helicopters are sold on the streets where the Lord has me now. Instead of affiliates of MS-13 I find myself surrounded by other gangs who are just as depraved and equally brutal. Yes, children of the devil in every sense of the word. 

I have witnessed their comings and goings... I know who their couriers and mules are. I know their schemes and what they perpetrate in the darkness. I know the one whom they serve, and the bodies of the slain and the horrific drugs they create (mixtures of five or even seven different drugs) is their calling card, if you will. The children of the devil are merely servants of those powers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places. 

I suppose you could say that the mission field is where I belong, @Slug1.

Marathoner,

In ways, I can relate. While I haven't walked the streets you have, God in all His sovereignty, has placed me in places most would not expect a Christ follower to be. I also understand why He's had me walk where and how I have over the years. Being in the trenches can be a difficult walk yet by faith and allowing God to fill us (empower us), His mighty work and bright light will shine in the darkest of places.

Thanks for the welcome brother.

[Slug1]

On 5/9/2021 at 2:11 AM, Paul James said:

 

The interesting thing for me was that when I left the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement I didn't stop praying in tongues.  I then realised that my gift was not church-based, but securely founded in the New Testament which is not corrupted or affected by any church I might attend.

 

Paul, while finding great interest in all your post, this one part really jumped out for me. Resisting multi-quoting your entire post as I focus :-)

While I was serving God at the Pentecostal church, at the beginning of those 12 years, I wondered and eventually asked, about how charismatic "activity" is turned on when in a service and turned off, when not in a service?

I was struggling with God because while I (at this time in life) accepted that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were active, I could not fathom that ONLY those labeled "Charismatic" were gifted with such gifting  To add too this, I knew many in the church personally, how they were as people outside the church and while covert Christians outside the walls of the church... just seemed God was #1 only when inside the walls of the church. 

To compound all this, before I continue, for years (before this time in life), I was a cessationist concerning God supernaturally empowering the Body of Christ. Loooong testimony. Anyway, I found myself in a church that fully accepts the gifts of the Holy Spirit and as I posted earlier, seemed to be (was) out of control at times during a service.

My struggle at the time was understanding that "each" member of the Body of Christ will be given "manifestation" of the Spirit. The reason is simply, for the edification/profit of all...

1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 

I believe (now) that should this verse be viewed as intended, all in the Body would experience what the Apostle Paul was led to teach us. With proper discipleship as the Apostle Paul provided (as led), "any" church today would be in order and in full empowerment by the Holy Spirit. There would not be any schism between churches or denominations because the Holy Spirit would be "allowed" to empower all in the Body as the scripture shows us.

Based on my experience in holding to a cessationist doctrine that bordered bondage for many years in my youth, due to what that church of my youth believed and enforced legalistically, I have lived both ends of the extreme when it comes to God's power manifesting (or lack there of), through His Body (the Church).

Anyway, about year 2.5 in that church where God had me serving, a new pastor took over and began to "disciple" the church and the "chaos" soon came to a halt.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Slug1

[JohnR7]

On 5/8/2021 at 6:47 AM, Whyme said:

 I made so many mistakes in life that the memory of them haunts me. How do i escape that torture? 

Thngs can be like a tape recorder and play themselves over and over. We can stop this tape in Matthew 18:8b " whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven".  My experience is that God does not deal with the memories, He goes back in time to deal with the event itself. That brings about the healing we need today. I say this from our perspective. From God's perspective he declares the end from the beginning and He watches over His word to perform what He says He will do. He has a plan and a purpose of what He wants to do in our life. People say they feel convicted but I always feel encourage. WE can be who God wants us to be and we can do what God wants us to do. Old things have passed away and all things are made new. (1Cor5:17)

[JohnR7]

On 5/11/2021 at 12:03 AM, Paul James said:

The doctor concluded that it was a "temporary" arthritis

Spontanious remission is usually the term they use when people receive a miracle. Although sometimes they say there must have been a error in the test results and there never was a problem in the first place. I have had miracles where my chance of being alive were one in 1200. 

[Paul James]

4 hours ago, Slug1 said:

Paul, while finding great interest in all your post, this one part really jumped out for me. Resisting multi-quoting your entire post as I focus :-)

While I was serving God at the Pentecostal church, at the beginning of those 12 years, I wondered and eventually asked, about how charismatic "activity" is turned on when in a service and turned off, when not in a service?

