Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[adhidw]

4 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

 in it's entirety says that the Tribulation is God delivering His wrath on an unbelieving world. 

 

Un believing world will happen if there is no single person who is belong to Him/ the chosen which is still in his/her process for salvation, or likened : all of His have already entered in Canaan .

So the tribulation days are the days of temptation , in those days there still many His chosen who still alive and still in their process of salvation.

His actually wrath shall arrive when these scriptures have already fulfilled.

 Rev11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them

Rev20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison ( try to know : what is the reason The devils are loosed ?, doesn’t it lead us to guess that in that time there surely be no single person which is born of God and not yet enter to his/her salvation ?).

 

Rev20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

How can there be people those such sand of the sea that in that time began with undeceived then instantly become deceived ?, why god does not take any action to prevent them if all of them actually His ?. Try compared to the people out side the ark in Noah age ?, aren’t those afflicted the same kind of people ----> born of flesh ?, So the actual wrath began from this point.

[Steve Conley]

4 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Well, if you remove the book of Revelation from the Bible then I guess you could float that theory.  The problem is that Revelation, in it's entirety says that the Tribulation is God delivering His wrath on an unbelieving world.  You can't take the wrath of the Lamb and just pigeonhole it.

God's wrath is this big, immovable boulder that post-trib devotees have to get rid of to make their cellophane doctrine work.

Pretend God doesn't have wrath.

Pretend that the Church replaces Israel.

Pretend God lied when He promised to preserve Israel.

Pretend that a weak God has to test believers to see if they really belong to him or not.  Like He doesn't already know.

Post-trib doctrine is a game of pretend that removes huge chunks of the Bible because they are inconvenient.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Cobalt1959, I'm sorry that you fail to grasp that what John sees at the opening of the seals is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God is certain to fall upon the unbelieving, Beast worshippers, who persecuted the church and Israel unto death. But the wrath of God is not for those who are His. God's promise and past actions make it clear that not a single one of His faithful servants will experience His wrath. Not Noah, not even Lot, not the Israelites in the exodus, nor the saints who experience the great tribulation shall be the recipients of God's wrath. We are not appointed thereunto (1Thes 5:9).

Paul says that we rest from persecution when Christ begins to tribulate our persecutors when He is revealed from heaven taking vengeance upon them.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

At the opening of the 5th seal, the souls that John sees under the altar are told that they would have to wait a little season before their blood would be avenged. There is no vengeance yet at the opening of the 5th seal. It that point God's wrath has not yet fallen upon the persecutors of the saints and it won't until a little season.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The wrath of God comes suddenly in the eschatological period called the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The day of the Lord has a sign which precedes it.

Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

John sees the cosmic sign which comes prior to the day of the Lord when the 6th seal is opened letting us know that the day of the Lord and God's wrath therein is to follow. The earth dwellers shall be fearful at the great signs and at Christ's revelation which follows them. They recognize that the day of His wrath has arrived, but it hasn't fallen upon them yet, because they say "who shall be able to stand", which signifies that it is yet future.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Notice that this is the first mention of God's wrath in the Book of Revelation. Two different Greek words are translated "wrath" 12 times, speaking of God's fierce indignation. The first two are in vss 16 & 17 where God's wrath is said to be impending. The day has come but the wrath is yet to fall.

Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come ; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation chapter 7 is the answer to the question "who shall be able to stand". It is the 144,000 Israelites who were sealed in their foreheads for protection from the plagues of God's wrath and the innumerable multitude who have been resurrected/raptured and are safe standing before the throne of God in heaven.

Revelation chapter 8 is where John sees the wrath of God begin to fall upon the unbelieving earth-dwellers who had been our persecutors. The wrath starts with the first trumpet judgement.

We know that this is the wrath of God because it comes on the same day that the Lord takes His own to safety. Jesus taught that our rescue would be on the same day that His wrath would fall upon the wicked (Luke 17:26-30).

We also know that the trumpets are the wrath of God because the vials are said to be the last of the plagues of God's wrath.

