Conversation with those who believe Christ has NOT returned (2nd Advent) and will NOT be coming pre trib (rapture)

[DeighAnn]

48 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Well, each one of them had to be restored BEFORE Jesus could arrive. The Jews and the articles were allowed to return to Jerusalem, the land, buildings and Temple were rebuilt. The ceremonial services were once again continued.... BUT the ONLY thing NOT returned was the Ark of the covenant- that would never be found again and this was indeed purposeful! Jesus Himself would replace the Ark - He would be the final piece or restoration- to restore everything that was present before the Jews were taken into captivity. After Jeremiah God’s Presence would not be found in the Temple until Jesus would arrive. And after the Cross it would never return! 

Hi Charlie, 

Excellent point of view,  I've never thought about it that way before,  THANK to you for sharing,  Love new angles.

 

52 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

So the entire book of Daniel shows the events from the taking away of each significant part of the Jews to the full restoration of their environment (land, buildings, articles, Temple and presence of God). This is exactly what His Plan of day is for His people (those who believe in Jesus) - He will restore ALL things as they were in the Garden. 

The Jewish experience shows and reveals ALL of mankind”s behavior, interaction and responses to God. What occurred with the Jews will happen exactly to us ... if we obey and worship Him it will be like the Garden... if we don’t it will be destruction. 

Let me know your thoughts and great to hear from you again, Charlie 

I think IF Christians today were made to go to the 'schoolmaster' before they came to the Lord,  we would not have to suffer doing exactly as the 'Jews' did.  BUT just like those who came before us we have become,  Jeshurun??


10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden;
and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the LORD.

Can't wait to see the NEW and improved models.  Cause looking around and seeing this world in the 'destroyed' state that it is in....and still being THIS BEAUTIFUL, cant even imagine...

(been having some great sunrise and sunsets last couple days, can you tell?)  

D


 

  

[DeighAnn]

9 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I'm not sure of what you are asking here.   The destruction of the temple came in Zedekiah's 11th year.   Jeremiah overlays the 18th year of Nebu with the 10th and 11th years of Zedekiah. 

Jer 32:1 KJV The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD in the tenth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, which was the eighteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar.

2Ki 25:1-2 KJV ¹ And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he, and all his host, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it; and they built forts against it round about. ² And the city was besieged unto the eleventh year of king Zedekiah.

When Nebu began his siege of Jerusalem on the 10th day of the 10th month of Zedekiah's 9th year,  this would have been early January of the year prior to the destruction of the temple,  approximately 16 months of time from the beginning of the siege, till its demise.

Jehoiachin was taken to Babylon in the 8th year of Nebu's reign,  at which time Zedekiah became king. 

2Ch 36:9-10 KJV ⁹ Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD. ¹⁰ And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem.

Nebu began his 8th year of reign in the 5th month of 597 BC, 7 years after the 5th month of 604 BC (when his reign began).  This means that Jehoiachin 's reign ended (and Zedekiah's began)  in early 596 BC (relative to a 586 BC date of destruction).  To complete that thought,  Zedekiah began his 11th year of reign in the early part of 586 BC (in the 12th or 1st month of that year).  And it ended in the 5th month of that same year.   If a king serves for only a part of his last [nth] year,  he is accredited to having served for "N" years.   That is why it says that Zedekiah was king for 11 years,  even though he only served for 10 years and 4 or 5 months.

I was trying to understand how you arrived at the servitude beginning in 496 BC. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Hi Pup, 

We would need to do a time line to see where we reckon 'the time' differently.  BUT if you want to start a post,  I will, very begrudgingly and unhappily go through it and we could explain why we believe the one way or the other.   I'll be honest with you I probably should do this again, but besides the actual NUMBERS we are using are we seeing any other conflict?   I do understand the keeping time for the reigns of the kings causes problems and corrections must be made not to mention the 2 houses have to be kept separate but know this up front,  I am terrible with numbers in almost all ways, and though it will be frustrating for me, I won't be the only one.  Just trying to be honest up front....Blessings upon you....D

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Hi PuP,  

I see what you are saying and YES, 

You are correct in that I do use a timetable set through men on EVENTs that took place in the Bible to set other events that are written therein 

BUT what I should have said is I

Never let EVENTs that aren't written of in the Bible but written in MANS HISTORY set the times for those that are.  

