Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[JoeMo]

I am very impressed with the scholarship and objective debate people are having here.  And thank you all for making me feel welcome and comfortable.

Could it be possible that you are all correct in where the Father's house will be?  His house (temple?) is wherever He is.  Now it's in heaven.  When Jesus returns, it will either be in heaven or here on earth (depending on where you think we will spend the Millennium). After the Millennium, it will be in the New Jerusalem.  God will prepare a home for us wherever He is.

This is just my opinion.  In general, I find these discussions stimulating, interesting, and a great motivation for further study.  I also believe that we can only speculate on how prophecies will be fulfilled in the future.  I believe one of the main reasons for prophecy is to give us an opportunity to look back and say "Wow! That happened exactly the way God said it would happen!".  It builds our faith.

OLD COOT - I'm right there with you on the 70th week of Daniel!  I couldn't have said it better!

Blessings to you all.

[Resurrection Priest]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, JoeMo.

No problem. Eliyahuw ("Elijah"), Hanokh ("Enoch"), and Mosheh ("Moses") have all died. NONE OF THEM were translated to "heaven," as a place. The first two were carried off somewhere else to end their existence, and Moses was buried in a secret place. They shall be resurrected at the time when the Messiah returns, just as we.

Oh, and in the first post on page 153, which part don't you get?

I don't believe that Enoch or Elijah or those resurrected by Christ just after He was raised, were "carried off" to another location "to end their lives".  Nope!  Don't believe it. 

John was given a vision of the throne room of God.  There John saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads." (Rev 4:4).

In v.8, "the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." v.9-10  "And they sang a song, saying;  You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth." 

"Shall reign" - is in the FUTURE TENSE. 

I believe the twenty-four elders were in Heaven when John saw them, many years after Christ returned to sit at the Father's right hand.

They were "redeemed" by the blood of the Lamb.  That means they are human beings.

They were of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  Which means they are NOT ALL LEVITE.  These are Melchizedek priests. 

They have been made (are being made - aorist tense) kings and priests, to reign on the earth.  

The twenty-four elders are human beings, in heaven, waiting for the time when they will "reign" on the earth. 

These kings and priests, were holding bowls of incense - which represent the prayers of the saints still on earth.  They are acting as priestly mediators, which WAS one of the roles of the priests.  We today, pray for others. 

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I don't believe that Enoch or Elijah or those resurrected by Christ just after He was raised, were "carried off" to another location "to end their lives".  Nope!  Don't believe it. 

John was given a vision of the throne room of God.  There John saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads." (Rev 4:4).

In v.8, "the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." v.9-10  "And they sang a song, saying;  You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth." 

"Shall reign" - is in the FUTURE TENSE. 

I believe the twenty-four elders were in Heaven when John saw them, many years after Christ returned to sit at the Father's right hand.

They were "redeemed" by the blood of the Lamb.  That means they are human beings.

They were of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  Which means they are NOT ALL LEVITE.  These are Melchizedek priests. 

They have been made (are being made - aorist tense) kings and priests, to reign on the earth.  

The twenty-four elders are human beings, in heaven, waiting for the time when they will "reign" on the earth. 

These kings and priests, were holding bowls of incense - which represent the prayers of the saints still on earth.  They are acting as priestly mediators, which WAS one of the roles of the priests.  We today, pray for others. 

Could they be 12 from before Moses and 12 after Moses and before the Cross? Do any folks consider those from other lands that benefited from 'general revelation'?

Western Hemisphere...

[Resurrection Priest]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Resurrection Priest.

No. One must CAREFULLY read the Scriptures before making assumptions:

I must say to you Retrobyter, you are speaking dismissively here - to me.  I HAVE carefully read the Scriptures for 41 years.  I am not "making assumptions". 

Because I do not always agree with your view, does not mean I have not "read" or "studied" - including the context. 

[Resurrection Priest]

18 minutes ago, Alive said:

Could they be 12 from before Moses and 12 after Moses and before the Cross? Do any folks consider those from other lands that benefited from 'general revelation'?

Western Hemisphere...

I believe it very possible there may be 24 "courses" of elders.   King David divided "the priesthood" into 24 courses, with each course serving at the Temple for 2 weeks at a time, plus all the priests served during the Feasts.  (See 1Chronicles 24:6.)  If that is the case, then the number resurrected from that time before Christ is greater than just 24 individuals.

[Alive]

5 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I believe it very possible there may be 24 "courses" of elders.   King David divided "the priesthood" into 24 courses, with each course serving at the Temple for 2 weeks at a time, plus all the priests served during the Feasts.  (See 1Chronicles 24:6.)  If that is the case, then the number resurrected from that time before Christ is greater than just 24 individuals.

Yup--I recall you mentioning this before. I agree that there are many more than 24 and that that number is somehow representative. I have no proof but common sense. Understanding who is declared righteous and how outside of the Cross is one of the things I look forward to learning on that day. I suspect there will be a very large surprise. Our God is Gracious and Merciful. The years as I have aged convince me of this. In my youth, I thought I knew a great deal. In my later years, I don't seem to know so much. Rather He seems to have zeroed in on a relatively short list of important things.

[Resurrection Priest]

47 minutes ago, Sonshine said:

Greetings, @OldCoot ....

