Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Salty]

Brethren, it is not my intention to make anyone angry. I am not against the 1830's Pre-trib Rapture theory because of some political agenda nor anything of the sort. I speak up against it because the Scriptures of God's Word shows that such a theory simply is not true. It's an idea that has to be 'added' to Scripture.

And when you see men behind the doctrine who refuse to address the Scripture evidence offered to them, and it clearly debunks what they have proposed, and then they start with name calling and smears to try and attack one's credibility, then you know... that is a sign that they have failed to support their position. This is especially so when they begin asking for what credentials one has, even when one following God's Word in its simplicity is obvious.

[Salty]

Here's a revelation of how Quasar shows that he really is only using the credentials of others to try and fool others here into believing that he has some. This will show how he is only... following what other preachers on the Pre-trib rapture teach, and will also prove how they add to the Scriptures:

 

In a previous post Quasar stated this quote to me about the "day of the Lord" idea in Scripture:

"FYI, "the day of Christ" in the KJV is a mistranslation as I can readily prove to you in another post.  It is nearly 100% "day of the Lord," in 2 Thess.2:3.  Review the following facts for your edification:

It's clear you are more interested in attempting to prove non-Scriptural eschatology than to learn what the Scriptural truth is.  Review the following that was previously posted, you are ignoring:

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age." (my emphasis in red)
 

In the above, Quasar is stating as a matter of factly that the "day of the Lord" is 'triggered' by the one in Dan.9:27 that comes to confirm a covenant for Daniel's symbolic "one week" and he equates that time period as being the "seven year tribulation". (see part above in red).

But brethren, read what Peter said happens on the "day of the Lord" and then tell me how the tribulation can survive it:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

Can Quasar not read? Is what Apostle Peter said there about that "day of the Lord" hard to understand? Can the Pre-trib rapture doctors which Quasar claims credentials from not read and understand what Peter said there either? Apparently not.

The Isaiah 13 example of the "day of the Lord" event that will occur on the final day of this world Quasar also failed to address:

Isa 13:6-11
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
KJV

That Isaiah 13:6 verse actually seals the matter, as God through Isaiah shows that "day of the Lord" is a day of "destruction from the Almighty". That of course means that "day of the Lord" event is NOT about the 7 years tribulation time, but will instead END the tribulation time.

 

Something else, and it's a huge example of how the Pre-trib rapture school tries to add to Scripture to try make their rapture theory appear true:

Traditionally, since I was a small boy, the Pre-trib Rapture school has always taught that Jesus comes "as a thief in the night" to rapture His Church! Look again at the above 2 Pet.3 example and notice that "day of the Lord" event will come "as a thief in the night". Do you not see something wrong there brethren, and it's not the Scripture that is wrong; it is the Pre-trib rapture school that is wrong.

The "day of the Lord" event burns the elements (Greek stoicheion, which points to an order, like world time) off the earth, which is referring to Scripture like the end of Hebrews 12 about God's consuming fire on the last day of this world. Pre-trib wrongly says the 7 year tribulation starts at that point, which of course is impossible, just because of what the "day of the Lord" event involves the destruction of this present world.

So this is not hard to understand at all. Day of destruction ("day of the Lord") = no more tribulation.

And we know Jesus' coming is at the end of the tribulation like He revealed, and how Paul also revealed (Matt.24:29-31; 2 Thess.2).

So WHY brethren, tell me, why would the Pre-trib rapture school wrongly preach that Jesus comes "as a thief in the night" to rapture the Church PRIOR to the tribulation, when the "day of the Lord" only occurs to end this present world at the end of the tribulation??? And both Paul and Peter said that "day of the Lord" comes "as a thief in the night".

Clearly, the Pre-trib rapture school is not really studying the Scriptures, but have been busy creating additions to the Scriptures, because this point is very easy to understand once you read the Scripture as written in simplicity:

Here, I'll show the Scriptures on this again:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

 

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

Notice Paul also revealed that "day of the Lord" comes "as a thief in the night" and is about a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked. So how can that be about the start of the tribulation, since it instead shows about a destruction upon the wicked? Do you not see how the Pre-trib rapture school is backwards on all that with saying that "day of the Lord" begins at the start of the tribulation?

 

So in Summary:

The "day of the Lord" = a day of destruction from the Almighty upon the wicked. That of course ends their working on earth on that day. It also means the end of the trib is the only time when that "day of the Lord" will come, simply because the tribulation is a specific working by the wicked at the end of this present world.

The "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". In 1 Thess.5:4, Apostle Paul said Christ's Church is not in darkness that that 'day' should overtake us as a thief. In other words, we are not to be surprised on the day of Christ's coming like the wicked will be, showing that we will still be here on earth.

The Pre-trib school rightly teaches Jesus comes "as a thief in the night", but they move that backwards to the start of the tribulation. Paul and Peter showed the "day of the Lord" comes "as a thief in the night" which means the "as a thief" timing can only be at the end of the tribulation (and thus the true time of Jesus' coming to gather His Church).