 

 

1 In his days Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant three years: then he turned and rebelled against him.
2 And the LORD sent against him bands of the Chaldees, and bands of the Syrians, and bands of the Moabites, and bands of the children of Ammon, and sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the LORD,
     which he spake by his servants the prophets.
3 Surely at the commandment of the LORD came this upon Judah, to remove them out of his sight, for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he did;
4 And also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the LORD would not pardon.
5 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and all that he did, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?
6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.
7 And the king of Egypt came not again any more out of his land: for the king of Babylon had taken from the river of Egypt unto the river Euphrates all that pertained to the king of Egypt.
8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
9 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father had done.
10 At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged.

11 And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his servants did besiege it.
12 And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.
13 And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the LORD, as the LORD had said.
14 And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land.
15 And he carried away Jehoiachin to Babylon, and the king's mother, and the king's wives, and his officers, and the mighty of the land, those carried he into captivity from Jerusalem to Babylon.
16 And all the men of might, even seven thousand, and craftsmen and smiths a thousand, all that were strong and apt for war, even them the king of Babylon brought captive to Babylon.
17 And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father's brother king in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah.
18 Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.
19 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that Jehoiakim had done.
20 For through the anger of the LORD it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, until he had cast them out from his presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.


Chapter 25
1 And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he, and all his host, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it: and they built forts against it round about.
2 And the city was besieged unto the eleventh year of king Zedekiah.


It did precede but by how long?  A year or so, maybe?   Certainly not 100 years, you would agree,  right?   Or am I missing some really big and important point?  If so please let me know....D

 

DeighAnn, as you are aware, I have been doing a study of Daniel for some 2 years now.... and just ONE of the most important findings has been just what you are discussing; I have read many of the most accepted interpretations on the book of Daniel and I would say that every "approach" to interpreting Daniel has begun with our (scholars, interpreters, etc.) attempts to match and identify the events and actors within the 12 chapters to OUR history books. This means not only trying to find if AE (Antiochus Epiphanes) for example fits or matches the actor / events that MAY fit those in chapter 11 but also the time factors...... 

This "approach" is what I have found to cause most of the misinterpretations in Daniel - yet they are also included in today's most accepted interpretations. It was not until I completely altered my "approach" to Daniel that I began to truly uncover the messages and intended prophecies within Daniel. One of the most important keys to understanding Daniel is to completely ignore any and all secular books AND NT books! This way I would be forced to read, study and interpret Daniel as if I was at the time of Paul.... whether before or after the Cross. God would not give him, the Jews or us the book of Daniel with the condition that we need to compare and match our interpretations to our history books - either by matching actors, events or time periods...... God had given all the information within the books prior to Daniel to understand Daniel..... Paul would not have to wait until the history books on Greece or Rome or even wait until Revelation was written to understand Daniel.

Most importantly, those secular books and even Revelation will corrupt our interpretation of Daniel - they will steer us away from IT'S messages and prophecies.... they were never intended to be a SOURCE for understanding and interpreting Daniel. Truly, Daniel and Revelation MUST AND WILL agree  with each other, but Daniel must be interpreted without those external works.

When I honored this "approach" I was forced to stay within the lines and not try to interpret Daniel outside the metal man image - this image set all the boundaries and constraints for the four kingdoms which of course will continue until His second coming. But because Daniel is so so difficult we (man) have needed to find or look for external (external to Daniel) support to reveal those enigmatic verses. Daniel does indeed interpret Daniel without them... and once one sees it they are such an amazing departure from today's accepted interpretations.

