Is the Charismatic Movement Dangerous and Heretical?

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Paul James said:

Today I have been part of a spirited discussion in the John MacArthur Facebook group concerning his quote that the Charismatic Movement is dangerous.  Some of the commenters have accused Charismatics of being demon possessed.

I referred to 1 John by way of challenge to say that accusing brothers and sisters in Christ of being heretical, demon-possessed and therefore dangerous to the body of Christ, is expressing a form of hatred for Charismatics in general and therefore falling well below what the Lord requires of the standard of love toward our brothers and sisters in Christ that show evidence of being truly filled with the Spirit.

Jesus said that having even negative and resentful thoughts about others is equivalent to hating them.   Of course, the anti-Charismatic folk on the Facebook page accused me of being hypocritical, even though I'm not even a Charismatic, but a Presbyterian in a Union Methodist/Presbyterian church.

So, I asked them how they defined "Charismatic", and so far they have not answered me.

I wonder, what is your definition of "Charismatic"?  It would be interested to know what people thought of Charismatics and who they actually are.

Hi Paul James,

Good topic to discuss. Now we know that the Apostle Paul taught his disciples the `whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27) He then went on to warn them of the dangers that were to come. and over the centuries we can see that many errors came in. Then also we note that the Holy Spirit, sent by Christ the Head of the Body, has been clarifying the `lost` truths for many years. 

We think of Luther and believing salvation is by faith in Christ and not an organisation. Later other truths came to the fore - believers baptism, (Baptists) holy living, (Methodists) infilling of the Holy Spirit, (Pentecostals), spiritual gifts across the whole Body, (Charismatics) 5 fold ministries, (Apostolic) and so on.

Each of these `movements` started with a few people and then became set in an organisation. Over the years this has led to errors in all those groups for the Holy Spirit is not stagnant. Man desires to contain God`s movements however the Holy Spirit moves throughout the Body of Christ to all who would receive the fresh truth, (restored).

After WW2 with Israel becoming a nation, we realise that that is the terminal generation before the Lord comes to deliver them. For the Body of Christ however, the Lord has been doing a quick work to bring His Body to maturity in Himself.

Thus we saw the great evangelists such as Billy Graham preaching to millions upon millions throughout the world bringing salvation to them. (`50`s)

Next in the `60`s we see the Holy Spirit sweeping across denominational boundaries and bring the wonderful revelation of the infilling of the Holy spirit to bring growth individually and to the Body as a whole.

Next in the `70` the shepherds arose to disciple new believers.

The `80`s brought people like Derek Prince who taught from God`s word the truths that were needed.

The `90`s saw the prophetic movement and then in the new century recognition of apostles, till finally in our time the final truth is `holding fast to the head,` and not man or the organisation.

Thus we can see the great sweep of truths that the Holy Spirit has been revealing to the Body so as to bring it to maturity in Christ. So I am saying that we should appreciate all that Christ the Head of the Body is doing by His Holy Spirit, (as he said he would, John 16: 13 & 14) and that we should also realise that with every revelation of truth there is a great conflict and errors of man. Thus we read of the tossing to and fro by every wind of doctrine..(Eph. 4: 14).

It is a battle and if we are to become `overcomers,` (Rev. 3: 21) we need to be very careful as to what we receive and believe. 

So...Charismatics, those who believe in spiritual gifts are believers down through the centuries and only recently given a name to a movement of the `60`s onwards. As with all movements there is error amid the truth. The key is to not become labelled but receive the truth and keep focused on the Lord.

regards, Marilyn.

[Starise]

If Charismatics were to be compared to music. Lawerence Welk would be the Presbyterians and the Lutherans. Charismatics would be the goth rockers.

If they were compared to drugs the Baptists would be aspirin and the Charismatics would be the hard drugs.

The people I associate with the movement want ALL of it in spades. None of this namby pamby pretend. They want to go in both feet first to the real thing. The problem with that type of outlook is- in pulling out all of the stops at any price sometimes that price is trading common sense and the willingness to maybe accept things that bypass biblical mandates. I happen to think the bible is pretty important here so to bend it just a little to get a thing to happen isn't wise.

While I commend them for their zeal in seeking everything God has for us I can't in all honesty condone everything that's going on in that movement. Here's the wiki link for anyone who doesn't know the history of the movement or what it really is. It came from the Penetcostal movement which at times isn't far from those people who pick up rattle snakes in the name of the Lord.....so yes, in that sense they have a point. Charismatics have great potential to be dangerous IMHO mainly because they look for external outcomes in the form of "gifts" which can sometimes look like the world wrestling federation meets so far as hype and crowd effect.

