Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[NITE OWL]

Welcome Frank and I agree

[Guest Frankie boy]

Hi All,

Seeing that this thread has been going on for 13 pages, it is obvious that probably none has been convinced to let go of their belief system.

Be it pre or post.So why are we here? If it is to cast stones at those we disagree with, then we are not adhering to the command of making a defence for the faith once delivered to the saints.

But if we are seriously seeking truth, then we need to let the Scriptures have the final say. And if after seeing a text in context, and it goes against my preconceived understanding, will I still hold onto it because I was taught and believed it so long that I cannot find the way to recant?

I trust that we are for the "truth" and error must be disgarded, especially if it is my own. No one wants to be told or believe he or she is in error and when someone comes against what he or she tenasiously believes, we defend our position tooth and nail. We tend to forget that it is God's Word that is the "revealer of the thoughts and intents of the heart. We can be sincere, but be also sincerely wrong.

So, beginning in the my next post, I will start to share the things I saw in the Word that led me to discard my former pretrib belief. It did not happen easily, but it did happen. I had to put down my old glasses of the commandments and doctrines of men and put on the new glasses of what the Word says about our soon coming God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Please consider what I share with an open heart before barraging me with a ton of verses. Let's just deal with each portion until we milk it's truth and then add it to the following portions till sum of truth is whole. Okay?

First, let's establish the two beliefs.....

Pre believes that the Second Coming has two phases.

The "rapture" before the Great Trib which they deem as the whole seven year period of Dan's seventieth week, and is "secret", and the "Revelation" (in which every eye will see) which happens at the end of Dan's week.

No prophetic signs or events need to occur before Christ comes to take His bride to heaven. This doctrine is called "imminence".(which will be my first topic)

They believe that the whole of Dan's week is the "Wrath of God" and that scripture declares that the Church is not appointed to wrath and therefore escapes this awful time.

The "elect" of Mat 24 are Jews and not on Church ground.

They believe the "saints" mentioned in Revelation are Jews and Gentiles who come to Christ after the church is removed.

Post, on the other hand, believes in one and only one Second Coming at or near the end of the Seventieth week (the Lord will shorten those days for the elects sake).

The Great Trib is only approx. three and one half years long and begins after the AC sets up the abomination of desolation in the "midst" of the seventieth week.(Mat 24:15)

Revelation, resurrection (redemtion of the body) and rapture are sequential at Christ's Coming after He destroys the AC at Armageddon with the brightness of that Coming.

See ya next post.

In Him,

Frankie boy

[Guest Frankie boy]

IMMINENCE Part 1

According to Webster's dictionary; imminence is the condition or state of something that is about to occur and is impending, or it is expected to happen at once. A weatherman may predict the coming of a storm and could use the word "imminence" in relation to it. Now he does not possess any supernatural powers of prediction, but he is trained to study the "signs" in the atmosphere by various metering devices and hence he can determine to a fair degree of accuracy, when and to what magnitude and in what areas, the storm will hit. He then can warn the "hearers" to take appropriate precautions. Board up windows or evacuate the area if necessary.

The "Word of God" also gives predictions of blessings or of warnings about things to occur in the future. But unlike the weatherman, what God says will "come to pass" with complete accuracy because his predictions are "supernatural" and these predictions are called prophecy which literally means : history spoken in advance. He does not need to look at the signs, because He is the very maker of them. In the book of (Gen) He says:

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

note: He determined in the "beginning", that these lights would determine "time". Now the one who did this is not Himself bound to the conditions of "time" but only the creation He made, would be in the "time" realm. He says:

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, ...

Now eternity literally means perpetual or everlasting. It simply states the absence of a beginning or of an ending. This idea, without faith, is completely contrary to our understanding. Everything we know in our time realm, has a start and a finish....but God! He is outside and separate from His creation and "time". (He is the uncaused cause.) What we need to do is draw a straight line. At the beginning of the line, write: "eternity past" and at the end of the line, write: "eternity future". Now the line itself, represents "time". And within this line is the creation that God made. In (Isa 46:10), God says: "He declares "the end" from "the beginning". So God can thus see down the time line and know what He has deemed to happen within the scope of "time". This may seem oversimplified, but we need to keep it simple or end in obscurity. Now because of God's foreknowledge or "foresight", he can declare "ahead" of time, what will happen before it actually "comes to pass"! Hence, we derive the word, prophecy, or a foretelling of what we deem as a future event. To God, it is always in the "now", or ever-present. Now like the weather, we want to know ahead of "time" what it will be like tomorrow so that we can make ready and prepare for a picnic, or for a "boarding up" party. And this is exactly what God tells us in His word. This is a great comfort if we heed what is being spoken or a great tragedy if we don't. So time is a constant as far as it's increments are concerned (24 hours in a day and so on), but it is also moving on to a finale. It will come to an end (like a day), in eternity future at the end of our time line.