Rev 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Hallelujah

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Hi Diaste,

 

Why do you think there are millions of tribulation saints?  I would say it is much higher and even into the billions.  Revelation says they cannot be numbered.  This is such high a number that we do not even know.  Revelation does mention many numbers that can be counted so the tribulations saints are even high than these.  Some of the number that are counted in Revelation are the 144,000 from Israel and the 200,000,000 Army in Revelation 9:16 so the number of tribulation saints must be much higher since 200 million can be counted.

Oh don't think it's millions as some limit. I don't think too much about it, really. I do kind of find bigger numbers fascinating in relation to a person's lifespan, so to put it in perspective;

The actual quote is, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people,and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb,"

Let's say this is in reference to a single person challenged to count this vast multitude.

If a person lives for 80 years they experience perhaps 77 years where they could count 1..2..3..etc. If we were to count one number per second in 77 years we could count to 2.4 billion, not a real possibility. If a person counted for 10 hours a day, one number per second for 77 years, they could reach 1 billion. Still not possible in my mind so the number that could be counted in a person's life span would be much lower. 

John didn't count the army of 200 million, he heard the number. That army was counted in the heavens and the number was given to John.  In any case I think the statement is a powerful one for the case of the sovereignty of the Most High, more so than a challenge. God has a great many loyal people. God will be merciful to all those who call on Him. Through Christ vast numbers will be saved in and through crisis and the kingdom of Heaven will increase. Hopefully with many more than those that reject the salvation of Christ.

I don't really know, it's just kinda interesting. Sort of like the questions, "Are two rooks more powerful than a Queen?", "Is a Knight more powerful than a Bishop?" Wholly dependent on context.

I don't see anything out of place with numbers approaching a billion. It's amazing really. But again I think it's more a testament to God's eternal provision and mercy that so many are saved.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Diaste

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Well, if you remove the book of Revelation from the Bible then I guess you could float that theory.  The problem is that Revelation, in it's entirety says that the Tribulation is God delivering His wrath on an unbelieving world.  You can't take the wrath of the Lamb and just pigeonhole it.

Please present all the scriptural fact for this contention that must refute the Wrath of the Lamb and the One who sits on the throne beginning at the 6th seal. Which wrath begins only after the martyrs are killed and before God's vengeance falls, to wit:

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and TRUE, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And if the entire Tribulation is the wrath of God then God's wrath is what killed the martyrs under the altar. Is that even reasonable? 

Further, after the 'rapture' all who become born again by the blood of Christ while in the tribulation must then immediately endure God's wrath. How is this possible when 'we are not appointed to wrath'? Isn't this concept that which allows for the early exit of the church? Does 'we are not appointed to wrath' only apply to certain groups?

Also, would anyone receive Christ as their savior when undergoing the wrath meted out by the Savior? I don't think so. Who would believe that Christ was their savior when that same savior is destroying them? It's not a reasonable idea, yet this is one natural conclusion of the pretrib ideology.

Please post scriptural fact supporting the idea that some believers escape the wrath of God and some believers must endure the wrath of God.

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Diaste

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Brother Duke, I have come to believe that those mentioned as coming out of great tribulation include all the saints, both those who take part in the first resurrection and the survivors who are changed. The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the change of the survivors takes place in an indivisible moment of time which is followed by our gathering to Christ by the angels, of which nothing is said that it is instantaneous.

The great multitude is those who take part in the first resurrection (and the small number of survivors that are changed at that moment). The resurrection takes place on the day the great tribulation ends. That means that the number will far exceed the number of true believers alive today. Billions are definitely within reason.

Hallelujah 

The first resurrection is in reference to these, "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5....This is the first resurrection."

I'm convinced the 1st resurrection is only for those who endure great tribulation as the above directly references the beheaded and those who reject the power of the beast. No others are mentioned here.

Because, "The second death has no power over them," means in part, that all the rest of the dead from the time the graves were opened at Jesus' resurrection until the beginning of GT stand in jeopardy of the second death. Not to say they are destined to the second death, but that until the judgement at the end of the millennium there is doubt concerning their destiny, which doubt is nonexistent with those of the first resurrection.

So yes, a billion is reasonable. Not that it's the important part but it is interesting.

