Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Montana Marv]

26 minutes ago, LiveWire said:

I personally believe, if tomorrow began day one of the 7 year Tribulation, we would not know the difference because we are pre-Wrath, not pre-Tribulation.   Pre-Tribulation actually is not Scripturally sound, Pre-Wrath is what Jesus preached.

 

Jesus said, there would be marriage, normal life, nothing chaotic in the "beginning" of Tribulation.   But then He would expand and reveal that sometime after those days begin, days would grow to get harder for even the Elect.  So, Jesus was showing us a gradual but steady process from normal to becoming hectic.   Jesus put Birthing Pangs right up to possible year 2 or later before the actual Birth of Wrath.  the Man of Sin don't even reveal himself to well after midpoint and then the Mark and Number come into play.

 

I am 100% pro-pre-Wrath!

Pre-Trib is a form of Pre-Wrath, only a few years earlier.  Pre-Wrath is shortly after the A/D and a known event or period of time.  Doesn't go well with; No one knows that day or hour, only the Father.  The Pre-Trib position is the only position which is totally unknown.  In the future, but when? Tomorrow or 3 years from now.  All the other positions can be known with a degree of certainty once the 70th Week begins. 3 1/2 years,  Mid-Trib; add a few for Pre-Wrath; go the full seven for Post-Trib.  Now these are betting odds.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[The Light]

12 minutes ago, LiveWire said:

I am 100% pro-pre-Wrath!

I am 100% pro pre wrath also. I am also 100% pro-pretrib. And so is the scripture.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened. The seals are the final week when God turns His attention to Israel.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Jesus comes for His Church when it's like the days of Noah. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Jesus comes for the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth when it's like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Jesus comes for Church at the trump of God or voice of God. Jesus comes for the seed of the woman at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Jesus comes for the dead in Christ first, the barley harvest and returns for the Church, the wheat harvest. The fruit harvest is when He comes for the second bride. Jacob has two brides. The dead and alive are caught up in the twinkling of eye.

Only those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God.

 

[LiveWire]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

I am 100% pro pre wrath also. I am also 100% pro-pretrib. And so is the scripture.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened. The seals are the final week when God turns His attention to Israel.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Jesus comes for His Church when it's like the days of Noah. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Jesus comes for the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth when it's like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Jesus comes for Church at the trump of God or voice of God. Jesus comes for the seed of the woman at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Jesus comes for the dead in Christ first, the barley harvest and returns for the Church, the wheat harvest. The fruit harvest is when He comes for the second bride. Jacob has two brides. The dead and alive are caught up in the twinkling of eye.

Only those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God.

 

I am merely pointing out that if Tribulation began tomorrow, we would not see a difference between tomorrow and today in terms of facing Wrath and opposition.   And when we break it all down, there's no real Wrath of Evil or from God for basically first of 3 years of the 7 year Tribulation.  and since there's no Wrath, and we aren't in danger, we don't necessarily need to be Raptured yet.

 

Jesus promised pre-Wrath.   He did not say we would be Raptured before Tribulation begins, He spoke about before Wrath was unleashed.

Edited April 9, 2023 by LiveWire

[The Light]

7 minutes ago, LiveWire said:

I am merely pointing out that if Tribulation began tomorrow, we would not see a difference between tomorrow and today in terms of facing Wrath and opposition.   And when we break it all down, there's no real Wrath of Evil or from God for basically first of 3 years of the 7 year Tribulation.  and since there's no Wrath, and we aren't in danger, we don't necessarily need to be Raptured yet.

 

Jesus promised pre-Wrath.   He did not say we would be Raptured before Tribulation begins, He spoke about before Wrath was unleashed.

There will be around 6 years before wrath as the wrath of God lasts 1 year.

BTW, the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the 1 year wrath of God begins.

[LiveWire]

12 minutes ago, The Light said:

There will be around 6 years before wrath as the wrath of God lasts 1 year.

BTW, the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the 1 year wrath of God begins.

true, but if Christians were remaining on Earth pre-Wrath, no one is in real danger until everyone is forced to take the Mark.   so we could be there the entire first half in terms of basing when we have become a real target and are threatened.   

Edited April 9, 2023 by LiveWire

[Diaste]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:30 AM, FreeGrace said:

I make conclusions based on what the poster posts.

Ditto.

From what you posted.  

Maybe you don't realize how your posts come across and insinuate.

If I make an assertion, it's not a denial of any other point, nor does such assertion provide a commentary on nonrelevant topics. Neither should any assertion I make be construed as opportunities for illogical, off topic rebuttals.