So what do we make of time? We can't stretch it, nor can we shorten it. But we can use it and we all have the same amount of it while we are alive; 24 hours each day. Now that we understand our literal chains or bondage to "time", let's go on to the "doctrine of imminence".

Jesus says in:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The very moment you received Christ, you spiritually entered into "eternal or everlasting life". Although you are still here, your "time" will end, but you will enter the realm of eternity. Time as you know it, will cease, and the chains of time will be broken. So imminence in the sense of sealing our redemption, can happen in the "instant" we asked Christ into our life while still being in the time realm. But in regards to the Second Coming of Christ, is imminence a biblical doctrine? Or literally, Can Jesus come back from heaven at "any moment"? Many of the pretrib. persuasion claim this to be so. They say that nothing further needs to be fulfilled for Christ to come the second time and rapture His Church to heaven for seven years while the 70th week is happening on the earth. This doctrine of imminence is a vital plank in order for their belief to stand. But is it true? They say "any moment" in one breath, and then use a length of time (7 years) in the next breath. They do not believe that the Lord will allow His bride to "go thru" the 70th week. And this sounds so good to our ears. But no matter how much we believe something, it does not alter the truth simply because we want it to. Why can we see so easily that the Jehovah's witnesses are wrong? They are certainly sincere and even to the Churches shame, they are preaching with more vigor than we are. But the fact remains, they are sincere but sincerely in error. Do we want Jesus to say to us, His body....

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Impossible you say? The hinge is knowing the scriptures and checking out every teaching you hear with the Word of God (Acts 17:11). You "can" be deceived if you believe only "the doctrines and commandments of men". If we just "pan" for gold in the stream, we will pick up a couple of nuggets of truth. But in order to find the vein where the mother load is, we need to get on our miners caps (light) and our picks and shovels (the scriptures, the Strongs and Vines) and search and dig for the truth!

Next is part 2

In Him,

Frankie boy

[Guest Frankie boy]

Imminence Part 2

God has provided the tools but we must use them or hear His words of rebuke as in the above text. Now in order to deal with the relevancy of imminence, we need to look at how God teaches in His word. He not only gives us direct commands but also principles and what we call "progressive revelation". This is done in the prophetic mode, where He establishes a prediction early in the "time line" and then as "time passes", He adds to the prediction by giving more information all the way up to the fulfillment of the original prophecy. You recall constantly in the New Testament the phrase: "and thus it was fulfilled that was spoken by" or

[Guest Frankie boy]

Imminence Part 3

Now in:

Gal 4:4 But when "the fullness of the time" was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

We hear Paul use the phrase, "the fullness of time". And he simply stated that what the Father had predetermined in (Gen 3:15), had now been completed. But it happened at the "exact moment" that only God knew and this follows true when Jesus says: "that no man knows the hour or the day" that the Father will send Him back the second time.

See also: (Lk 20:9 15).

So we can say: that Jesus did not come the first time, one minute too soon nor one minute too late! Remember also that the virgin had to be born before she could give birth to the Saviour. We as the Church, like Adam and Eve, have been given a promise. We are living in the fulfillment of the one given to them but in the expectancy of the one given to us in our lifetime. They never saw the fulfillment in their lifetime, but we maybe just the people who will witness and be partakers of the actual "Second Coming of the Lord".