Sorry again for the long winded response, Charlie

 

 

[DeighAnn]

On 7/12/2021 at 4:06 PM, Charlie744 said:

DeighAnn, as you are aware, I have been doing a study of Daniel for some 2 years now.... and just ONE of the most important findings has been just what you are discussing; I have read many of the most accepted interpretations on the book of Daniel and I would say that every "approach" to interpreting Daniel has begun with our (scholars, interpreters, etc.) attempts to match and identify the events and actors within the 12 chapters to OUR history books. This means not only trying to find if AE (Antiochus Epiphanes) for example fits or matches the actor / events that MAY fit those in chapter 11 but also the time factors...... 

This "approach" is what I have found to cause most of the misinterpretations in Daniel - yet they are also included in today's most accepted interpretations. It was not until I completely altered my "approach" to Daniel that I began to truly uncover the messages and intended prophecies within Daniel. One of the most important keys to understanding Daniel is to completely ignore any and all secular books AND NT books! This way I would be forced to read, study and interpret Daniel as if I was at the time of Paul.... whether before or after the Cross. God would not give him, the Jews or us the book of Daniel with the condition that we need to compare and match our interpretations to our history books - either by matching actors, events or time periods...... God had given all the information within the books prior to Daniel to understand Daniel..... Paul would not have to wait until the history books on Greece or Rome or even wait until Revelation was written to understand Daniel.

Most importantly, those secular books and even Revelation will corrupt our interpretation of Daniel - they will steer us away from IT'S messages and prophecies.... they were never intended to be a SOURCE for understanding and interpreting Daniel. Truly, Daniel and Revelation MUST AND WILL agree  with each other, but Daniel must be interpreted without those external works.

When I honored this "approach" I was forced to stay within the lines and not try to interpret Daniel outside the metal man image - this image set all the boundaries and constraints for the four kingdoms which of course will continue until His second coming. But because Daniel is so so difficult we (man) have needed to find or look for external (external to Daniel) support to reveal those enigmatic verses. Daniel does indeed interpret Daniel without them... and once one sees it they are such an amazing departure from today's accepted interpretations.

Sorry again for the long winded response, Charlie

 

 

Hi Charlie, 

I am aware of your journey through Daniel along with the restrictions you are placing on 'it', and I was wondering how exactly does the holy Spirit lead and guide when placed under such parameters?  

Was that long winded? Not as far as I am concerned.   I don't believe that Gods Word can be learned one paragraph at a time (and AGAIN and/or As Usual I find myself in the minority)

Am I the only one who never ever read 'those' books or papers on purpose? (though  I would imagine they all come into play in study bibles,  so in some ways, I am finding, I actually have, ugh) 

Would you agree that if the prophecies 'of the end times' in book of Daniel had been 'opened' at the time Paul walked the earth, we would all now know and understand them exactly as we all now know and understand that Salvation was 'opened' to the gentiles and there was a blindness set forth?  

So I agree, 'don't compare to mans writings' but why not allow it to be compared to Revelation?  that I don't get so much, with the loss of the 'here a little there a little'....

Finally my questions.  Do you have any problems with the prophecies that were just future to Daniel or just the ones that are future to us?  What is your understanding of the two different languages employed?  How are you sure you are 'rightly dividing'?  What is the most outstanding difference you have found between mans interpretation and Scriptures?

Thank you for your thoughts Charlie....   D

[Charlie744]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Hi Charlie, 

I am aware of your journey through Daniel along with the restrictions you are placing on 'it', and I was wondering how exactly does the holy Spirit lead and guide when placed under such parameters?  

 

DeighAnn, ALWAYS great to hear from you and get your questions and thoughts on the verses at their interpretations!

I have to be candid here, I am a little confused by the question... I am sure this maybe due to the way I presented my responses earlier. Sometimes / often, I try to type as fast as I am thinking through the response I intend to give and do not realize I may have skipped some information intended to put down .... I will attempt to respond to this as I read it and hopefully clarify my original response.