Yes, the second advent (the return of Jesus Christ as King of Kings and Lord of Lords) brings in the millennium.  The Great White Throne Judgement comes next, followed by the Great White Throne Judgment.... and then, hallelujah!, the New Jerusalem descends from heaven!  Wow!

I don't believe Isaiah 26:20 is referencing the kind of "mansions" as described in John 14:3.  Let's look at Isaiah 26:20:

Isaiah 26:20:  "Come My People, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee:  hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast."  

God is telling His people to go into their inner chambers and shut their doors and hide from the antichrist.  Actually, we Christians will be hiding in Christ who is our Protector.  Amen?

In John 14:2, you see the "mansions" I made mention in my previous post. 

John 14:2:  "In My Father's house are many mansions:  if it were not so, I would have told you.  I go to prepare a place for you."  

It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble.  This resting place is in Christ and the Father.

 

I personally have a different view concerning the millennium during which we will reign with him as "priests of God and of Christ" (Rev. 20:5-6).

I believe we will reign during the 8th millennium - NOT the 7th. 

I believe we will need preparation and healing, before we can serve under Yeshua to "rule the nations" as "kings and priests" of the order of Melchizedek.

I believe we will spend the 7th millennium in the Heavenly realm, in the New Jerusalem - the place He has prepared. 

I believe the earth will be completely decimated by the trumpet and bowl plagues.  Everything will be "burned up".

2 Peter 3:10  “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

Hebrews 6:7-8  “For the earth . . . if it bears thorn and briers, it is rejected . . . whose end is to be burned.”

Hebrews 1:10-12 [God the Father speaking to His Son]  “You Lord, In the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands;  they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing; like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end.”

At the 8th millennium, Jesus will heal and restore the earth and we will return "to the land".  Then there will be a huge resurrection.  Nations in the four corners of the earth.

Those resurrected after the 1000 years of the 7th millennium, will be "the rest of the dead" (Revelation 20:5-6). 

I do not believe "the rest" will be all of the wicked from 6000 years.  No. 

Those hardened in rebellion will be resurrected and judged at the Glorious Return (Second Coming).

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (NIV)

Resurrecting multitudes to "shame and everlasting contempt" is a forever judgment.  Leaving them to be burned up with the earth, is execution.  It would be overkill to resurrect them again, to be judged again, to be executed again. 

Two kinds of people are resurrected at the Return of Messiah. 

But there is a third group - "the rest" - who do not "live again until 1000 years have passed". 

When "the rest" are resurrected, those who were part of "the first resurrection" will be ready to serve as priests to govern and teach these people. 

Some will come to Christ.  Some will not (they will gather to the Gog/Magog army of rebellion). 

I believe "the rest" will be human beings who lived and died in ignorance or immaturity.  They could not choose.  I do not believe our God will abandon them. 

 

[Alive]

6 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

 

I believe "the rest" will be human beings who lived and died in ignorance or immaturity.  They could not choose.  I do not believe our God will abandon them. 

 

I agree. I don't know how or when this will work out, though.

I am convinced that we saints and priest 'In Christ'--will be used to teach and bring multitudes to Christ.

Some of this is more dim because I believe that natural living people will continue to be born and never die on and on in the new heaven and earth.

I think He might have a spare universe ready and waiting and it is meant to be filled, or this one will be 'renewed' and meant to be filled.

Eternity is a long time.

[Resurrection Priest]

During the 7th year - the "rest" year for "the land", nothing was to be sown or harvested. 

If the 7th millennium is a "rest" for the earth, why would we think, we will "rule the nations" and turn many to righteousness, during THAT millennium?

Israel was to "sow again" in the 8th year.

Someone here quoted  1 Corinthians 15:24  “Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.”

God called Israel his "firstborn". 

Exodus 4:22  “Israel is my son, my firstborn.”  

I believe that every faithful believer is an Israelite.  We are collectively "Israel" - the firstborn (Heb. 12:23).

So when will Yeshua present us - His "firstborn" to God the Father - as a perfect offering - complete, restored, cleansed and healed?

It seems logical - on the 8th Day. 

2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Circumcision took place on "the 8th day".   If this was a prophecy, when will we finally be perfectly circumcised in heart?  Answer:  the 8th day. 

Priests had to complete a 7 day consecration - inside the Tabernacle.  They began to minister as priests on the 8th day.  The Tabernacle represented "heaven itself". 

Lepers had to complete a 7 day ceremonial cleansing to be declared "clean".   We are lepers.  We will be priests.

Any Israelite who had touched the dead, had to be "cleansed" with the ashes of the Red Heifer, on the 3rd day and the 7th day.  (Numbers 19:11-20).  At sundown of the 7th day, he would be declared "clean".  The 8th day begins at sundown of the 7th. 

No one of us can serve as a priest during the 7th millennium.  We won't be fully "clean" until the start of the 8th millennium. 

"A thousand years is as one day" 2Peter 3:8. 

 

 

     

 

[Resurrection Priest]

BACK to THE RAPTURE

1 Thessalonians 5:2&4  “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.  But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.”

    Revelation 3:3 “... if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.”

So the "coming" will come as a surprise only to those who will not watch, and are "in darkness" (willful ignorance). 

    2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

Wow!  This coming will be sudden and will be a surprise to the majority,  but it will definitely NOT stay a secret!   It will be loud!