Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[farouk]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you think that we feed the natural body or the spiritual body with the body and blood of Christ? 

Do you think God allow any part of us in which He dwells to go into the corruption of the earth or do you think that is just a place for the spiritually dead that have died aka THE DEAD?

 

Interesting question.....

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

I can only go by the scripture.  Revelation 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection consists of those
1.  on whom the second death hath no power and those
2.  who are priests of God and of Christ and reign with Him a thousand years.  

So how do these play into that picture of first resurrection, AS IT IS WRITTEN, since you can only go by Scripture?
 

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders says to me, Not do weep Behold, has overcome the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll and the seven seals of it  (3528 nikáō(from 3529 /níkē, "victory") – properly, conquer (overcome); " 'to carry off the victory, come off victorious.' The verb implies a battle")

6 And I saw in midst of the throne and and of the four living creatures and in midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as HAVING BEEN SLAIN, having horns 7 and eyes 7 which are the 7 Spirits of God having been sent out into all the earth

7 And He came and took out of the right hand of the {One{ sitting on the throne

8 And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb having each a harp and bowls golden being full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints KJV

In Greek order
Rev 5:9  And they are singing a song new, saying, Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open the seals of it because  You were slain and
You purchased to God by the blood of You
out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation

Rev 5:10 and You have made them to the God of us a kingdom and priests and they will reign upon the earth

Rev 5:11 And I looked and I heard voice of angels many around the throne and the living creatures and of the elders and was the number of them myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands

Rev 5:12 saying in a voice loud Worthy is the Lamb HAVING BEEN SLAIN to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing!

Rev 5:13 And every creature which in heaven and upon the earth and under the earth and on the sea is and in them everything, I heard saying To the {One} sitting on the throne and to the Lamb blessing and honor and glory and might to the ages of the ages

 

If not from THEM THAT SLEPT, those who graves had opened, those who had been captive and set free, those who's bodies had risen, those who He had led when He ascended...

after He got the keys and took the power from death and hell over GODS PEOPLE by becoming the atonement for sin, paying the ransom, tasting death so we don't have to....

THEN WHERE?

And since THAT took place 2000 years ago....how can a FIRST RESURRECTION come at different times if it is not of type but of time?


 

 

[DeighAnn]

10 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

They were in the grave.  That is why it is called being raised.  

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body

I agree

[Diaste]

You certainly seem convinced. I find a few apparent contradictions in the text.

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

BECAUSE  NONE OF THE 2nd body, the SPIRITUAL BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT of one already 'come to life' WILL ever descend into HELL, LET ALONE BE DESTROYED IN HELL.  

Maybe not, depending on how 'hell' is defined. Is the the 'grave' for you or eternal torment? And how do you know? 

 

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

AND I don't stop there but continue on to believe what is written AFTER THAT SO

I BELIEVE THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BORN FROM ABOVE,
HAVE ALREADY DIED,
HAVE ALREADY RISEN,
HAVE BECOME A NEW CREATURE,
HAVE RECEIVED THEIR CITIZENSHIP IN HEAVEN,

 

I'm with you on 3 of the above points but 'already risen'? Is this meant to be in some metaphysical way? Risen from what? I mean, I'm still here, I have not died. As far as I know you haven't died.

I get the 3 concepts above in a spiritual sense: Died to the former things, died to the world, a new creation in the Spirit being transformed in our mind, and certainly Jesus has prepared a place for us where He is. 

Already risen, though....

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

having been baptized NOW

follow Him, NEVER DYING, just as He said because they

 

Surely the spirit never dies, no matter if that spirit is of the righteous or unrighteous. I think you need to make the distinction here as to just what you mean.

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

KNOW THE WAY
and THE LIFE 
and THE RESURRECTION

and being RAISED UP IN THE SPIRITUAL BODY, exactly as written

FOLLOW HIM TO THE PLACE HE IS,

So you are saying that if I die today, that I immediately get a spiritual body, go to live with Jesus, also immediately, and immortal in heaven, immediately?

Is that correct?

 

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

MADE POSSIBLE by the NEW COVENANT

that the shedding of His blood brought ABOUT

AND HIS WORK ON THE CROSS and IN THE GRAVE, where He went for 3 days to preach to those 'WHO SLEPT' and being held captive by death, 'paying the wages', set them free

SHOWN to be true by the 'graves opening up and the bodies being seen'

What doe that mean, 'those who slept'? Are you saying that before Jesus resurrection believers slept? Like they were slumbering, unaware, not in a 2nd body, not in heaven with Jesus?

If you are, then what is the difference between that and,

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

Would not these be the same?