The things that people see in these types of services can only come from three sources

- A genuine work of the Spirit in a person

-The person's theatrical ability

-a demonic work posing as a spirit work

That last point is reason enough to remain skeptical for me. If we know it ain't God, who is it then? So yes, some of them COULD POSSIBLY be filled with the wrong spirit or spirits. In fact I think it opens the door to that sort of thing more since people attend these services with the expectation for outward spiritual manifestation to happen. You don't come looking for that usually in the Baptist or Methodist church. If it happens regardless as the result of something God is doing, then it's a rare and much appreciated event if hearts are right. IF God in fact does "it" whatever "it" is, then He certainly doesn't go looking for only assemblies that hype spiritual gifts. It's going to happen wherever and whenever He wants it to happen.

Manifestations of the spirit are given not conjured.

[Marathoner]

Hello @Paul James, it's good that you initiated this topic. I understand what Charismatic means in the purest sense of the word (it's contextual), meaning one who believes that the gifts of His Spirit are active in us now as they have been since the day of His outpouring on Pentecost. There was nothing like it prior to this occurrence --- the fulfillment of prophecy found in Joel 2 --- for before God poured His Spirit upon all flesh, He only did so with comparatively few (the prophets). 

My understanding is further defined by my acknowledgement of (and experience with) the Spirit circumcising our hearts and hiding our lives in Jesus Christ, the One who sent the Spirit of God forth on the day of Pentecost, which I recognize as the hour of our salvation in the Son of the living God; and the baptism of His Holy Spirit which for some, arrives after our baptism in which we were buried with Christ and subsequently raised with Him in newness of life. 

We remember the brethren whom Paul encountered in the book of Acts. Was their salvation in Christ necessary, or was their baptism in the Spirit yet to come? It was indeed the latter and so they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. 

Such was the case with me, brother. The hour of my salvation in Jesus Christ came a very long time ago for I both believed and confessed that Jesus Christ had come in this flesh, calling upon Him as my Lord and God. This was God's gift to one so undeserving. All who do so are saved, for the spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God.

I write with hindsight provided by the illumination of His Spirit. There was a work which Jesus Christ intended to display in me which would be expressed over the fulness of time, and so my baptism in His Spirit would not come until His work was made manifest. Too much to delve into detail here, so touching upon it serves the purpose. 

I'm a witness of the Lord by His election and purpose for His Spirit called me out of this world according to His purpose (never attended a church nor read the scriptures); and according to His will I suffered until that fruit which was pleasing to Christ was displayed to the consternation of His enemies. They could not overcome Him nor His beloved for who can stand against the Lord God Almighty? When the trial was complete, the Lord Himself lifted me up and poured His Spirit upon me in such a way that I overflowed with a new song of praise and thanksgiving to Him, my Deliverer and the Lover of my soul. 

I don't look at denominations which speaks of my background in the Lord, brother. Denominations had no part in my salvation in Christ. I look to my brothers and sisters instead for they are where the Spirit of the living God rests on this earth.  

I suppose I am indeed Charismatic by definition and I'm not ashamed of the power of Christ in the least, which I witnessed from the beginning and continue to witness to this day according His will and purpose. I recognize the gifts of His Spirit in my brethren and I recognize the work of Christ in others, even those who are unaware of His work. That has nothing to do with me, it's the gift of His Holy Spirit so I might be a witness of His marvelous works on earth and in the heavenly places.   

Edited May 9, 2021 by Marathoner
typo

[Starise]

15 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Hello @Paul James, it's good that you initiated this topic. I understand what Charismatic means in the purest sense of the word (it's contextual), meaning one who believes that the gifts of His Spirit are active in us now as they have been since the day of His outpouring on Pentecost. There was nothing like it prior to this occurrence --- the fulfillment of prophecy found in Joel 2 --- for before God poured His Spirit upon all flesh, He only did so with comparatively few (the prophets). 

My understanding is further defined by my acknowledgement of (and experience with) the Spirit circumcising our hearts and hiding our lives in Jesus Christ, the One who sent the Spirit of God forth on the day of Pentecost, which I recognize as the hour of our salvation in the Son of the living God; and the baptism of His Holy Spirit which for some, arrives after our baptism in which we were buried with Christ and subsequently raised with Him in newness of life. 

We remember the brethren whom Paul encountered in the book of Acts. Was their salvation in Christ necessary, or was their baptism in the Spirit yet to come? It was indeed the latter and so they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. 

Such was the case with me, brother. The hour of my salvation in Jesus Christ came a very long time ago for I both believed and confessed that Jesus Christ had come in this flesh, calling upon Him as my Lord and God. This was God's gift to one so undeserving. All who do so are saved, for the spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God.

I write with hindsight provided by the illumination of His Spirit. There was a work which Jesus Christ intended to display in me which would be expressed over the fulness of time, and so my baptism in His Spirit would not come until His work was made manifest. Too much to delve into detail here, so touching upon it serves the purpose. 