I don't believe I am placing ANY restrictions ... in fact, I believe I am identifying those restrictions and parameters that are within these verses. They are specifically placed in Daniel to guide us and keep us within those boundaries so our interpretations can be guided. As you know, there are always more than one meaning or interpretation or application for His verses. They can have multiple applications and also be very relevant to more than one period in time. So in this case I am ASSUMING you are referring to the restrictions I mentioned regarding the DREAM SEQUENCE. 

Many of today's most accepted interpretations of the four kingdoms begin with chapter 2 - but when you follow them forward and their interpretations are carried to chapters 7 and 8 one finds they are based on Daniel's interpretation sequence and not the dream sequence. This is a major flaw in their "approach". God gave the dream sequence to Nebuchadnezzar - four gentile kingdoms each were given equal time and weight in their description. No one kingdom was emphasized. Each was given a specific body part and color code (metal type) so we would have no less than two very specific characteristics to determine and identify each of the four  kingdoms. These were purposeful... so we could determine the entire height (beginning of metal man image or Babylon, and the end of the metal man image or the crushing of the image into powder at His second coming), as well as a clear understanding of the boundaries for each of the four kingdoms - each would come right after the other, there were separated by very different body parts and metal types AND there were NO separations between each kingdom. God gave us these parameters and boundaries to ensure we would not deviate or color (interpretations)  outside the lines. Then, He gave Daniel the interpretations for the DREAM sequence, meaning these interpretations MUST stay within the boundaries and parameters of the dream sequence - they can not be used to generate interpretations that are outside the dream sequence. The perfect example I have found relates to chapter 11. Just about ALL of today's interpretations content the first half of 11 speaks about AE and Ptolemy empires AFTER Alexander. However, that is due to at least two errors: they failed to follow the boundaries and parameters of the four kingdoms in the DREAM sequence, and because they can not figure out the real meaning of chapter 11, they look to our history books to try and match up those actors and events that MAY seem to fit these verses..... they are so far off..... 

So that is my response to the restriction concern you mentioned and I hope it makes some sense to you... if not, we can continue discussing and talking about....

 

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Was that long winded? Not as far as I am concerned.   I don't believe that Gods Word can be learned one paragraph at a time (and AGAIN and/or As Usual I find myself in the minority)

Well, thank you very much... and you are so right!  I realize you are well aware of just how much God repeats and enlarges His stories, messages and prophecies over and over again in different times and situations. All to reveal His message to us and ensure we see His consistency and guidance. So if we try and find the correct interpretations within Daniel, we should be able to test them going back in either direction - are the interpretations in Daniel consistent with some of God's stories found in pre-Daniel books? Are our interpretations able to be brought forward to post Cross (Revelation) and be found to be consistent? 

When there is a departure from His ONE theme throughout the Scriptures, then we might ask ourselves if this particular interpretation is inconsistent and falls outside the lines... back to my example of chapter 11, there is nothing in the earlier chapters of Daniel (2, 7 or 8) or specific references to Cyrus or Alexander found in Ezra or Jeremiah, etc., that REMOTELY would cause us to consider AE or the Ptolemy's to have ANY place in His message or plan of salvation. 

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Am I the only one who never ever read 'those' books or papers on purpose? (though  I would imagine they all come into play in study bibles,  so in some ways, I am finding, I actually have, ugh) 

 

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Would you agree that if the prophecies 'of the end times' in book of Daniel had been 'opened' at the time Paul walked the earth, we would all now know and understand them exactly as we all now know and understand that Salvation was 'opened' to the gentiles and there was a blindness set forth?  