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And now US, under the New Covenant don't come into condemnation but have already passed from death to life

Spiritually. Not physically.

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

and now AT THE DEATH OF OUR ADAM FLESH 

HIS BLOOD WASHES US aka our spiritual body/soul/spirit clean

and instead of descending into the CORRUPTION we RISE and follow Him

If we are already risen they why is the resurrection such a big deal? So we die, rise up, have new bodies, but then are resurrected later? And we don't sleep like Paul said we do?

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

where HE comes to meet us, HIMSELF, and brings us to GOD, where we sit at the judgment seat of CHRIST which is for the LIVING (not the GWTJ which is for THE DEAD)

because He ALREADY GOT the KEYS TO HELL AND DEATH.  

 

Then how and why the need for the resurrection at the last trump of those 'who sleep' in Christ? Would they not be in the grave to be resurrected at His return and "the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.?

Paul is saying the living meet the dead who were just resurrected at the coming of the Lord, at the last trump, in the clouds, meeting the the Lord in the air, and then to be with the Lord forever. 

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

ONLY 'the dead' now descend into hell, death, the grave, the corruption of the earth.   THE DEAD have no knowledge of the way, or the resurrection.  They go to their 'baptism' in hell, and they REMAIN DEAD in hell because they DON'T FOLLOW HIM, they WAIT for His return.  

Seems to contradict 1 Thess 4:13-17.

 

[seeking the lost]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The first resurrection consists of those
1.  on whom the second death hath no power and those
2.  who are priests of God and of Christ and reign with Him a thousand years.  

So how do these play into that picture of first resurrection, AS IT IS WRITTEN, since you can only go by Scripture?
 

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders says to me, Not do weep Behold, has overcome the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll and the seven seals of it  (3528 nikáō(from 3529 /níkē, "victory") – properly, conquer (overcome); " 'to carry off the victory, come off victorious.' The verb implies a battle")

6 And I saw in midst of the throne and and of the four living creatures and in midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as HAVING BEEN SLAIN, having horns 7 and eyes 7 which are the 7 Spirits of God having been sent out into all the earth

7 And He came and took out of the right hand of the {One{ sitting on the throne

8 And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb having each a harp and bowls golden being full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints KJV

In Greek order
Rev 5:9  And they are singing a song new, saying, Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open the seals of it because  You were slain and
You purchased to God by the blood of You
out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation

Rev 5:10 and You have made them to the God of us a kingdom and priests and they will reign upon the earth

Rev 5:11 And I looked and I heard voice of angels many around the throne and the living creatures and of the elders and was the number of them myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands

Rev 5:12 saying in a voice loud Worthy is the Lamb HAVING BEEN SLAIN to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing!

Rev 5:13 And every creature which in heaven and upon the earth and under the earth and on the sea is and in them everything, I heard saying To the {One} sitting on the throne and to the Lamb blessing and honor and glory and might to the ages of the ages

 

If not from THEM THAT SLEPT, those who graves had opened, those who had been captive and set free, those who's bodies had risen, those who He had led when He ascended...

after He got the keys and took the power from death and hell over GODS PEOPLE by becoming the atonement for sin, paying the ransom, tasting death so we don't have to....

THEN WHERE?

And since THAT took place 2000 years ago....how can a FIRST RESURRECTION come at different times if it is not of type but of time?


 

 

It is not that complicated.  Jesus was involved in all of these things that you mention.  Jesus has full knowledge of these events and relates them to John.  John relates these things to us.  Jesus tells John, "this is the first resurrection".  Because of the source and reliability of the source, I can with assurance say this is the first resurrection.

[Selah7]

17 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

And since THAT took place 2000 years ago....how can a FIRST RESURRECTION come at different times if it is not of type but of time?

The First Resurrection to immortality is a one-time event.

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Hi Retro,   

So far, no one have ever been able to show me how to go from this, to that.  Where is it you SEE pre trib anywhere is these verses?  Have you broken them down to the Greek and everything?   

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Well, I don't anymore. There was a time when I was younger that I would have seen it because I was TAUGHT IT! 

See, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 DOES talk about a "rapture," a "harpazoo," a "snatching away." Strong's Greek Dictionary gives us ...

726 harpazoo (harpazo) ἁρπάζω (har-pad'-zo). From a derivative of 138 haireomai; to seize (in various applications):
-- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

But, the little word "up" was added to verse 17. I believe that it was added because the passage DOES say that we "meet the Lord in the air," but the word "up" does not belong there. In fact, its presence is misleading.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Is this or is this not CONCERNING those who have 'gone to sleep' from here, 

It is indeed. Those who are "asleep in the Messiah" are those who belong to Him but have died before His arrival.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And have they NOT, just like Jesus risen again and followed Him there?

