Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Behold]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

 

I only meant that you stated your conclusions as absolute and it is possible that some are not.

I have not stated here on this Thread, that  what i believe is "absolute".

Listen, i stated in my very first post to this Thread that :  "

 """"2nd Thess. 2:7 = Lets look at this verse.  And i'll not try to position it, to achieve a theological solution to "pre", "Mid" or "whatever.

I'll let the reader of Thread's like this one, just have it as a consideration."""

 

So, all ive done here, or would ever do regarding this infinite rabbit trail type Thread, is offer my thoughts, as i see it, "for your consideration"....as i originally said.

See, 1000 Theologian in a big room, debating this Topc for 100 yrs, will never agree  on "post, mid, or pre".   Its just the way it is, as this is that one topic that creates endless division.

What i believe, i have offered for you to consider, but i have not said that my POV here, is  the final doctrine for all readers .......

What i can tell you is that mine makes sense, and it fits the big picture.    So, like it, hate it or love it, it is a teaching that explains things simply, and i believe, accurately.

So, don't say that i proclaimed my POV as what must be accepted, as, i would never do that, regarding any topic.   What i teach, the HS reveals, or not, to each reader, who finds what i am teaching to be new to them.

And the other issue with this topic, is that its useless.  Its a useless topic because unless there is agreement, then nothing goes forward, nothing is gained.

Not with this topic.   Never with this topic., as its a rabbit trail for most believers, as most believers dont have 10 verses memorized, so how can they expect to hear anything related to a topic such as this Thread's or our discussion,  and knowingly evaluate it?

Christianity is full of very inexperienced evaluators, and so, its a rare thing for me to even offer my theology on this topic, as i know better then to do it, but, i enjoy conversation here....so, its no biggie.

We  sort of had a conversation., tho it might have been more interesting for me, had you offered your end time theology instead of just defining mine as "suspect".........:)

Maybe it is brother, or maybe you will come to see it in a completely different light sooner then you would expect.

That'll do it for me, here.

 

God bless,

 

 

B

Edited December 11, 2019 by Behold

[Alive]

15 minutes ago, Behold said:

I have not stated here on this Thread, that  what i believe is "absolute".

Listen, i stated in my very first post to this Thread that :  "

 """"2nd Thess. 2:7 = Lets look at this verse.  And i'll not try to position it, to achieve a theological solution to "pre", "Mid" or "whatever.

I'll let the reader of Thread's like this one, just have it as a consideration."""

 

So, all ive done here, or would ever do regarding this infinite rabbit trail type Thread, is offer my thoughts, as i see it, "for your consideration"....as i originally said.

See, 1000 Theologian in a big room, debating this Topc for 100 yrs, will never agree  on "post, mid, or pre".   Its just the way it is, as this is that one topic that creates endless division.

What i believe, i have offered for you to consider, but i have not said that my POV here, is  the final doctrine for all readers .......

What i can tell you is that mine makes sense, and it fits the big picture.    So, like it, hate it or love it, it is a teaching that explains things simply, and i believe, accurately.

So, don't say that i proclaimed my POV as what must be accepted, as, i would never do that, regarding any topic.   What i teach, the HS reveals, or not, to each reader, who finds what i am teaching to be new to them.

And the other issue with this topic, is that its useless.  Its a useless topic because unless there is agreement, then nothing goes forward, nothing is gained.

Not with this topic.   Never with this topic., as its a rabbit trail for most believers, as most believers dont have 10 verses memorized, so how can they expect to hear anything related to a topic such as this Thread's or our discussion,  and knowingly evaluate it?

Christianity is full of very inexperienced evaluators, and so, its a rare thing for me to even offer my theology on this topic, as i know better then to do it, but, i enjoy conversation here....so, its no biggie.

We  sort of had a conversation., tho it might have been more interesting for me, had you offered your end time theology instead of just defining mine as "suspect".........:)

Maybe it is brother, or maybe you will come to see it in a completely different light sooner then you would expect.

That'll do it for me, here.

 

God bless,

 

 

B

OK--you have gone into several things here in this last post. I understand.

To the substance of what occurred in the few exchanges prior--we were discussing the activity or lack of activity of the Holy Spirit during the Trib and the MA.

Perhaps its more accurate to say the degree of activity of the Holy Spirit during that time.