There are 3 very distinctive period the book of Daniel speaks to.... Obviously, the first time period would be for the time of Daniel. This would represent the 70 years in captivity.  The second period must cover and speak to the "return or restoration of the Jews" so they and Jerusalem will be prepared and "in place" for the coming Messiah (the One who would complete the last piece of those things taken away to Babylon.... He would be the replacement piece, if you will, for the ARK). The third and final period will cover the period from the time of the Cross to His second coming. There are no less than 2 times Daniel mentions that he was told to "seal up the vision" or where he would not be given the ability to understand the message. Almost all contend this speaks to the same issue but they do not... they tell us that the prophecies and messages given each time will be limited to one of those remaining 2 periods.... Daniel does not have to know what the vision may mean since it will occur hundreds of years after his passing. He would NEVER understand how the coming Messiah (His God) could possibly be crucified....God spared him from that information - he did not need to know this). Later on. there is a second mention where Daniel is told the "understanding", however, he still has no idea what was told to him - it applies to a very different time  - the time of the end.

Each vision or message or prophecy has been given to their own time period for understanding.... We have ALL information we will ever need to properly interpret His messages and prophecies since we have the complete book of Daniel, we have all the actual history of the the Messiah and His first coming and His crucifixion, AND we have the last 2,000 years post Cross to compare and match up to the verses in Daniel's last few chapters (8 - 12). The major reason we have not interpreted Daniel accurately is because of our "approach"... We continue to try and match up the verses in the later chapters to our history books.  That will only get us "outside the lines" of the DREAM sequence. God did not place an asterisk on the last 4 or 5 chapters of Daniel indicating we need to wait a some 2,000 years so we can understand them by looking and comparing them to our history books..... 

 

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So I agree, 'don't compare to mans writings' but why not allow it to be compared to Revelation?  that I don't get so much, with the loss of the 'here a little there a little'....

Because Daniel come first and must be interpreted first...It's interpretations must be carried forward to Revelation. Today, because so many have ignored the boundaries and guidelines of Daniel's DREAM sequence in chapter 2, there interpretations of 7,8, 9 and 11 are severely flawed. Then these "flawed" interpretations are carried forward to Revelation and corrupt its intended message. At I can assure you I have seen MANY interpretations (today's accepted interpretations) for the latter chapters of Daniel that have been generated by the verses in Revelation!!!! So many scholars who have interpreted the later chapters of Daniel have literally be unable to unpack them --- they are simply too complicated and will not open themselves up for interpretation.  Consequently, since they know these two books MUST agree, they skip to Revelation to determine if they can interpret certain verses in Revelation and then bring them BACK to those verses in Daniel that were yet to be understood... This is circular yet if these same scholars contend that since they believe what they found in Revelation to be a proper interpretation, they can bring it back to Daniel and tie it in to it's verses.... wrong approach and the process is flawed... And it ALL GOES BACK TO THE APPROACH - GOD HAS GIVEN US THE DREAM SEQUENCE FOR A SPECIFIC REASON... HE PLACES THE DOUBLE YELLOW LINES IN THE ROAD SO WE WILL NOT CROSS OVER ... But we have ignored them and we all know it is illegal to pass another car by crossing over the double yellow lines........

 

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Finally my questions.  Do you have any problems with the prophecies that were just future to Daniel or just the ones that are future to us?  What is your understanding of the two different languages employed?  How are you sure you are 'rightly dividing'?  What is the most outstanding difference you have found between mans interpretation and Scriptures?

Thank you for your thoughts Charlie....   D

Wow! Unbelievable and great questions!!!!! First, as I mentioned above, if one has a particular interpretation it is only as valid and strong as how if fits and is consistent with HIS plan of salvation and the other stories and events He has given us in His Scriptures.  I believe I have challenged these new interpretations against TODAY'S ACCEPTED INTERPRETATIONS and also against or with His prophecies and stories found within the Scriptures..... again. God repeats and enlarges His messages - He does this clearly in the book of Daniel alone -- He begins with the Dream sequence and then expands on this in no less than 4 separate chapters - He immediately expands on the DREAM sequence with the INTERPRETATION sequence also in chapter 2, then he give us a completely new and different view of the DREAM sequence in chapters 7 and 8. He then expands on the fourth kingdom in chapter 11 and of course the 12th chapter discussing the end times. 