No. They follow Him AFTER they are raised to life! God is not bringing Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) "from Heaven"; He is bringing Him "to Israel!" And, He is bringing those who were resurrected, WITH HIM "to Israel," as well!

This is what I NEVER understood when I believed in pretribulational rapturism!

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Which then moves on to those who will be ALIVE and REMAINING when He comes?

No. Those who are still alive when the Messiah returns shall NOT precede those who are "asleep in the Messiah"; those who are alive and remain FOLLOW the ones who were "asleep in the Messiah!" That may SOUND like the same thing, but it's a matter of perspective.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And isn't that at the LAST TRUMP, the 2nd Advent?

Where do you FIND a 'direction' change from the 'descend' He is heading, to an 'ascending back to heaven'?   Why is He bringing all the souls with Him if He is just returning?

See, I DON'T find a direction change! And, He is NOT bringing all the souls (which is an INTERESTING choice of word) "with Him "ascending back to heaven!!"

He JUST GOT BACK TO EARTH! Why WOULD He turn around and head back?

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

IF both of the verses you quoted here are for PRE TRIB then what verses speak to the 2nd Advent? 

Somehow, you have this strange idea that I'm "pre trib!" I'm NOT! I said I USED TO BE "pre trib" long ago! It IS talking about the Second Advent!

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And it is at THAT TIME that

[2 Thessalonians 2:8-9]

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Isn't that the exact same thing as 

[Revelation 20:1-3]

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Which comes after 

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Which is basically the EXACT SAME TIME as 1 Thess and 1 Cor?

Yes, for the most part. You've left out a key verse in Revelation 19, however. Verse 20 is the verse that corresponds to 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9:

Revelation 19:19-21 (KJV)

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Again, you're "preaching to the choir."

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

making any PRE TRIB impossible TO BE the TIMING? 

Again, this also just backs up the same TIMING, doesn't it?  

[1 Corinthians 15:50-52]

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



HOW can any of these verses you have given here be pre trib?


Are they not all concerning those who HAVE DIED, as in Adam

who have been quickened and already risen, as in CHRIST

Following Him to where He is, as in Never die, having received the gift of Salvation

and returning with Him, 'and the armies of heaven' to sit upon the thrones as in Rev 20?

and aren't those who BELONG TO HIM the ALIVE AND REMAINING, those who have over come and endured to the end without taking the mark of the beast? 

Again, you're "preaching to the choir." I never said I believe NOW in pretribulational rapturism; what I SAID was, "the 'rapture' is a biblical doctrine." We DO get "seized" (or "snatched" in the British vernacular used in Harry Potter movies) and "meet Him in the air" when He comes! We just don't "go to Heaven for 7 years," or even "for 3.5 years!" THAT'S what is wrong with pre-trib rapturism!

When we are seized, we are taken up into the sky, but NO HIGHER! We are flown to the Middle East to be with our Lord, and to help in the war!

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Maybe not, depending on how 'hell' is defined. Is the the 'grave' for you or eternal torment? And how do you know? 

Because GOD DWELLS IN US.  We don't become 'a sinner' at the death of the flesh body.  The 'soul' is not destroyed.  The flesh goes back to dust.  We never die.  It is raised a spiritual body.  Eternal life doesn't BEGIN after death.

ONE OF the reasons for the NEW COVENANT was so that those who LIVED under Gods laws, didn't have to GO and pay the wages of death because they had a sin.  God knew no matter how hard we tried, without the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, and without FORGIVENESS of sin being a provision in THE LAW, SOMETHING had to CHANGE so the Spiritually dead would go to where the wages of sin were paid but THOSE MADE ALIVE to go to where THE GOD OF THE LIVING and not the dead was.  That is why WE, THE SAVED, don't go to the place of the dead (Christ did that work for us) but FOLLOW HIM.  He comes to us and receives us TO HIMSELF (NO ANGELS GATHERING US)  and brings us to the Father.  OUR JUDGEMENT takes place in heaven at the judgment seat of Christ.  We receive  in THAT body the things done in this body.  We RETURN with Him when He returns.  

and when He returns the DEAD are raised.  NOT THE LIVING.  The living, the saved are RETURNING with Him.  The dead, even though they are RAISED doesn't mean that 'receive' life as IN THE ETERNAL LIFE WE received through faith BECAUSE THEY CAN SEE and there is NO DOUBT that the kingdoms of the world are now under the Rod of Iron.  The DEAD are going to have to do works to get their names in the book of life.  The DEAD are going to have the LIVING ruling over them.  The LIVING are going to be priests so that the DEAD can make a choice.  At the end of the 1000 years THE DEAD will stand in judgment, THE LIVING already stood in judgment in heaven when they followed Him to the place He went to prepare for us.  The place we 'rest from our labors' WITH THE GOD OF THE LIVING.  