I was struggling with God because while I (at this time in life) accepted that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were active, I could not fathom that ONLY those labeled "Charismatic" were gifted with such gifting  To add too this, I knew many in the church personally, how they were as people outside the church and while covert Christians outside the walls of the church... just seemed God was #1 only when inside the walls of the church. 

To compound all this, before I continue, for years (before this time in life), I was a cessationist concerning God supernaturally empowering the Body of Christ. Loooong testimony. Anyway, I found myself in a church that fully accepts the gifts of the Holy Spirit and as I posted earlier, seemed to be (was) out of control at times during a service.

My struggle at the time was understanding that "each" member of the Body of Christ will be given "manifestation" of the Spirit. The reason is simply, for the edification/profit of all...

1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 

I believe (now) that should this verse be viewed as intended, all in the Body would experience what the Apostle Paul was led to teach us. With proper discipleship as the Apostle Paul provided (as led), "any" church today would be in order and in full empowerment by the Holy Spirit. There would not be any schism between churches or denominations because the Holy Spirit would be "allowed" to empower all in the Body as the scripture shows us.

Based on my experience in holding to a cessationist doctrine that bordered bondage for many years in my youth, due to what that church of my youth believed and enforced legalistically, I have lived both ends of the extreme when it comes to God's power manifesting (or lack there of), through His Body (the Church).

Anyway, about year 2.5 in that church where God had me serving, a new pastor took over and began to "disciple" the church and the "chaos" soon came to a halt.

In the 12 years I was a member of Pentecostal churches I was fortunate to experience a good range of different church groups where some were the out of control types that you experienced, and others where very little was seen and the service was little different to an ordinary Baptist service.   I was fortunate to be trained by a strict traditional Methodist Holiness based Pentecostal pastor who taught me what I know about the ministry of the Spirit.  He said that anyone who desired to move in the gifts needed to be a man of prayer and of the Word.  He never allowed kundalini, out of control behaviour in his services, and if anyone started up like that, he would stop them and would not hesitate to tell them that what they were doing was not of God.

The trouble with independent Charismatic churches like Bethel, Hillsong, Copeland's, and others like them, is they have departed from sound Reformed doctrine based on written Scripture, which was the foundation of Traditional and Historical Pentecostalism.   In these independent groups, the lunatic fringe which used to be in the minority, has become the norm.  This is because they have put the written Scriptures aside as "the dead letter" in favour of the "voice" of the Spirit (whatever that spirit may be), and "new" revelation not found in the New Testament.

Recently, I have been involved in a prophetic ministry, where the gifts are properly taught according to Scripture, and prophecies given are recorded for accountability purposes.  A recorded prophecy can be studied along with Scripture to verify that the prophecy is consistent with the Scripture and therefore true and not false.  On a Prophetic Day, the morning is taken up with sound teaching from experienced and mature men and women in the ministry of the Spirit, and the afternoon is taken up in supervised workshops.  This is not teaching people to manifest the gifts, but to monitor the manifestations and to correct any errors.  Often we have had the Holy Spirit become involved and these workshops have been a learning experience and a blessing for those who would have been frightened to just launch out in a public service.

I am in favour of a Spirit-controlled service being conducted decently and in order, with the leader giving opportunity for the gifts to function by welcoming anyone who has a prophetic word to write it down and submit it to the leadership before the meeting, and to have a section of the service set aside for those who wish to give a tongues message and interpretation, and a prophetic word, with someone standing by with a recording device to get a record of what is being said.  When people go up for prayer at the end of the service, the music should be quiet, and no one speaking through the microphone.  Having someone yelling though the mike like a Commanche Indian along with loud electrified music just doesn't mix with trying to hear prayer requests at the altar.   Personal Words of Knowledge and Prophecies should always be recorded, and only those recognised in the church as having those ministries (usually elders) should be permitted to give them.  I believe that the "Mr Spock" approach to manifesting the gifts of the Spirit, using calm, collected self-controlled faith, is the best way of ensuring that the true gift is being manifested.

Actually, I have written a book that describes all this, and if you want to PM me, I will attach a copy.