 

[seeking the lost]

1 hour ago, Salty said:

Brethren, it is not my intention to make anyone angry. I am not against the 1830's Pre-trib Rapture theory because of some political agenda nor anything of the sort. I speak up against it because the Scriptures of God's Word shows that such a theory simply is not true. It's an idea that has to be 'added' to Scripture.

And when you see men behind the doctrine who refuse to address the Scripture evidence offered to them, and it clearly debunks what they have proposed, and then they start with name calling and smears to try and attack one's credibility, then you know... that is a sign that they have failed to support their position. This is especially so when they begin asking for what credentials one has, even when one following God's Word in its simplicity is obvious.

Hang in there Salty.  You are against a heap of teachers with credentials and degrees.  2Tim. 4: 1-4 

4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I was wondering what you think of the words "shall" and "rise".  Shall seems to be future tense in english not past tense as some well learned teacher who cannot be taught seems to believe.  Rise means to move from a lower position to a position that is above the previous position doesn't it?  Some seem to believe that they are with Him and raised as they died at the time they died.  These are the ones that are called the "dead in Christ".  They have already gone up past tense then they will come with Him.  Does that sound right to you?

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[Salty]

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

Hang in there Salty.  You are against a heap of teachers with credentials and degrees.  2Tim. 4: 1-4 

4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I was wondering what you think of the words "shall" and "rise".  Shall seems to be future tense in english not past tense as some well learned teacher who cannot be taught seems to believe.  Rise means to move from a lower position to a position that is above the previous position doesn't it?  Some seem to believe that they are with Him and raised as they died at the time they died.  These are the ones that are called the "dead in Christ".  They have already gone up past tense then they will come with Him.  Does that sound right to you?

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I'm really not concerned with heaps of teachers and man's degrees. God gives understanding to whom He will irregardless of man's wonderings. Apostle Paul told Timothy to become a workman in God's Word to show himself approved of God. Men following each other's traditions is not what Paul was speaking of.

The phrase "shall stand" is Greek anasteesontai 'to stand'. It appears you are asking whether the resurrection means literally the dead in Christ waking up in their graves, and then rising after having been literally asleep since their flesh died.

Based on Eccl.12:5-7 (which I think Quasar also mentioned), and the 2 Cor.5 example by Paul, and 1 Cor.15 about the "spiritual body", and per the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, I believe our 'spirit' is immediately in Paradise when our flesh dies. I do not believe we are literally asleep until the resurrection. I believe that asleep idea Paul used is a metaphor for those in Christ whose flesh has died, but whose spirit in Jesus can never die. (There is a major symbolic idea about spiritual death in God's Word).

What I deem the resurrection on the day of our Lord Jesus' return as, is one's "mortal" soul being made immortal per 1 Cor.15:53. We know the resurrection body can still be subject to the "second death" simply because Jesus showed there will be a "resurrection of damnation" also (John 5:28-29). Our soul is mortal until Jesus comes and redeems us and makes our soul immortal in Him. Until then, we only have the Promise of eternal life and can be taken only to Paradise (Luke 16).

If you look at 1 Pet.3:18-20 and 1 Pet.4:5-6, about the "spirits in prison", that I strongly believe is pointing to the souls of those who died without Christ back in the OT, with Jesus after His resurrection going to the pit prison and preaching The Gospel to them, and leading those who believed out of that prison house. This was actually prophecy from Isaiah 42:7 that He would do this at His first coming. So how could that occur if the souls of those men were literally in their graves asleep?

The dead in the ground idea, i.e., that we literally sleep in our graves with our flesh until the resurrection, is really a fleshy idea from Jewish tradition. Though we find Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15 speaking of the resurrection as being a "spiritual body", there still are many who believe it will be a new flesh body. Likewise when our Lord Jesus said those of the resurrection don't marry nor take in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven, most disregard that idea of being like the angels as literal, when our Lord was actually pointing to the very "image of the heavenly" with that which Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 also.

 

 

[Salty]

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

I was wondering what you think of the words "shall" and "rise".  Shall seems to be future tense in english not past tense as some well learned teacher who cannot be taught seems to believe.  Rise means to move from a lower position to a position that is above the previous position doesn't it?  Some seem to believe that they are with Him and raised as they died at the time they died.  These are the ones that are called the "dead in Christ".  They have already gone up past tense then they will come with Him.  Does that sound right to you?

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Study 2 Cor.5 where Paul hinted at the existence of the spiritual body if our flesh were dissolved.

2 Cor 5:1-3
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
KJV

That building of God, a house not made with hands (meaning not a flesh body), but eternal in the heavens, is pointing to Paul's "spiritual body" concept in 1 Cor.15. That aligns with Ecc.12:5-7 because it says when our flesh dies it goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. Well, our soul (personality) is attached to that spirit that goes back to God.

There he revealed that to have died in Christ automatically means to be present with Him.

2 Cor 5:8-9
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.
KJV

 

[seeking the lost]

3 hours ago, Salty said:

The phrase "shall stand" is Greek anasteesontai 'to stand'. It appears you are asking whether the resurrection means literally the dead in Christ waking up in their graves, and then rising after having been literally asleep since their flesh died.

