Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[Larry 2]

 

 

As for the man-child in 12:5, is the context really the future? I don’t see anything in 12:1-5 that needs to refer to the end time. Satan has always been a dragon and v 4 alludes to his leading a third of the angels astray when he fell in the past. This is a widely held view. Therefore all of 12:1-5 is a flashback.

 

Are you saying that you interpret the man-child as the 144,000 simply because you have to find a way for them to be in heaven in 14:1? I’m afraid that does not sound like a good reason.

 

Regards.

 

ghtan - Re your question about my interpretation of ch 2&3, I said previously that I think they read most naturally as seven real letters to seven real churches in first century AD. The implication is that John was still in first century AD when he wrote them and not transported to the end time as you hold. We can apply their contents as we apply Paul’s letters which were also written to real churches. But you are entitled to your opinion. I just wanted to show you the many problems that it invites.

 

Larry 2 - Thank you referring to the emboldened font above. I’ll just hold to the fact that the Day of the Lord, and the Lord’s Day are the same. I do agree the letters to the seven churches were written to seven churches physically in Asia at that time.

 

ghtan - As for the man-child in 12:5, is the context really the future? I don’t see anything in 12:1-5 that needs to refer to the end time. Satan has always been a dragon and v 4 alludes to his leading a third of the angels astray when he fell in the past. This is a widely held view. Therefore all of 12:1-5 is a flashback.

 

Larry 2 - Regardless the spin, Satan was not at Jesus’ birth.

Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

If this was not at Jesus birth, when did this occur?

 

ghtan - Are you saying that you interpret the man-child as the 144,000 simply because you have to find a way for them to be in heaven in 14:1? I’m afraid that does not sound like a good reason.

 

Larry 2 – No, there is more having to do with the woman in heaven and on earth where the child was born.  Rev 12:1.

 

Jesus was not caught up to heaven as soon as He was born; but He was carried into Egypt after about two years. The sign child of our Rev 12:5  was caught up to heaven as soon as it was born.

 

There are five wise virgins in Matthew Twenty-five

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

 

Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 2:27  And he (WHO? The one that keeps Jesus’ works?) shall rule them with a rod of iron. (Nations).

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

Jesus was born about sixty-nine years before this vision was given to John, which means that the birth described in Revelation 12:5  can have no reference to His birth.

 

Blessings in Jesus.

[ghtan]

 

 

 

As for the man-child in 12:5, is the context really the future? I don’t see anything in 12:1-5 that needs to refer to the end time. Satan has always been a dragon and v 4 alludes to his leading a third of the angels astray when he fell in the past. This is a widely held view. Therefore all of 12:1-5 is a flashback.

 

Are you saying that you interpret the man-child as the 144,000 simply because you have to find a way for them to be in heaven in 14:1? I’m afraid that does not sound like a good reason.

 

Regards.

 

ghtan - Re your question about my interpretation of ch 2&3, I said previously that I think they read most naturally as seven real letters to seven real churches in first century AD. The implication is that John was still in first century AD when he wrote them and not transported to the end time as you hold. We can apply their contents as we apply Paul’s letters which were also written to real churches. But you are entitled to your opinion. I just wanted to show you the many problems that it invites.

 

Larry 2 - Thank you referring to the emboldened font above. I’ll just hold to the fact that the Day of the Lord, and the Lord’s Day are the same. I do agree the letters to the seven churches were written to seven churches physically in Asia at that time.

 

ghtan - As for the man-child in 12:5, is the context really the future? I don’t see anything in 12:1-5 that needs to refer to the end time. Satan has always been a dragon and v 4 alludes to his leading a third of the angels astray when he fell in the past. This is a widely held view. Therefore all of 12:1-5 is a flashback.

 

Larry 2 - Regardless the spin, Satan was not at Jesus’ birth.

 

My comment: I don't think any one of us know where Satan is or isn't at any time.

 

Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

If this was not at Jesus birth, when did this occur?

 

My comment: I think you may be misled by KJV's colon. Modern versions use a period. The original did not have punctuation marks. The first part of the verse is not contemporaneous with the second part.