IT IS not just a story of WORDS.  IT is a REALITY no different that this reality, just in a different realm.  


To be 'eternally tormented' one would need to be ALIVE.  The lake of fire DESTROYS BOTH the body and soul.  THEY VANISH, like smoke going up and disappearing.  

There is actually NO REMEMBERING of them, they are 'of the former things'.  

That is why the LOF is called the 2nd death, not the eternal torment.  WE DON'T GET TO MAKE DOCTRINES OUT OF WORDS or even single verses.  It is precept on precept precept on precept, verse by verse verse by verse AND THEN we take the here a littles....and THEY FILL in the blanks. 

To be perfectly clear on what I believe

HELL is where the spiritually dead in their spiritual bodies DESCEND.  

HEAVEN is where the spiritually living in their spiritual bodies ASCEND. 

We have a GOD over us, they have one over them.  

They go into the corruption 'under the earth', WE go to the throne of GOD in heaven ABOVE the earth.  Can the one place see the other in that realm?  I don't know.  


 

 

58 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

The First Resurrection to immortality is a one-time event.

For each and every soul.  For the SAVED the natural body is sown, the spiritual body is raised and we follow Him to the place He is and we return with Him.  

YOU can keep saying it is a ONE TIME EVENT but 

what you don't see is the ONE TIME EVENT is of THE DEAD.  

what ABOUT THE LIVING?

as in ADAM all die.  The FIRST body dies.  EVERYONES natural body dies.  

AT THAT POINT as in ADAM you have died.  

NOW what happens to the NEW CREATURE?  The PERSON you became when you were baptized.  The PERSON who EATS the body of Christ and drinks the blood of Christ?  

Where does the PERSON who HAS NO SIN so has no wages to PAY TO DEATH?  Does that person go to the SAME PLACE THE DEAD go to or does that PERSON go to HEAVEN to the place CHRIST ascended to?  

WE CAN NOT THINK in the way of the CARNAL FLESH and expect to follow the SPIRITUAL WAYS OF GOD.  

THERE are two bodies.  

WE are body and soul NO MATTER WHAT BODY.  What we NEVER ARE is without a body.  That is why we have two.  

AT the death of this first body,  WE STILL EXIST.  The only thing that has happened is we have gone from this realm to the next one.  

OUR WORKS HAVE FINISHED.  WE can do no more works (the dead will get to do works for the 1000 years, the LIVING PRIESTS will be there to help them)


We have ONE GROUP that have died and risen and been BORN FROM ABOVE.  They have come to faith and have FOLLOWED CHRIST while they were in their first body.  Christ went to be with the GOD OF THE LIVING IN HEAVEN.  WE followed HIM in this body.  

WHY WOULD GOD ever let us out of His sight again?  Remember God is NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD.  So we can never be dead.  NEVER.  The DEAD are the DEAD.  The living are the living.  

THE DEATH OF THE FIRST BODY DOESN'T CHANGE THAT.  THE DEAD GO TO HELL, THE LIVING FOLLOW TO HEAVEN.  

READ THIS with your SPIRITUAL EYES...WHAT happens after the FIRST DEATH for one who has been SAVED from death and destruction
 

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

JESUS is speaking to them about HIS RESURRECTION.  JESUS is speaking to them ABOUT THEIR RESURRECTION. 

This has NOTHING to do with those who are SPIRITUALLY DEAD.  The dead DON'T KNOW THE WAY.  Don't know the RESURRECTION.  Don't know HOW to follow Him.  Don't even know we will be following Him.  




 

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

We FOLLOW Him in this life, in this body just as we follow Him in the next life, in the next body.  




 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm with you on 3 of the above points but 'already risen'? Is this meant to be in some metaphysical way? Risen from what? I mean, I'm still here, I have not died. As far as I know you haven't died.

If you are a CHRISTIAN, you have died and been raised.  NOT METAPHYSICAL but spiritually.  

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Romans 6

ARE YOU STILL HERE?  Do you have no problems with lying and stealing and hating?  Do you worship IDOLS?  Do you have no care or concern for your fellow man?  Are you out to get over on whomever you can?  Have you no consciousness of God? 

OR have you BEEN RAISED up a NEW CREATURE?  Do you LOVE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST?  Do you study the words of GOD because YOU CAN'T HELP IT?  Do you not steal and cheat because those FEELINGS have no part IN YOU?  