Hi Salty

How is the phrase "shall stand" related to the "Shall Rise"?  The KJV says the dead in Christ shall rise first then we....

The point of my question is related to the linking of the rapture and the resurrection.  If these can be divorced from each other then anyone can place a rapture any place they want.  My simple mind cannot separate the future event of the resurrection from the rapture.  Thank you for you work.

[Salty]

8 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Hi Salty

How is the phrase "shall stand" related to the "Shall Rise"?  The KJV says the dead in Christ shall rise first then we....

The point of my question is related to the linking of the rapture and the resurrection.  If these can be divorced from each other then anyone can place a rapture any place they want.  My simple mind cannot separate the future event of the resurrection from the rapture.  Thank you for you work.

Confusion between the resurrection and the rapture ("caught up") of 1 Thess.4 is why I covered the subject of the resurrection type body which Apostle Paul taught, i.e., the "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15.

I'll try to explain more simply:

To enter into Christ's future Kingdom, all those in Christ must put on both a body of incorruption, and an immortal soul ("this mortal" of 1 Cor.15:53). The body of incorruption is the resurrection body, what Paul also called the "spiritual body" in 1 Cor.15:44 and "image of the heavenly" in 1 Cor.15:49.

Since the "asleep" saints have already died, their flesh having already gone back to the earthy elements, they are in their bodies of incorruption already. That is why they do not need their flesh 'changed' at the "last trump" for they are already there with Jesus. That is why Paul in 1 Thess.4:13-14 told us to not sorrow over those brethren asleep saints, for Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes.

But the Church still alive on earth in flesh bodies, must put on the body of incorruption ("spiritual body" or resurrection body) in order to be "caught up" with them and Jesus. That is why these must be 'changed' at that event of Christ's coming, like Paul showed in 1 Cor.15:51-52.

 

[iamlamad]

On 12/15/2016 at 0:54 AM, Salty said:

Confusion between the resurrection and the rapture ("caught up") of 1 Thess.4 is why I covered the subject of the resurrection type body which Apostle Paul taught, i.e., the "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15.

I'll try to explain more simply:

To enter into Christ's future Kingdom, all those in Christ must put on both a body of incorruption, and an immortal soul ("this mortal" of 1 Cor.15:53). The body of incorruption is the resurrection body, what Paul also called the "spiritual body" in 1 Cor.15:44 and "image of the heavenly" in 1 Cor.15:49.

Since the "asleep" saints have already died, their flesh having already gone back to the earthy elements, they are in their bodies of incorruption already. That is why they do not need their flesh 'changed' at the "last trump" for they are already there with Jesus. That is why Paul in 1 Thess.4:13-14 told us to not sorrow over those brethren asleep saints, for Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes.

But the Church still alive on earth in flesh bodies, must put on the body of incorruption ("spiritual body" or resurrection body) in order to be "caught up" with them and Jesus. That is why these must be 'changed' at that event of Christ's coming, like Paul showed in 1 Cor.15:51-52.

 

This theory is probably outside the "pale of Orthodoxy" as The Bible Answer man puts it. The general belief is that those who have died in Christ are in heaven IN SPIRIT and not in body. They will need to come down and get their new resurrection body that God will rise up from the ground. This is proven by Matthew 27 where it says, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened. God brought those saints bodies back together into a new resurrection body.  The spirits from these bodies were down in hades and Jesus brought them up with Him. Many went to heaven, but some were the elders of the Old Testament and Jesus resurrected them.

The point is, there has been NO RESURRECTION and no resurrection bodies except Jesus as the firstfruits, and those elders of the Old Testament.
 

[iamlamad]

On 12/14/2016 at 3:53 PM, seeking the lost said:

Hi Salty

How is the phrase "shall stand" related to the "Shall Rise"?  The KJV says the dead in Christ shall rise first then we....

The point of my question is related to the linking of the rapture and the resurrection.  If these can be divorced from each other then anyone can place a rapture any place they want.  My simple mind cannot separate the future event of the resurrection from the rapture.  Thank you for you work.

They cannot be divorced from each other. Those alive and in Christ will follow instantly after the dead in Christ rise, and TOGETHER (the gathering) we will rise up into the clouds to meet Christ in the air.

Edited March 2, 2017 by iamlamad

[n2thelight]

On 3/1/2017 at 9:10 PM, iamlamad said:

This theory is probably outside the "pale of Orthodoxy" as The Bible Answer man puts it. The general belief is that those who have died in Christ are in heaven IN SPIRIT and not in body. They will need to come down and get their new resurrection body that God will rise up from the ground. This is proven by Matthew 27 where it says, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened. God brought those saints bodies back together into a new resurrection body.  The spirits from these bodies were down in hades and Jesus brought them up with Him. Many went to heaven, but some were the elders of the Old Testament and Jesus resurrected them.

The point is, there has been NO RESURRECTION and no resurrection bodies except Jesus as the firstfruits, and those elders of the Old Testament.
 

Those in Heaven don't need to come get their body,they already have them.

As Paul states we have two bodies,the spirit lives inside the flesh,and when the flesh dies it steps out.