I'm a witness of the Lord by His election and purpose for His Spirit called me out of this world according to His purpose (never attended a church nor read the scriptures); and according to His will I suffered until that fruit which was pleasing to Christ was displayed to the consternation of His enemies. They could not overcome Him nor His beloved for who can stand against the Lord God Almighty? When the trial was complete, the Lord Himself lifted me up and poured His Spirit upon me in such a way that I overflowed with a new song of praise and thanksgiving to Him, my Deliverer and the Lover of my soul. 

I don't look at denominations which speaks of my background in the Lord, brother. Denominations had no part in my salvation in Christ. I look to my brothers and sisters instead for they are where the Spirit of the living God rests on this earth.  

I suppose I am indeed Charismatic by definition and I'm not ashamed of the power of Christ in the least, which I witnessed from the beginning and continue to witness to this day according His will and purpose. I recognize the gifts of His Spirit in my brethren and I recognize the work of Christ in others, even those who are unaware of His work. That has nothing to do with me, it's the gift of His Holy Spirit so I might be a witness of His marvelous works on earth and in the heavenly places.   

With all due respect I appreciate what the term means to you personally. The term carries other connotation to others who have seen and had different experiences.

This is the danger in terms as wide stroke descriptions, that we don't all have the same associative or experiential identification to a term. It's one thing to describe how a movement came to be, but another to be in attendance at a Charismatic service where people are "slain" in the spirit. A situation where speaking in tongues is a demand placed on attendees in order to be fully spiritual. There are lots of things happening under that tent.

[Michael37]

42 minutes ago, Starise said:

The things that people see in these types of services can only come from three sources

- A genuine work of the Spirit in a person

-The person's theatrical ability

-a demonic work posing as a spirit work

Good points, Starise.

I have observed a flip side to genuine works of the Spirit that manifests in control by domination, intimidation, manipulation, and seduction.

Once I visited a Pentecostal congregation for the first time and noticed the "pastors wife" scrutinising me intensely from a distance with body language that spoke of territorial hostility. I later had my discernment confirmed by the widow of the former pastor who had experienced the same spirit from this person. For some reason these "hostile controllers" think they are preserving the integrity of the fellowships they are in but I am wary enough to withdraw from such.

Gal 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

[Marathoner]

16 minutes ago, Starise said:

With all due respect I appreciate what the term means to you personally. The term carries other connotation to others who have seen and had different experiences.

This is the danger in terms as wide stroke descriptions, that we don't all have the same associative or experiential identification to a term. It's one thing to describe how a movement came to be, but another to be in attendance at a Charismatic service where people are "slain" in the spirit. A situation where speaking in tongues is a demand placed on attendees in order to be fully spiritual. There are lots of things happening under that tent.

Which is why I articulated what the word means to me, @Starise. Isn't that what we do here? Share what we have been given?

Yes, I'm aware of the connotation to others and the sharing of my testimony makes it perfectly clear that I wasn't brought up in manner familiar to most (including yourself), something which I share in common with my precious sister @clancy. Like me, the Lord literally snatched my sister from this world and claimed her as His own. 

I've faced condemnation and accusation because of this, my friend. I've been called accursed and cast out on account of that which the Lord has done, so I marvel that I never encountered such things by the hand of two small Charismatic congregations I visited with. The Lord most assuredly sent me to these (comparatively) tiny gatherings of His holy ones... one was literally a fellowship who met in a rented shack on the side of the highway, and the other met in a one-room building in a town of 1,000. They existed in the shadow of larger and more affluent churches in that little town. Their well-worn sign was swallowed by an old elm tree but I found them anyway.

Am I defending those who accuse and condemn? Am I also required to answer to you? Not in the least. If you ask for understanding then "with all due respect," you must first be willing to extend the same to others.  

Edited May 9, 2021 by Marathoner

[Starise]

3 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Which is why I articulated what the word means to me, @Starise. Isn't that what we do here? Share what we have been given?

Yes, I'm aware of the connotation to others and the sharing of my testimony makes it perfectly clear that I wasn't brought up in manner familiar to most (including yourself), something which I share in common with my precious sister @clancy. Like me, the Lord literally snatched my sister from this world and claimed her as His own. 

I've faced condemnation and accusation because of this, my friend. I've been called accursed and cast out on account of that which the Lord has done, so I marvel that I never encountered such things by the hand of two small Charismatic congregations I visited with. The Lord most assuredly sent me to these (comparatively) tiny gatherings of His holy ones... one was literally a fellowship who met in a rented shack on the side of the highway, and the other met in a one-room building in a town of 1,000. They existed in the shadow of larger and more affluent churches in that little town. Their well-worn sign was swallowed by an old elm tree but I found them anyway.