Specifically, TODAY'S PROPHECIES - I believe you are referring to those prophecies yet to take place..... well, they ALL stem from our ability to accurately interpret the DREAM sequence and use its boundaries and constraints to interpret and understand those prophecies found in the later chapters of Daniel... and since many interpretations are seriously flawed that focus on the fourth kingdom and since the fourth kingdom covers some 2,000 years ending with His second coming, we are not understanding those prophecies of Daniel and can not apply them to Revelation. 

Now here is where I need to pull back... and I am very sorry I have to do so.... When I began this study or after my understanding of TODAY'S ACCEPTED INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BOOK OF DANIEL BY THE MOST QUOTED AND ACCEPTED SCHOLARS ON DANIEL,  I came up with a list of those "issues" which I did not accept - I had NO understanding of Daniel at that time and thus NO ability to offer and alternative theory or interpretation, but I knew they just did not make sense - my mind was telling me they were far outside the double yellow lines .... there was a lack of consistency from the messages I thought I was seeing in the earlier chapters to the later chapters of Daniel. I felt if I could identify those "issues" and focus on them I could hopefully find the intended meaning of these verses and where they steered us back inside the double yellow lines:

Here is the original listing which, after resolving or identifying their true underlying messages (my opinion of course), this list has allowed me to expand it even further and where I would focus on their interpretations:

1) Determine the basis / reason for the two languages in Daniel,

2) Determine why chapter 4 was written by Nebuchadnezzar (ties in with #1),

3) Why is chapter 1  in Hebrew?

4) Why is 2:1 - 2:4 in Hebrew?

5) What are the ceramic and potter's clay,

6) When did the "Stone" strike the feet?

7) Why didn't the "Stone" strike the toes"

8) Why didn't the "Stone" break into pieces  only the feet and not the entire image?

9) Why and when will the image be crushed into powder?

10) Who or what are the 10 toes?

11) Who are what is the little horn?

12) Why does the beast have nails of brass?

13) What is the meaning of time, times and 1/2 times?

14) What is the meaning / interpretations of (9:24 -27)?

15) What does the 2,300 days mean?

16) What does the 1,290 days mean?

17) What does the 1,335 days mean?

18) What is the Abomination of Desolation?

19) Absolutely ALL of chapter 11 mean?

This list does not represent all of the "issues" or interpretations that are considered "today's accepted interpretations", which I have challenged, but these are the most important ones to date. So, if we MIGHT ASSUME today's accepted interpretations MAY NOT be locked down, then one can easily see just how much they will corrupt our understanding of not only Daniel but Revelation!!!!!!!  

DeighAnn, here is where I have to pull back and also apologize --- I have or I believe I have been able to determine each and every one of the 19 "issues" mentioned above and they DO NOT agree with today's accepted interpretations. And because I am interested in completing a commentary on the Book of Daniel which of course will focus on these 19 or more major interpretations, I can not reveal most of these findings....

I mentioned in my first response that I literally came across this post and felt a need to respond to the chapter 2 feet and toes issue because I am now rewriting my chapter 2 commentary  and it is right in front of me..... 

 

Now, regarding your last question: what is the most outstanding difference between man's interpretations and Scriptures.... (most important question ever):

Man / scholars attempt to match the verses (in this case of course is Daniel) to OUR HISTORY BOOKS. We seem to try and get confirmation and acceptance of His prophecies only when we can identify or match the verses to our historical actors or events. When we have difficulty doing so, many scholars simply conclude some verses were not written by Daniel but by a second century BC author or they are simply a fable... since no one could predict so accurately. Rather than attempt to bring in secular books and information to confirm the Scriptures we should stay as far away from the History section of the library .... if we want to confirm the verses in Daniel we should head over to the Biblical or Religious section of the library and search those records to match up....

The "approach" to studying Daniel is entirely wrong - it is not an historical approach but a spiritual approach that is needed... we are NOT going to find the meaning of His prophetic messages in or near our history books. When we have difficulties in interpreting many verses in Daniel, and there are so many enigmatic verses, we need to stay within the double yellow lines and continue to focus on His Words and not to look outside in the history section of the library.