And now it is the "timing" of that Coming in which we need to understand based upon what we have covered, and with what is written in the Word about this "timing". When Jesus was on the cross, He said "it is finished". What was finished? First, everything that the Father sent Him to do, He did. And from that, we see that the Old Testament law was lived out in it's completion by Jesus and we, who could not keep it, were now made free from the condemnation of the law by taking on Christ's righteousness. This took Jesus about 33 years to do. Paul says that He who has "begun" a good work in you (the present), will perform it (future), "until" the Day of Christ. Again, time is needed. Now remember, we are talking in regards to the physical "Second Coming" of Christ. He could come at "any moment" for anyone of us, only in the sense of our demise in this life. Which brings us to a good point.

In:

John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Now for the point:... could Jesus have come back the second time "before" Peter's death? No! These words were spoken before the ascension of Christ.

But we hear Peter say in:

2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

2 Peter 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

2 Peter 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

2 Peter 1:15 Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

Now Peter penned these words in 64 AD or later. Jesus has been gone to heaven for this span of time. If he believed in "imminence", how or why would he declare such things? And further more, we need to establish, if imminence is true, when does it actually begin? For it has to have a starting point in time. I need to say, at this juncture, that this doctrine is as recent as the pretrib. doctrine itself. It was birthed about 1830 AD in the British Isles. Pretrib. will say that it's always been in the Word, but that is not true unless imminence is also true. Now in order for Jesus to come again, it was necessary for Him to go away. So "imminence" would have to begin "after" the ascension. But as we have just seen, Peter died before Jesus comes back.

Next Part 4

In Him,

Frankie boy

[Guest Frankie boy]

Imminence Part 4

In:

2 Tim 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2 Tim 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at "that day": and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

In (vs 6) Paul said he was ready for Nero's chopping block. Did he believe in "imminence"? No! But he was looking for "that day" which he seemed to believe was "still" in the future, at least after his own death. If this is not enough, let's look at some other texts.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

[Guest Frankie boy]

Imminece Part 5

In:

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Acts 2:35 "Until" I make thy foes thy footstool.

note: Jesus will certainly obey the Father and remain at his right hand "until".

See: (He 1:13; 10:13)

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the "times" of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

note: When the "time" to refresh is ready.

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven "must receive" until "the times of restitution of all things", which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

note: Again we see that a "time span" is necessary "before" the Lord returns.

1 Cor 15:52 In a "moment", in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Moment Greek_823. atomos, at' om os; from Grk_1 (as a neg. particle) and the base of Grk_5114; uncut, i.e. (by impl.) indivisible [an "atom" of time]: moment.

-note: It is "not" at "any" moment, but in a particular moment. In fact, the article "a" is not even in the Grk. Text. And also note, Jesus is coming to change us at the "last trump", which is the same trump of

(1Thess 4), and (Mt 24:31), and (Rev 11:15). If this is not so, where do we hear trumpets blown at all before the 70th week?

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of "the fullness of times" he might "gather together in one" all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

note: There is that phrase ... "the fullness of times", and at that "time", He will "gather" (the rapture) "the dead" (in heaven), and "the alive" (on the earth), and that is at "the Second Coming".

"The Day of the Lord"...... this phrase, is used in both the Old and New Testaments. And based upon it's starting point, the doctrine of imminence will stand or fall. Remember, imminence is the belief that "no" prophesied events must occur before the rapture of the Church.

John Walvoord calls imminence the "heart of pretibulationism". He and others therefore believe that the Day of the Lord starts at the "beginning" of the 70th week of Daniel. They then therefore attribute the seals in (Rev 6) to the "Wrath of God". But let's look at some Old Testament texts and see if this bears the truth.

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, "before" the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Joel 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet "before" the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Next Part 6

In Him,

Frankie boy

[Guest Frankie boy]

Imminence Part 6

Two points must be noted from the above texts.

1) Cosmic disturbances will happen "before" the Day of the Lord commences.

note: Now if no prophesied events occur before the rapture, pretrib. is faced with a problem with their starting point of the Day of the Lord.

2) Elijah "must come first" before the Day of the Lord commences.

Let's look now at the New Testament for some parallel passages.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately "after" the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

1) The cosmic disturbances, according to Jesus, happen "after" the tribulation of those days. And "after" those days He is coming and that will be "the Day of the Lord". This then is "after" the coming of antichrist,

(2 Thess 2) and is well within the second half of Daniel's 70th week.

2) The same cosmic disturbances happen in (Rev 6) between the sixth and seventh seal which again, is within the second half of the 70th week.