 

 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Please post scriptural fact supporting the idea that some believers escape the wrath of God and some believers must endure the wrath of God.

They can't.  The whole pretrib notion reflects baseless privilege and entitlement.

[Montana Marv]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Because, "The second death has no power over them," means in part, that all the rest of the dead from the time the graves were opened at Jesus' resurrection until the beginning of GT stand in jeopardy of the second death. Not to say they are destined to the second death, but that until the judgement at the end of the millennium there is doubt concerning their destiny, which doubt is nonexistent with those of the first resurrection.

So Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.  Paul, Timothy, Silas, Lydia, Barnabas and others stand in jeopardy of the second death.  It might even involve you if you die before the GT. Interesting.  No Hope.  Limbo, Purgatory.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

So Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.  Paul, Timothy, Silas, Lydia, Barnabas and others stand in jeopardy of the second death.  It might even involve you if you die before the GT. Interesting.  No Hope.  Limbo, Purgatory.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Good point. I'll have to look into that a little closer see what else I can find. Paul did say, "to live is Christ, to die is gain" 

I think I read where the Apostles will have a particular role in the kingdom. 

I guess I have only seen this, "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. ⁵ (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection." about the first resurrection.

So if any scripture comes to mind that sheds light on this, please let me know.

Maybe all the dead in Christ between the ascension and the first resurrection are somehow with God now.

[n2thelight]

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

Good point. I'll have to look into that a little closer see what else I can find. Paul did say, "to live is Christ, to die is gain" 

I think I read where the Apostles will have a particular role in the kingdom. 

I guess I have only seen this, "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. ⁵ (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection." about the first resurrection.

So if any scripture comes to mind that sheds light on this, please let me know.

Maybe all the dead in Christ between the ascension and the first resurrection are somehow with God now.

If you die in Christ,you have no fear of the 2nd death,as you are his

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

v11 tells u that it's just not those that came out of the tribulation as per the below

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The above are those who stood their ground against satan,during the tribulation.

You must believe that you were raised just like Christ,and not at some later date,but at death of the flesh.

Let's go to Thess

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

This is the subject,those who have died

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen.

 

It is during the tribulation that Christians will fall away from the truth,as God will send that strong delusion ,and while some may think that's not right,it's for their own good,as they won't be judged in ignorance .

To quote a movie,some can't handle the truth.

satan will not and cannot force you to take the mark,people will do so on their own free will,as they will think satan is Christ,as per the below

 

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles [signs] which he had power [it was given him] to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

This is the whole object for the great tribulation. "DECEPTION"! Satan is going to make an image of this "one world system" [religious beast] and breath life into system. Their will be something symbolic created within the system that will cause the whole world to bow. This reminds me of the "image" created in Babylon's "one world government" under king Nebuchadnezzar, in Daniel 3. At that time there were only three that would not bow to the image.

Don't get me wrong,people will die during the trib,but by those who think they do God a service.

John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

This is also the next time true tongues shall be spoken

Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake,,for a testimony against them."

We are going to court,ie make a stand against satan

Mark 13:10 "And the gospel must first be published among all nations."

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost [Spirit]."

When this time comes into being in the very near future, it will not be the elect of God that does the speaking, but the Holy Spirit speaking in and through the mouths of His elect. Every one of these individuals will be delivered before these false councils before the final day of this earth age. This is why Peter would say to the people in Acts 2, on Pentecost day; "This is that which was spoken of by Joel the Prophet."

This is during  the hour of temptation.

Again we go to Heaven at death,Christ brings those who have died back with Him,2nd coming,those alive at that time are changed to like those coming with Christ ,as they were already changed!!!

[n2thelight]

42 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

In the clouds? To meet the Lord in the air? Now, now, these clouds have nothing to do with H2O, absolutely. 

It is interesting that the natural man only knows the clouds of rain (H2O), they know not celestial clouds as is written in Mat.17:v.5 & Exo. 24:15-18 & 13:v.21-22 and 14:v.19 & 33:v.9-11 & 34:v.5 &  & Acts 1:v.9.  

Thank you

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.