It is to those particular assertions you made regarding this-- that I responded to, which when reading you perceived as insulting. That was far from what was in my heart, nor what was obvious in the words typed.

It was up until that moment (the accusation of my being insulting), that I thought we were having good and thoughtful conversation.

I agree that much of this is rabbit hole terrain. Just as I have opined in a few threads. However, I have become interested of late, in what my various brothers have to say on the matter and have endeavored to be faithful to an openness to hear each point of view. The act of opining that a point of view may not be so, is not the act of indicting a brother to be in error.

I consider myself and rightly so, to be a novice learner on these things. However, that does not mean that I am not able to think and respond.

I remain interested

[OldCoot]

8 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

Clearly stated, but will be ignored because humans love to let their traditions of man make void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), here we are told of "the coming of our lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him".  This was not separated, or have any first time, or second time, or thirtieth time.  We are told when Jesus returns we will be gathered to him, but then told clearly "let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come....that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God".  If you can not figure it out yet by the descriptive language, we are told that satan will be on Earth before Jesus comes and Christians are gathered to him....the "let no man deceive you by any means", is God winking at the rapture 2,000 years ago saying people are going to be telling you trash lies about you being gone before this all happens, but don't listen.

Witnesses:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Second Witness from Jesus Christ himself, which will also be ignored in favor of traditions of man, Matthew 24:15 lines up perfect with 2 Thessalonians 2:3, satan will be here in the newly built temple.  Now the hints of no pre-trib rapture from 2 Thessalonians 2:1+2 when it says "by our gathering together until him....for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away", we see in Matthew 24:22 "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."  The tribulation was shortened for our sake, so it would not be too hard to bare, because if it lasted as long as originally planned then none of us would be gathered by Jesus when he returned because we would all have fallen to satan's lies by then. As we are told in Matthew 24:31 when Jesus returns "immediately after the tribulation", Jesus "shall send his angels...they shall gather together his elect".

 

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

Here is where Behold is misunderstanding again, the Tribulation is for the Christians...or so called. The devil does not need lying wonders, God does not need to send strong delusion, that non-believers should believe a lie.  Non-believers and the wicked already worship satan, if they know it or not, they are part of his kingdom on Earth here as you are either a Christian or you are not.  So no reason for satan to come pretending to be Jesus and lie about being Jesus, so he could deceive the non-believers, he is targeting the Christians.  Why? God tells us, "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved".  This rapture theory is one example of Christian  "pleasure in unrighteousness", because it is not about trusting God or being willing to stay strong for God to prove themselves, the rapture is about scared frauds not wanting to be here during the tribulation since it will be hard and trying.  All Christian beliefs now, even by Behold's words, "justification by faith"...what?  Lazy.  "James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"  Belief is nothing without proving it, anyone can say they are a good person, but based on what?  What did you do to classify you as a good person? Why should you go to Heaven when so many go to Hell? Is the only difference between those that go to Hell and those that go to Heaven the gift of faith?  If that was true, then that makes God a sinner, as he breaks his law and declared himself a respecter of persons. "Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Not by faith, everyone that "worketh righteousness, is accepted with him".

 

Witness:

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

As we see "in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them", which goes with "2 Thessalonians 2:8 then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming".  What people don't understand, is that the "reapers" are the demons and satan, God will send to gather the tares with lies and God will allow them to believe the lies because the tares did not love the truth and rather live in safe ignorance of being raptured away....that they don't need to follow God's law as they live by Grace...that they don't need to repent, because God makes them so they no longer sin.....that they don't need to do works, just watch tv all day, because they are justified by faith....all easy road traditions of man, believed by people wanting an easy life with no consequences for their actions, but there will be consequences.

You did an extensive treatise there and made some pretty bold claims regarding details.  Could you also please expand on that and make you case from the OT also?  After all, that is a requirement of the Torah and the Bereans in Acts 17 set the example of how that Torah requirement is put into practice.  The Torah says that a matter can only be established on the testimony of at least two witnesses.  The Bereans showed up how that is applied... they searched the scriptures (OT) daily to see if what Paul taught them was true.  Paul's teaching makes up a significant portion of the NT.  And they were praised for that setting that standard.  So, any matter, even eschatology, has to have corroborating evidence from both NT and OT on every detail you outlined.