3) The (17th vs) states that "the great day of His wrath" is coming. This is the first place in Revelation that we see God's wrath mentioned. How then do pretrib. attribute the seals of (chapter 6) in their entirety to the wrath of God? The first five seals are brought to pass by man thru the permissive will of God. It is the day of "man's wrath" or else, God would be responsible for the martyrdom of His own saints. See: "the beginnings of sorrows" in (Mat 24) which parallels these seals and are in the first half of the 70th week.

4) Most believers, pre and posttrib. like, agree that one of the two witnesses of (Rev 11) is Elijah. If this is true, how then do we see him in the second half of Daniel's week and according to Malachi, Elijah is sent before the Day of the Lord"?

Next Part 7

In Him,

Frankie boy

Edited May 2, 2005 by Frankie boy

[Guest Frankie boy]

Imminence Part 7

Summary

The Word of God clearly teaches that

1) cosmic disturbance must precede the Day of the Lord,

2) that Elijah must appear before the Day of the Lord,

3) and that apostasy and revealing of the man of sin must occur before the Day of the Lord.

Since pretribulationism states that the Day of the Lord starts at the Rapture, the concept of an any moment, no prophesied event will occur first position is biblically impossible to sustain.

EXPECTANCY NOT IMMINENCY

Many believers within the early church had either seen Christ during His incarnation or known fellow believers who had known Him. Consequently, Christ's life, death, burial, and resurrection were not abstract issues of theology they were vibrant realities. His promise of personal return was dominant in their thinking. Their Lord was coming again in power and glory. Things would be different when that occurred. God, not Rome, would be the victor. Christ, not the emperor, would reign. Righteousness, not wickedness, would be the order of the day. Unlike today, the heart of the Apostolic Age burned with the prospect of their Sovereign's return. They knew full well that the Church Age had commenced. The apostle Paul had revealed that fact (Eph. 3:4 6). But they had absolutely no concept of its duration. It is easy for believers in the twentieth century to look back at two thousand years of church history, but the first century church had no basis for anticipating that kind of extended period of time between their own day and the return of Christ. They believed that their Savior could return in their lifetime, and their lives revolved around the expectation of that event.

Based on the above texts, it should be obvious that the pretrib. doctrine of imminence and that the Day of the Lord "begins" on or before the 70th week is in error.. for certain prophesied events must occur "before" that day.

Now if you have seen the error of the doctrine of "imminence", you will also see the error of the "pretrib. doctrine" which cannot stand if imminence doesn't.

If I have offended you, I'm sorry. (faithful are the wounds of a friend). But if I have raised in your mind's eye a question on what you believe, then I'm glad. "Search the word and see if these things be so"! (Acts 17:11). Amen

Addendum:

Here is a text that you must ponder....

Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome .

You must now ask yourself.....

Could the Lord have come before Paul would bear witness for Jesus in Rome?

You must conclude that certain things spoken by the Lord Himself and his apostles have to happen before He comes. Therefore, "IMMINENCE" is a faulty plank, that when walked on, breaks under the clear Word of God. And if Imminence is false, then where does the pretrib dogma stand??

Yours in Him,

Frankie boy

[Guest Frankie boy]

Hi again,

My second topic is the "key" rapture text.

1 THESS 4

The Thessalonian letters picture the times as they will be when God brings His plan to completion with Jesus' second advent. In this overview, we'll attempt to show that both letters definitely point to the posttribulational return of Christ.

Looking at these two letters, we will begin with 1 Thessalonians 4 and study only those verses which contribute to our understanding of the second advent. Although the first three chapters of 1 Thessalonians contain isolated verses pertaining to Jesus' return, we will comment on them as we join them to the main doctrine of chapters 4 and 5. These isolated verses are 1:10, 2:12, and 3:13.