So the question becomes ARE YOU the YOU YOU ONCE WERE still here OR HAVE YOU BEEN RAISED UP TO A HIGHER PLACE.  A place in your SOUL that finds THE WAYS OF GOD THE WAYS YOU STRIVE TO FOLLOW? 

BECAUSE if you do, then KNOW that comes from God and THOUGH YOU may still be here in your flesh body, you are ALREADY WALKING in the ways of God and NOW, BEFORE YOU DIE, you want to HELP GOD by telling or showing as many souls as possible OR USING WHAT EVER GIFT GOD HAS GIVEN YOU to the fullest so that GODS DESIRE

that all come to repentance CAN be fulfilled.  WHY DO YOU THINK THE DEAD are raised up for the Lords Day?  So that they might come to repentance.  Why do you think GOD is going to have the SAVED here for the Lords Day?  So that all might come to repentance.  Why do you think we FOLLOW HIM?  to find THE REST.  


where IS THE REST FOUND?  WHAT WILL THE PRIESTS, THE LIVING THAT RETURN WITH HIM BE DOING?  

helping THE DEAD find the REST.   PRAISE YE THE LORD.  Seek the DEEPER THINGS OF GOD and quit arguing about the milk.  It's wasting precious time.

 

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

20For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

 

I know going off topic again, I'll stop

 

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Surely the spirit never dies, no matter if that spirit is of the righteous or unrighteous. I think you need to make the distinction here as to just what you mean.

OUR BEING doesn't die.  

This life is the SEEN life, the natural life, the natural body, the chose life or death time.  

The life that FOLLOWS the FIRST DEATH

is UNSEEN now, but

is the spiritual life, in the spiritual body, the EITHER CHOSE life or death time.  The go to heaven or hell.  

sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body,  EXACTLY AS IT IS WRITTEN

Is that distinct enough?  I can add detail and Scripture if you would like.


 

 

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

So you are saying that if I die today, that I immediately get a spiritual body, go to live with Jesus, also immediately, and immortal in heaven, immediately?

Is that correct?

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING IS WRITTEN.  

It is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body


 

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

What doe that mean, 'those who slept'? Are you saying that before Jesus resurrection believers slept? Like they were slumbering, unaware, not in a 2nd body, not in heaven with Jesus?

If you are, then what is the difference between that and,

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

Would not these be the same?

Those who SLEPT are those who DIED under the old covenant of sin and death, so went to hell. 

HAD THEY BEEN PERFECT under the law or IF THE Law had BROUGHT them to faith then they would have gone to heaven. 

(PROBLEM with THAT was some got to go to heaven because they could follow the law, BUT IT DIDN'T MAKE A CHANGE IN THEIR HEART). 

Those who died BELIEVING IN GOD because they had UNFORGIVEN went to pay the wages and the wages are death.  SEPARATION FROM GOD, go to under the earth, hell, corruption.  Break ONE LAW you are, by the law, under sin, NO DIFFERENT than someone who had broken ALL THE LAWS.  SO 

They were in the 2nd body but they were in hell.  (THE UNSAVED, the SPRITUALLY DEAD, when they die STILL go to hell, they are in hell in their spiritual body and they stay in hell until THE DEAD rise at the return of Christ)


Those who slept were 'sleeping' in The place that CHRIST went for 3 days.  The place He ascended from.  

Many of those who 'slept' upon HEARING and seeing the Lamb slain, REPENTED AND CHOSE LIFE, were washed CLEAN, and having been WASHED CLEAN by His blood, had no more wages to pay, THEY WERE REDEEMED, and became a part of the captivity that followed Him. 

and from that day,  if you come to faith BEFORE the first death,

you don't go to hell, like they HAD TO BUT you followed Him to heaven WASHED CLEAN BY the GRACE of GOD, the blood of the Lamb slain . 


Again, 
NOW when we have been saved when we 'sleep' (first death)  we DON'T GO TO HELL BUT ARE RAISED UP TO HEAVEN being under the NEW COVENANT in which the blood of the Lamb slain WASHES US CLEAN because without SIN, there is no going to the corruption of the earth, hell, just ASCENDING in the spiritual body to heaven.  

Sorry if I am repeating myself but it is all kinda the same thing over and over again. 

THAT is why the verse 'NEITHER DOTH corruption inherit incorruption' MAKEs IT IMPOSSIBLE for the LIVING to be those that are raised from the corruption of the earth, when Christ returns and the DEAD rise.   

EVERY detail must fit perfectly.  The road is NARROW.  Wide is the way to destruction.