I am convinced that the OT paints a different picture than you have.  Also, that many of the ancients also did not hold to what you are alleging.  Even a text from Gad the Seer, circa King David period, mentioned in the OT as early as 2 Samuel 24, approx 1000 BC, talks about the righteous escaping the great calamities that will come upon the earth in the latter days.  The scroll of Gad the Seer was found in the Qumran community scrolls.  Dr. Ken Johnson has recently published a full translation of the scroll.

And anyone who trusts in Yeshua (Jesus) is by default "scared" as you describe it.  They are escaping the judgement and punishment that all who reject Yeshua are going to get.  So even trusting in Messiah is essentially "escapism".  And I have no problem claiming that I  am at the front of the line and no one is going to knock me out of line.  I have trusted in Messiah and His redemption not only because I believe He is the one true God, but also that I can escape the the punishment due those who are guilty of His death and rejecting Him.  

And we are all guilty of His death.   In the Torah, a murderer is to be put to death by the next of kin.   But a person guilty of unintended murder, what we would call manslaughter, could flee to a city of refuge and be protected from the next of kin.   Yeshua said on the cross "they know not what they do", meaning we are guilty of manslaughter and not murder.  Yeshua is my city of refuge.  I have fled to Him so that I am forever protected from the wrath of the Father, the next of kin.  Those who do not flee to Yeshua... well, I think you get the picture.

Once one really appreciates what the ekklesia / church is and its relationship to the Messiah, then things about the time coming upon the earth seem to get a little clearer.  And what that tribulation period is all about and what it's intended purpose is and it does not have the redeemed ekklesia / church in view.

And that is really the crux of the matter.  The major disagreements about a rapture, when it happens, etc seem mostly to stem from a misunderstanding  of ecclesiology (study of the Church)  and not so much eschatology (study of future things).  

Edited December 12, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

12 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I noticed you didn't deal with my point that the descriptions of a rapture in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, involve the coming of Christ. 

 

Its interesting that the Bible calls the rapture of the saints, the coming of Christ, yet pre-tribbers don't like to call that the second coming. 

Well, let's take a look at what the second coming actually is.....

Acts 1:11 (NKJV) who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

He left the literal, physical earth.  The second coming is to the literal, physical earth.  But...

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions [ chambers, rooms, quarters]; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

And Hippolytus, a student of Irenaeus, 2nd Century AD, "On the Antichrist", 64b,  comments regarding Isaiah 26 that these who enter their chambers are the raptured Saints of the ekklesia / church being hidden from the tribulation period.

And Paul capitalizes on what Isaiah wrote.....

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

And Jude expands even further....

Jude 1:14-15 (NKJV) Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

For Him to come with ten thousands of His saints, by default He had to have gathered them to Him at a time previous to His coming to execute judgement.  And Isaiah, along with several other passages states that it is before the judgements and wrath come upon the earth.    So the literal second coming and the gathering of the righteous are not even close to being the same event.

We can debate the timing of the gathering / removal / rapture, but that is occurs before the judgement and wrath of the Lord upon the earth is established in both OT and NT.  And as the Torah requires, any matter can only be established by at least two witnesses.  And the Bereans set the standard on how that is applied.  Confirmation from the OT and NT, the two witnesses.

And there is a lot more that can be shown from the OT.  

Edited December 12, 2019 by OldCoot

[ARGOSY]

21 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Well, let's take a look at what the second coming actually is.....

Acts 1:11 (NKJV) who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

He left the literal, physical earth.  The second coming is to the literal, physical earth.  But...

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions [ chambers, rooms, quarters]; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

And Hippolytus, a student of Irenaeus, 2nd Century AD, "On the Antichrist", 64b,  comments regarding Isaiah 26 that these who enter their chambers are the raptured Saints of the ekklesia / church being hidden from the the tribulation period.

And Paul capitalizes on what Isaiah wrote.....

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

And Jude expands even further....

Jude 1:14-15 (NKJV) Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

For Him to come with ten thousands of His saints, by default He had to have gathered them to Him at a time previous to His coming to execute judgement.  And Isaiah, along with several other passages states that it is before the judgements and wrath come upon the earth.    So the literal second coming and the gathering of the righteous are not the same event.

We can debate the timing of the gathering / removal / rapture, but that is occurs before the judgement and wrath of the Lord upon the earth is established in both OT and NT.  And as the Torah requires, any matter can only be established by at least two witnesses.  And the Bereans set the standard on how that is applied.  Confirmation from the OT and NT, the two witnesses.