 

ghtan - Are you saying that you interpret the man-child as the 144,000 simply because you have to find a way for them to be in heaven in 14:1? I’m afraid that does not sound like a good reason.

 

Larry 2 – No, there is more having to do with the woman in heaven and on earth where the child was born.  Rev 12:1.

 

Jesus was not caught up to heaven as soon as He was born; but He was carried into Egypt after about two years. The sign child of our Rev 12:5  was caught up to heaven as soon as it was born.

 

My comment: And so, in your scheme, the 144,000 represented by the man-child are raptured as newborn babies? That takes literalism too far. Again, don't be fooled by KJV's colon in 12:5. You should really get yourself a more modern version, if only for comparison purposes.

 

There are five wise virgins in Matthew Twenty-five

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

 

Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 2:27  And he (WHO? The one that keeps Jesus’ works?) shall rule them with a rod of iron. (Nations).

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

My comment: Try Rev 19:15.

 

Jesus was born about sixty-nine years before this vision was given to John, which means that the birth described in Revelation 12:5  can have no reference to His birth.

 

My comment: That is why it is called a flashback!

 

Blessings in Jesus.

 

Tried to split the above into separate quotes but did not know how. So I inserted my comments in italics into the text above instead. Hope that makes sense.

 

I think we are getting nowhere. As you said earlier, we do not agree on most things. Let's just leave it here. Besides, you admit you have not decided whether this is rapture No. 3 or No. 4 in your scheme. Maybe when you have thought everything through, we can have another chat. Thanks for the discussion.

 

Take care.

 

PS. You can have the last word.

Edited June 20, 2015 by ghtan

[blevn1]

I believe in mid trib rapture because the beast couldnt begin to trick the elect if they werent here also there would be no neeed for the mark of the beast if there wasnt any believers still here. However i think by the time GOD has His wrath poured out we will already be off this earth.

[ghtan]

On 6/8/2016 at 9:21 PM, blevn1 said:

I believe in mid trib rapture because the beast couldnt begin to trick the elect if they werent here also there would be no neeed for the mark of the beast if there wasnt any believers still here. However i think by the time GOD has His wrath poured out we will already be off this earth.

Just thought I'd say hi. It is rare to meet a fellow mid-tribber. But there are several varieties of the latter; where do you see the rapture in the book of Revelation?

[blevn1]

15 hours ago, ghtan said:

Just thought I'd say hi. It is rare to meet a fellow mid-tribber. But there are several varieties of the latter; where do you see the rapture in the book of Revelation?

I am not real good with words but i believe when the sickles get thrust in thats when the reaping and harvesting occurs. In Matthew 13:24-29 gives an parable on this i do believe. There is many other reasons for me to think this way. Would love to hear other thoughts on this as well.

[RustyAngeL]

On 6/8/2016 at 8:21 AM, blevn1 said:

I believe in mid trib rapture because the beast couldnt begin to trick the elect if they werent here also there would be no neeed for the mark of the beast if there wasnt any believers still here. However i think by the time GOD has His wrath poured out we will already be off this earth.

I lean in that direction too.  He will deceive some but not all of us

[ghtan]

3 hours ago, blevn1 said:

I am not real good with words but i believe when the sickles get thrust in thats when the reaping and harvesting occurs. In Matthew 13:24-29 gives an parable on this i do believe. There is many other reasons for me to think this way. Would love to hear other thoughts on this as well.

You mean 14:16? Yes, I think so too. It is probably the clearest picture of the rapture in the whole book. How did you come to a mid-trib view? Were you either pre-trib or post-trib before?

[blevn1]

In all honestly most teachings ive heard or have come across has been directed to pretrib. Im only saying what the scriptures has seem to say to me. The first most important thing is to know that when The Lord calls us home. Is the perfect time,and no man (human) knows the exact day or hour.

[blevn1]

Nor do the angels or anything else.

To GOD be the glory

[blevn1]

Read revelations 7:14