Your game is distraction and now, once again, I'm out.

Be blessed.

[Diaste]

On 4/2/2023 at 9:00 AM, Montana Marv said:

If one is a Believer, one can go anytime

The definition of imminence.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Montana Marv said: 

If one is a Believer, one can go anytime

The definition of imminence.

Depends on the context.  "one can go anytime" could refer to physical death.  And that's certainly true.  But as to WHEN all believers will be resurrected, the Bible is very clear;  it will be "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.  1 Cor 15:23

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Depends on the context.  "one can go anytime" could refer to physical death.  And that's certainly true.  But as to WHEN all believers will be resurrected, the Bible is very clear;  it will be "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.  1 Cor 15:23

Look at Rom 6 closely: v3.. all of who were Baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into his death (we were crucified with Christ).  We were therefore buried with him through baptism into his death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we to may live a new life.  If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

Lets look at a water immersion Baptism.  One who has died in Christ, is Buried with Christ (one goes under), and therefore we are risen with Christ (one comes up out of the water). To live a new life.  We have been Crucified with Christ; We have been Buried with Christ; and We are Raised with Christ by his resurrection.  In 1 Thes 4; Do you ever wonder how those alive in Christ are raised up without dying.  Because it is not a Resurrection, but an Ascension.  We have already been Resurrected in Christ Jesus, therefore we have power to overcome sin with the help of the Holy Spirit.

When one is Baptized; are they not raised up out of the water.  That is a symbol of being Resurrected.  We have died with Christ, been Buried with Christ, and been Resurrected with Christ.  All past tense.

This is why the Body of Christ/Church can go anytime, imminent. We have completed all three steps in Christ Jesus.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ChristB4us]

5 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

 In 1 Thes 4; Do you ever wonder how those alive in Christ are raised up without dying.  Because it is not a Resurrection, but an Ascension.  We have already been Resurrected in Christ Jesus, therefore we have power to overcome sin with the help of the Holy Spirit.

When one is Baptized; are they not raised up out of the water.  That is a symbol of being Resurrected.  We have died with Christ, been Buried with Christ, and been Resurrected with Christ.  All past tense.

This is why the Body of Christ/Church can go anytime, imminent. We have completed all three steps in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 4:17 testifies to God judging His House first as I applied that to the pre-great tribulation rapture event.

He will judge according to what each of us as believers, built on that foundation 1 Corinthians 3:10-14 and in that day verse 13 if there be any unrepentant iniquity that remains on that foundation which defiles the temple of God which our bodies are 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, our physical bodies will die 1 Corinthians 3:16-17, but the spirit is saved per 1 Corinthians 3:15.

The church was warned to repent or else be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation as He will judge us in according to our works on that foundation in Revelation 2:18-25.

In spite of this terror of the Lord, 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 assures us that when those left behind dies, their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven Revelation 6:9-17  to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation;  Revelation 7:9-17

There is a race to be run by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily Hebrews 12:1-2 in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son 1 John 1:3-9.

Those who do not look to Jesus Christ for help in running that race as our confidence is in Him to finish His work in us to His glory by His grace & by His help Philippians 1:6-11, and instead sow to the works of the flesh or resort to their own power in following Him by keeping a commitment to follow Him or the Promise Keepers' program ( which He can deliver us from to follow him by faith instead Galatians 5:1,5, ) are at risk of being left behind as Paul says that could happen even to himself in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 in becoming a castaway.

If you consider verses 4-5 in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 for how church is to excommunicate unrepentant believers as giving them unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, does that not mirror what God will do at the pre great tribulation rapture event in leaving them behind when Satan will wage war on the saints?

And again in verses 8-11 in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13, is not the feast to be held in sincerity and truth for why we are not to eat with unrepentant saints?  How much more will Jesus Christ do for the Marriage Supper in Heaven?

So this is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else in Luke 12:40-49 as they will get measures of stripes for not being ready and note verse 6 in Hebrews 12:1-11 when failing to run that race by not even resisting temptations to sin as the Father corrects us by what?  Scourging; hence a whipping of stripes upon them.

And so those left behind unrepentant saints and former believers that did not look to Him for help in departing from iniquity in getting ready, will find themselves as still saved but to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, testifying to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name.  This is why His disciples are to call every wayward believer to go to Jesus Christ for help in discerning iniquity in departing from them so they too can obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be that vessel unto honor in His House when they depart from iniquity before He comes.

2 Timothy 2:1-13 & 2 Timothy 2:18-21