Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[ChristB4us]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You are only speculating that the "kingdom of God" means heaven.  

Luke 12:40-49 has Jesus sending fire on the earth and on those unbelievers and saved believers that were not ready that get left behind.

Luke 21:33-36 speaks of that fire, and the necessity of saved believers to pray to escape what is coming on the earth by not being ensnared by the cares of this life that it takes us unaware which is the latter days we are living in now rather than at the end of the great tribulation where saved believers would not be ensnared by he cares of that life that they would not want to leave when the beast is waging war on them.

 

[ChristB4us]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Absolutely and entirely false. Here is a coming of Jesus for the 144,000 first fruits. It is not the second advent.

Revelation 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

I believe this reference is for pointing out that out of those raptured before the great tribulation, there will be 144,000 virgin honest men that will make up His personal choir that follow Jesus wherever He goes thus His entourage.

[FreeGrace]

16 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Luke 12:40-49 has Jesus sending fire on the earth and on those unbelievers and saved believers that were not ready that get left behind.

No one gets "left behind", contrary to the FICTIONAL series by J Jenkins.

16 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Luke 21:33-36 speaks of that fire, and the necessity of saved believers to pray to escape what is coming on the earth by not being ensnared by the cares of this life that it takes us unaware which is the latter days we are living in now rather than at the end of the great tribulation where saved believers would not be ensnared by he cares of that life that they would not want to leave when the beast is waging war on them.

The word 'fire' is used metaphorically to mean evaluation, judgment, etc.  See 1 Cor 3:12-15 for an example.

Sometimes it is used literally.  Discernment is necessary to know which.

[ChristB4us]

3 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No one gets "left behind", contrary to the FICTIONAL series by J Jenkins.

The word 'fire' is used metaphorically to mean evaluation, judgment, etc.  See 1 Cor 3:12-15 for an example.

Sometimes it is used literally.  Discernment is necessary to know which.

You should include 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 where the physical bodies which are the temple of God gets destroyed, as in physical death, for defiling that temple of God and yet per verse 15, the spirit is saved.

I do not see how you can ignore Jesus's warning being given to even His disciples.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

That is what you get for not being ready as found abiding in Him and His words for when He comes as the Bridegroom.  Those left behind are still saved but they are receiving stripes from the Father for not resisting sin thus for not being ready.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

So I tie in Hebrews 12:1-11 as failing to run that race with the event in how He will judge those in that day 1 Corinthians 3:13 of the rapture for not being ready. 

 

[seeking the lost]

On 4/8/2023 at 3:18 PM, The Light said:

How can what you say be correct? When comes at the end of wrath and judges the earth, he is setting up the kingdom of God on earth. There is no need to be raptured anywhere at that point.

Yes, the dead in Christ rise first. That is before the seals are opened. The seals are the final week. So the dead in Christ rise first. After that Christ comes for the alive believers. After the seals are opened and God turns His attention to His Chosen.

The purpose of the rapture is not to protect us from wrath.  The dead in Christ are raised up on the last day.  That day is described in the text, Rev. 20: 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They a had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.  The last day is at the end of the thousand years and that is the last day.  After this day there are no other days on this earth.  That is the time of the elements melt with fervent heat.

The first resurrection is limited to those described for the stated purpose.  They are raised to reign on the earth, they do not go up anywhere yet.

Because of the warning contained in the revelation, it is not a good idea to add resurrections and raptures wherever you think it fits.

[FreeGrace]

39 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

FreeGrace said: 

No one gets "left behind", contrary to the FICTIONAL series by J Jenkins.

The word 'fire' is used metaphorically to mean evaluation, judgment, etc.  See 1 Cor 3:12-15 for an example.

Sometimes it is used literally.  Discernment is necessary to know which.

You should include 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 where the physical bodies which are the temple of God gets destroyed, as in physical death, for defiling that temple of God and yet per verse 15, the spirit is saved.

Please explain why I should include this passage, since it isn't about the resurrection or a rapture.

39 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

I do not see how you can ignore Jesus's warning being given to even His disciples.

Jesus gave a lot of warnings to His disciples.  Which warnings do you think I am ignoring?  Please explain.

39 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

That is what you get for not being ready as found abiding in Him and His words for when He comes as the Bridegroom.  Those left behind are still saved but they are receiving stripes from the Father for not resisting sin thus for not being ready.

