Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[WilliamL]

On 6/23/2021 at 4:52 PM, Josheb said:

The "things which must take place after these things" are still at hand according to Rev. 1:3 and 22:10. The book begins AND ends with that qualifier and in no way excludes "things which must take place after these things" from its opening and closing qualifier. Your interpretation may say otherwise, but the actual words of Revelation do not. 

And we are directly told in now uncertain terms not to add or subtract from it. 

If, as you claim, everything prophesied in Revelation was "at hand" in the time of John, then that even includes the new heavens and the new earth; meaning that the old heavens and the old earth have already vanished, and the New Jerusalem has already come down from heaven. Which doctrine is, I am confident to say, the vast majority of Christians would know, is patently absurd.

So, that being said, the only other possibility is that SOME things prophesied in Revelation were at hand -- obviously being the things spoken to the 7 churches -- and other things were NOT at hand, but were to take place "after these things." Which is my position. Those "after these things," which begin in chapter 4:1, include the Great Tribulation mentioned in 7:14.

So please make your position absolutely clear: are you saying that everything prophesied in Revelation "was at hand," and therefore took place in John's day? including the following:

Revelation 22:5 There shall be no night there; and they have no lamp nor light of the sun...
 

[WilliamL]

5 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I read it as written. I do not make any claim about what is written other than what is stated. I don't subjugate God's word to history; I base my understanding of history in submission to God's word.. as written as stated. 

As you understand what is stated. As is always the case when one interprets what a Scripture means. But when an interpretation lacks evidence, then it is highly suspect.

You cannot provide any evidence for the heavens and the earth fleeing away, and no place found for them (20:11); for the kings 0f the earth having been killed in battle by the Lord descending with His armies out of heaven (19:11ff.); for the creation of new heavens and earth, and heavenly Jerusalem descending upon the new earth; and so many other prophetic events promised in Revelation. In short, your understanding lacks any credible evidence.

But you are welcome to your views, and I will continue to believe that the Lord is coming soon for His bride.

[WilliamL]

23 minutes ago, Josheb said:

What do you mean by "soon"?  When is that going to happen, William? Be specific. Don't hide; just answer the question: What do you mean by "soon"? 

Looks like Daniel 11:40 is closing in. The events of which lead to the Great Tribulation of Daniel 12:1.

[Alive]

Fellas...the TOS line is being crossed. Keep the finger pointed at the subject matter.

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

When's that happening?

Read the book of Revelation, the world Will mourn when they saw Jesus coming on the cloud, as He said like a thief in the night.

[WilliamL]

  

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

I do NOT interpret what it means. I do not create differences between what is stated and what is meant. ... It is in fact what scripture objectively, undeniably, observably states.

And there -- in "undeniably" -- is the root of the issue: this assumption of infallibility in this explanation for this Scripture.

What has been the fruit of that doctrine? for we shall know whether a belief system is good by its fruits. The doctrines of dominion and infallibility that came from this belief – particularly that Rev. 20 was already fulfilled – underlay the Roman Catholic Church's assumption of authority to kill "apostates and heathen," not to mention Jews. Millions upon millions of them, people of every belief and sect and nationality throughout the centuries, continuing to the present day.

It all began in the 4th century, after the authority of the Church came to be backed by the authority of the Empire, resulting in the creation of the Whore of Babylon, "drunk with the blood of the saints." The Church whored itself to the state. Before the end of that century, the Church condemned for heresy, then tortured and executed a Spanish bishop, Priscillian. Authority plus infallibility begat ecclesiastical tyrany, which unleashed myriad evils over the following centuries.

The pope even now claims infallibility under this same doctrine.

Pride, hubris, arrogance, and ruthlessness of ecclesiastical authority derive from this doctrine: these are its evil fruits.

[WilliamL]

11 minutes ago, Josheb said:

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 And there -- in "undeniably" -- is the root of the issue: this assumption of infallibility in this explanation for this Scripture.

It should not be assumed I think my approach infallible.

Then your approach is deniable. Can't have it both ways.

[Leonardo Von]

Quote

Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

Jesus will rapture the Church three and a half days after the half of the seventieth week of Daniel.