Am I defending those who accuse and condemn? Am I also required to answer to you, my friend? Not in the least. If you ask for understanding then "with all due respect," you must first be willing to extend the same to others.  

I felt I had to play devil's advocate here. Nothing directed at you personally.

I say this because I want readers to get the full message about this movement. God has absolutely worked in small congregations of all kinds as compared to larger assemblies and I have no doubt He worked in your situation.

Everyone is free to make their own judgements on the movement which are likely  based on personal experience. I can't safely say all is well in this movement in spite of some good things happening here and there. I can't say, there's nothing to be wary of in every case. Like anything else I think we are to try the spirits to see which are of God and which are not.

I am putting the idea out there that there is POTENTIAL for the evil one to get a foothold. I guess this goes without saying it can happen anywhere. When we open the doors up to spiritual forces I think we should always be wary what those forces are. The Charismatic movement is especially prone to it IMHO.

[Guest kingdombrat]

The example we have from Redding California, once Assemblies of God, now Charismatic, seems so far fetched it's hard to believe things like this exist without the video proofs [which we do have].

 

You have a spiritual leader who claims you can reach the heavens [basically out of body experience = WITCHCRAFT], they are lying on GRAVES trying to regenerate the [Spirits = Demonic Possession], and clear videos of wives holding their husbands ties like a dog leash while the husbands are on all four moving around like a pet [Khundalini].

 

Honestly, it was the most disturbing thing I've watched when we think of Spiritual matters.

 

And the one thing I just started Rebuking the video like it could hear me, was a leader of a "Movement" where he and his wife were shaking their heads as fast as possible left to right/right to left/over and over while READING the Word of God!

 

I am literally amazed how [fooled] these people have become.

 

Each time I think of that video I want to pull a Jesus in the Temple when He slammed the Merchants tables and items to the ground as He chased the Den of Thieves away!

 

It made me so angry I wanted to physically take these leaders and bash their heads together until my arms got tired.  It's sickening!

[Whyme]

5 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

The example we have from Redding California, once Assemblies of God, now Charismatic, seems so far fetched it's hard to believe things like this exist without the video proofs [which we do have].

 

You have a spiritual leader who claims you can reach the heavens [basically out of body experience = WITCHCRAFT], they are lying on GRAVES trying to regenerate the [Spirits = Demonic Possession], and clear videos of wives holding their husbands ties like a dog leash while the husbands are on all four moving around like a pet [Khundalini].

 

Honestly, it was the most disturbing thing I've watched when we think of Spiritual matters.

 

And the one thing I just started Rebuking the video like it could hear me, was a leader of a "Movement" where he and his wife were shaking their heads as fast as possible left to right/right to left/over and over while READING the Word of God!

 

I am literally amazed how [fooled] these people have become.

 

Each time I think of that video I want to pull a Jesus in the Temple when He slammed the Merchants tables and items to the ground as He chased the Den of Thieves away!

 

It made me so angry I wanted to physically take these leaders and bash their heads together until my arms got tired.  It's sickening!

Well said. 

[Marathoner]

I have spoken for them before and I will speak for them again, with the caveat that I'm writing about my Charismatic brothers and sisters here and now. I'm not ashamed of the power of Jesus Christ nor do I seek to gnash my teeth upon anyone who bears the witness of Christ and the testimony of His Spirit. This has been done to me and continues even now, and I will never do such a thing to another. 

There is no "test" one must pass to be accepted into their midst. I was never tested, not once, for the people of these tiny assemblies stood in a line to welcome me when I entered through the door. They accepted me as one of their own. Behold how they love their neighbor and brethren. This is how the Lord said we will be known to the world: the love in our hearts expressed by our actions toward all.

I wasn't judged by my appearance. I looked like a mountain man, like someone who spends all of their time in the desolate places of this world. This was true because I was indeed someone who lived far beyond the confines of their homes and those electric lights which obscure the night sky.    

I was never once asked "Do you speak in tongues?" nor "Have you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?" They already knew the truth for themselves just as I knew the truth about them, that we are one in Jesus Christ. All I said was, "It's the greatest of blessings to visit for a time with you all!" They embraced me and said, "We hope you feel welcome here."

I bore witness to the ministry of His Spirit and His gifts in their midst. This was my introduction to the gift of discernment which my Lord and God bestowed upon me so I would recognize and thus bear witness to His grace, His voice, and the agency of His power on this earth. It wasn't enough that I witnessed His grace and power toward myself, it was needful that I witness the same Lord in others and through others. 

I know nothing about grumblings, accusations, and the like which burden others like a stone draped around the neck. I pay no heed to such things because we are encouraged to focus ourselves upon those things which are good, lovely, and altogether edifying to all. These congregations were Charismatic and so I will not refuse to testify of the truth because the truth offends some.