A Descent To The Earth

Pretribulationism rejects the belief that the Church will be present on earth during the Tribulation because that would mean that the Church will experience the wrath of God poured out on the world. The doctrine proposes that the Church must be "taken up" before that time, as Scripture is clear that we are destined not for wrath, but for salvation. It is true that when the victorious Lamb of God descends, God's wrath will be poured out on the world. So what about the Church? Later, we'll discuss in fine detail exactly why we won't experience God's wrath. But here we want to find out what does happen to the Church as Christ returns. To do so, let's look at some key words in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 18:

VERSE 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

In verse 13, Paul states the purpose of his letter. The reason Paul wrote this chapter was because of the ignorance of the Thessalonians as to when the dead would be raised. At some previous time (see 1 Thess. 5:1), Paul had told them about the glorious coming of the Lord and the signs that would signal that coming. Apparently he had either neglected to tell them about when the dead would be raised, or they didn't understand what he'd said. Now the Thessalonians had a question: would Christians who had already died miss out on this glorious Day that Paul had told them about? This concern had most likely filtered down to a depth of self concern as well: if they themselves died before the Lord returned, would they be denied the opportunity to witness that return? Chapter 4 responds to this concern by giving necessary details about the resurrection of the dead saints. The Thessalonians had the hope of resurrection into glory, but they didn't know its timing. This lack of information was causing them grief.

VERSE 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Paul tells the Church that if they believe as truth that Jesus died and rose, then they should also believe as truth what he is about to tell them: those who have died will return with Jesus at that time. Paul is differentiating here between the living and the dead who will return with Jesus; it is the spirits of "those who have fallen asleep" who will return with Him.

VERSE 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul begins to tell the Thessalonians that not only will the dead saints take part in the glorious coming of Christ, but they will be raised from the dead just before the living saints are changed. Paul used the words of Jesus Himself as his authority to speak in this manner. "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord" refers not to a current word given to him, but to words that Jesus Himself had spoken while on earth. He was most likely referring to what Jesus said in John 11:21 27.

In this chapter of John, Martha tells the Lord that if He had been there, her brother Lazarus would not have died. He replies, "Thy brother shall rise again." Martha answers, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus' next words, scholars believe, are most likely the "word of the Lord" by which Paul was speaking. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (To the dead saints, Jesus will come back as the Resurrection: "the dead in Christ shall rise first" 1 Thess. 4:16.) Jesus continues, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." (To the living saints, Jesus comes back as the Life, changing the saints who remain alive on the earth until then.) " Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [be changed, "never die"]" 1 Thess. 4:17).

We should note that Martha knew Lazarus would be raised on "the last day," the day Jesus refers to when He calls Himself the Resurrection to the dead saints and the Life to those who remain until He comes. Now, the doctrine of pretribulationism teaches that the resurrection happens in four phases: the resurrection of Jesus (phase 1), the resurrection of the dead saints at the pretribulational rapture (phase 2), the resurrection of Lazarus and the rest of Israel occurring after the Tribulation (phase 3), and the resurrection of the unbelievers after the millennial reign (phase 4). But by referring to Jesus' own words, Paul places the raising of all the dead saints after the Tribulation on the last day of this age.

VERSE 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

VERSE 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This verse brings full comfort to the Thessalonians. When the dead are raised, then the saints who are alive, who are left, are caught up to be with them; not one member of the Church, be he dead or alive at the time, will miss the great Day of the Lord.

Meeting Jesus In His Descent

Pretribulationists picture Jesus descending in the clouds, meeting the saints in the air, and returning with them to heaven for seven years (the time of seventieth week of Dan on earth.) But what is crucial to the posttribulational point of view is knowing where Christ's descent takes Him. We open this discussion with a quote from Bob Gundry:

"Other things being equal, the word 'descend' . . . indicates a complete, uninterrupted descent, like that of the Spirit at Christ's baptism (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32,33) and that of Christ in His first advent (John 3:13; 6:33,38,41,42,50,51,58). Where a reversal from downward to upward motion comes into view, a specific statement to that effect appears, as in Acts 10:11, 16 ('a certain object coming down, . . . and immediately the object was taken up into the sky'). In the absence of a statement indicating a halt or a sudden reversal of direction, we naturally infer a complete descent to the earth, such as will take place only at the posttribulational advent" (1).

Let's look at two of Gundry's scripture references: Matthew 3:16 and Acts 10:11,16:

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, . . . the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him (Matt. 3).

There is no mention of the Spirit reversing direction. Therefore He descended all the way down to the earth. We know that after He descended, He remained to empower Jesus' ministry.

Continued...

In Him,

Frankie boy