Exactly, two or three witnesses. We are gathered earlier on that day, I keep agreeing with you that we are gathered first, then the wrath occurs. Where we may differ is that I believe it all occurs on the same day, the day of the second coming. 

Multiple verses confirm that the gathering into the clouds occurs at the coming of Christ. Your post confirms this, as do the two main descriptions of the gathering  as per 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15. 

Does the second coming occur on the same day as a day of wrath and destruction? 

Read this folks, 1 Thess 4/5:

we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,  for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

Confirmed again, our gathering is associated with the day of the Lord, the thief in the night, and destruction of the ungodly, just as per the gathering of the saints in the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24 at the second coming. 

Are there two comings, two gatherings, two last trumpets, two resurrections. No folks, just one. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by ARGOSY

[OldCoot]

19 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

Does the second coming occur on the same day as a day of wrath and destruction? 

Not according to Isaiah.  The redeemed enter their chambers which I am convinced are the chambers that Yeshua describes in John 14 as being in His Father's house.  And according to Isaiah, they are to stay hidden until the indignation (calamities) have passed.  Hippolytus (2nd Century) implied the very same thing.   I am not convinced that all the judgements and wrath the the Lord pours out will be done in one day.  It very well seems to be a lengthy process according to the Revelation.

Also, the passage and context, both general and specific, of 2 Thessalonians 2 shows that this gathering / removal / rapture will occur before the son of perdition is revealed.  One would have to really do some serious gymnastics to try and make the claim that this son of perdition / man of sin / antichrist character is only revealed at the same day that the Lord returns.

Edited December 12, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

7 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

Confirmed again, our gathering is associated with the day of the Lord,

throughout scripture, both OT and NT, the "day of the Lord" is not a literal 24 hour day.  It is a period.  One should really do a study on "day of the Lord" and "that day" in scripture.  In the OT especially, it is reference to the period of the Great Tribulation.  So yes, our gathering is associated with the "day of the Lord", but that doesn't imply that the gathering happens on the literal 24 hr period of the day of His physical return.  A lot happens during "that day" which refers to a period of time longer than a literal 24 hour day.

[ARGOSY]

27 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Not according to Isaiah.  The redeemed enter their chambers which I am convinced are the chambers that Yeshua describes in John 14 as being in His Father's house.  And according to Isaiah, they are to stay hidden until the indignation (calamities) have passed.  Hippolytus (2nd Century) implied the very same thing.   I am not convinced that all the judgements and wrath the the Lord pours out will be done in one day.  It very well seems to be a lengthy process according to the Revelation.

Also, the passage and context, both general and specific, of 2 Thessalonians 2 shows that this gathering / removal / rapture will occur before the son of perdition is revealed.  One would have to really do some serious gymnastics to try and make the claim that this son of perdition / man of sin / antichrist character is only revealed at the same day that the Lord returns.

You would need  gymnastics to support you view, the straightforward reading of the text, is that our gathering does NOT occur until the antichrist is revealed:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,  not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will Not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed

 

That's straightforward until Pretrib start messing with the logic. They mustn't be concerned that they missed some big events, they haven't missed anything, the antichrist will be revealed FIRST. 

 

As for two old coots agreeing on a verse in Isaiah, that's neither here nor there, what verse? 

Edited December 12, 2019 by ARGOSY

[OldCoot]

22 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

just as per the gathering of the saints in the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24 at the second coming. 

 

the address is given to the Hebrews.  All thru Matthew 24, the events are the ones those in Israel will experience first hand.

Also, the "elect" of Matthew 24:31 is more likely a reference to Jacob / Israel.  From Isaiah...

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

And these "elect" being gathered from the four winds...

Ezekiel 20:34-38 (NKJV) I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord God.
37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

Ezekiel 20:41-42 (NKJV) I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers.

confirmed in Isaiah....

Isaiah 11:12 (NKJV) He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 43:5-6 (NKJV Strong's) Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west;
6 I will say to the north, 'Give them up!'
And to the south, 'Do not keep them back!'
Bring My sons from afar,
And My daughters from the ends of the earth—

 

[OldCoot]

2 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

As for two old coots agreeing on a verse in Isaiah, that's neither here nor there, what verse? 

See previous post.  I gave the verses in Isaiah I and the "old coot" Hippolytus are referring to.