No one is left behind because Jesus isn't taking anyone to heaven.  Where do you see such warning in the text above?  The warning is about discipline to God's children.  What do you think it is about?

39 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

So I tie in Hebrews 12:1-11 as failing to run that race with the event in how He will judge those in that day 1 Corinthians 3:13 of the rapture for not being ready. 

Again, there is NO rapture.  Or please please please quote any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

If you can't do that, why would you believe in a rapture?

[The Light]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

I believe this reference is for pointing out that out of those raptured before the great tribulation, there will be 144,000 virgin honest men that will make up His personal choir that follow Jesus wherever He goes thus His entourage.

So you understand that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth and are raptured and that occurs before the great tribulation. 

I believe you are missing this part. If I planted and crop and told you the first fruits of the crop were pumpkins, you would know that the crop is pumpkins and therefore the harvest would be pumpkins.

Since the 144,000 are first fruits and they are of the 12 tribes, you would know that the harvest in Revelation 14 is of the 12 tribes.

This is what you see with the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, which is the gathering from heaven and earth.

[DeighAnn]

57 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

You should include 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 where the physical bodies which are the temple of God gets destroyed, as in physical death, for defiling that temple of God and yet per verse 15, the spirit is saved.

I do not see how you can ignore Jesus's warning being given to even His disciples.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

That is what you get for not being ready as found abiding in Him and His words for when He comes as the Bridegroom.  Those left behind are still saved but they are receiving stripes from the Father for not resisting sin thus for not being ready.

Are you saying that ALL OF THAT is for the PRE TRIB RAPTURE CHURCH AND NOT ALL CHRISTIANS?   Kind of a strange way to look at it.  HERE again, pre trib TAKING what it wants, leaving what it doesn't.  


PROBLEM 1

 2064. erchomai ►
Strong's Concordance
erchomai: to come, go
Original Word: ἔρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: erchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-khom-ahee)
Definition: to come, go
Usage: I come, go.


You are on your way to your 25th CLASS reunion, a TRUCK hits you head on and you DIE, instantly.  

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all

SAME EXACT WORD USED OF Christ's invisible return from heaven, of his invisible advent in the death of believers, by which be takes them to himself into heaven, 

Surely THAT is the SPIRIT OF TRUTH we are being given here.



See how it EQUALLY APPLIES to all the 'highlighted' areas?. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.


AGAIN, NOT ONE SINGLE WORD IS SAID ABOUT THE TRIBULATION, OR ABOUT THE PRE TRIBULATION.  Just more verses that say SOMETHING that could be SOLD but clearly aren't what is being spoken of.  

[ChristB4us]

31 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Please explain why I should include this passage, since it isn't about the resurrection or a rapture.

Maybe I should ask you why you should exclude it?

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Why else would the physical body, the temple of the Holy Spirt be destroyed with physical death unless it was for how they built on that foundation which defiled the temple of God?  Does not verse 18 incorporate verses 16-17 for how one builds on that foundation?

[DeighAnn]

How can the SEALS NOT BE OPENED UNTIL THE FINAL WEEK?  They have been UNSEALED for 2000 years.  No wonder NEW CHRISTIANS 

There was NO ONE WORTHY....

The Lamb was found worthy...

The Lamb opened the seals...

The four horses went out upon the world.  ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE SEALS HAVE BEEN TAKING PLACE FOR 2000 YEARS. The SPIRITs behind those things were released for the NEW COVENANT.  If you don't take into consideration a new AGE was born, its easy to miss why it was stated.  The BOOK couldn't be opened UNTIL the King and Kingdom were rejected. 


THINK
HAD Christ been accepted THE BOOK WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN UNSEALED.  None of the EVENTS spoken of would have happened.  THE Kingdom and King would have brought in the Lords Day AT THAT TIME AND a different book would have been UNSEALED.  



What hasn't taken place is UNDERSTANDING in the minds of ALL Christians.  SO, for those CHRISTIANS who believe 'they will be sealed/unseald in the last week', 

better hope that understanding comes BEFORE THE DEADLY WOUND....



What are the chances that

all those who believe the book HASN'T BEEN unsealed ALSO BELIEVE in pre trib rap

while

all those who believe the seals have been opened, believe in the 2nd Advent as 2nd Advent and not 3rd Advent?