Most importantly, if you look at the above  listing you will find that many of today's accepted interpretations will have as their foundation a strong relationship to the characters, or actors and events in our history books - an "historical" approach to understanding Daniel....It took me no less than 7 months to find the key to chapter 11... EASILY THE MOST UNBELIEVABLY DIFFICULT CHAPTER TO UNPACK..... I have never had to utilize my God given skills in such a way as with chapter 11... and I would NEVER have come close to unpacking it if the Holy Spirit did not see me drowning in the middle of the ocean with no possibility of coming up for air..... when I asked for His help He indeed showed me the most simple answer - it was right in front of me the whole time and its was just sooooo simple.... God is great! So the MOST IMPORTANT "APPROACH" IS TO TRY AND SEE JESUS IN EACH AND EVERY VERSE OF DANIEL...... not an actor or character or event in OUT HISTORY BOOKS. When we ask ourselves,"where is Jesus in this verse", we will have NO problem interpreting Daniel.

Charlie

  

 

 

 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

12 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Many of today's most accepted interpretations of the four kingdoms begin with chapter 2 - but when you follow them forward and their interpretations are carried to chapters 7 and 8 one finds they are based on Daniel's interpretation sequence and not the dream sequence. This is a major flaw in their "approach". God gave the dream sequence to Nebuchadnezzar - four gentile kingdoms each were given equal time and weight in their description. No one kingdom was emphasized. Each was given a specific body part and color code (metal type) so we would have no less than two very specific characteristics to determine and identify each of the four  kingdoms. These were purposeful... so we could determine the entire height (beginning of metal man image or Babylon, and the end of the metal man image or the crushing of the image into powder at His second coming), as well as a clear understanding of the boundaries for each of the four kingdoms - each would come right after the other, there were separated by very different body parts and metal types AND there were NO separations between each kingdom.

Hi Charlie,  

Thank you and thank you again and just going to jump right in with the questions especially now that I know you are writing something.  And if you would please go back and read what you wrote LIKE YOU had never read any of those things because I DON'T understand what you are saying because I don't know what they are saying so don't know how what they are saying affects/effects it all.  Know what I'm saying?  

First, why do you say 4 kingdoms and not 5?  Reason I ask is

Daniel 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

Daniel 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


Daniel 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Do you see any relationship between this happening and God giving the dream?

Jeremiah 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.

Jeremiah 36:24 Yet they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, neither the king, nor any of his servants that heard all these words.

Which of these are included in the '4' and which one isn't and what verses convinced you of that?  (if 'that' is correct)
Gold, silver, brass, iron, clay
Iron, clay, brass, silver, gold
Iron, brass, clay, silver, gold

You state 'equal time and weight' given each.  Where does that come from?

WEIGHT wise they are in descending order making the statue VERY top heavy.  
EQUAL wise they are also descending in value also.  I don't see an equal 'time'presented either.

Why do you have the body part and color taking precedence over the weight, position and value?  How does that make more sense when everyone knows that GOLD the most valuable, heavy and at the top, dirt/clay, least, and at the bottom.  What would body part and color tell us? 

 

Thank you again for allowing me to be a part of something similar to  Then Daniel went to his house, and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.

Hopefully we agree that  "in the last days, the latter days" etc.  covers both the 1st and 2nd Advents

 

Daniel 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

(makes me think of 'who' Jesus will destroy with the BRIGHTNESS of His coming, just love GODs WORD!!!)

Do you believe/agree there will be ONE kingdom ruling on earth when Christ arrives?  that being

'The Feet kingdom' the only kingdom (part of the image) to 'smote'.  

a kingdom made up of 'PARTS' that DON'T MIX EVEN A LITTLE BIT as I'm sure everyone knows. (makes one think Gods Elect and Fallen angels, don't it?) 

Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

WHICH (though you don't know it yet, will be confirmed by a few verses that go like this And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

(the last one is felled by Satans arrival bringing in 'the one is' and the 'not yet come' comes at the very end which would be the end of THE LORDS DAY/1000 years Satan is bound And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea)

 

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


 

 

Daniel 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

 

Daniel 5:28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

SO THE BOOK OF DANIEL CLEARLY GIVES US

1)BABYLON, THEN 

2)  THE MEDES AND PERSIANS 
Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

 

3)
Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
 

4) 
Daniel 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.


5) 
Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, WHEN THE TRANSGRESSORS ARE COME TO THE FULL 



6)

a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power and


he shall destroy



wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise,


and shall destroy


the mighty and the holy people.

 

Which ends my question about '4 kingdoms'.  Figure I better stop for right now
BUT I say this again, THEY ALL HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON 

POSSESSION OF JERUSALEM.  The place in all of the universe that GOD 'married'.

 

 

This because the intensity of it never hit home before, like it did today.  

Ezekiel 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 16:2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

Ezekiel 16:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

Ezekiel 16:4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

Ezekiel 16:5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

Ezekiel 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

Ezekiel 16:7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

Ezekiel 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love;




AND I SPREAD MY SKIRT OVER THEE,


 

and covered thy nakedness yea, I sware unto thee


and entered into a covenant with thee,


saith the Lord GOD,


and thou becamest mine.

 

Ezekiel 16:9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

Ezekiel 16:10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.

Ezekiel 16:11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.

Ezekiel 16:12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

Ezekiel 16:13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

Ezekiel 16:14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.



 

Ezekiel 16:15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Ezekiel 16:16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

Ezekiel 16:17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,

Ezekiel 16:18 And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

Ezekiel 16:19 My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,

Ezekiel 16:21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

Ezekiel 16:22 And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

Ezekiel 16:23 And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the LORD GOD;)

Ezekiel 16:24 That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street.

Ezekiel 16:25 Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

Ezekiel 16:26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.

Ezekiel 16:27 Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way.

Ezekiel 16:28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.

Ezekiel 16:29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith.

Ezekiel 16:30 How weak is thine heart, saith the LORD GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;

Ezekiel 16:31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;

Ezekiel 16:32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!

Ezekiel 16:33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.

Ezekiel 16:34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.

Ezekiel 16:35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

Ezekiel 16:36 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

Ezekiel 16:37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

Ezekiel 16:38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

Ezekiel 16:39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.

Ezekiel 16:40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.

Ezekiel 16:41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

Ezekiel 16:42 So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

Ezekiel 16:43 Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast fretted me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord GOD: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.

Ezekiel 16:44 Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.

Ezekiel 16:45 Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.

Ezekiel 16:46 And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.

Ezekiel 16:47 Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.

Ezekiel 16:48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

Ezekiel 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Ezekiel 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Ezekiel 16:51 Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

Ezekiel 16:52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

Ezekiel 16:53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

Ezekiel 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.

Ezekiel 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Ezekiel 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

Ezekiel 16:57 Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.

Ezekiel 16:58 Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD.

Ezekiel 16:59 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

Ezekiel 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

Ezekiel 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.

Ezekiel 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD:

Ezekiel 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

[DeighAnn]

16 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

.It took me no less than 7 months to find the key to chapter 11... EASILY THE MOST UNBELIEVABLY DIFFICULT CHAPTER TO UNPACK....

Rightly dividing the past and the future verses?  or figuring of the 1st and 2nd kings of North and South?  Does a change come at 20 or 21?  I am probably way off base here but I will go read and refresh later this after noon and make some educated guesses.  Just didn't want to lose my thoughts...D

[Charlie744]

7 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Rightly dividing the past and the future verses?  or figuring of the 1st and 2nd kings of North and South?  Does a change come at 20 or 21?  I am probably way off base here but I will go read and refresh later this after noon and make some educated guesses.  Just didn't want to lose my thoughts...D

DeighAnn, I am going to respond to this brief response of yours and come back to your earlier one just above since it is so detailed and will obviously take longer to address.....

Not sure I understand what you mean when you ask "rightly dividing the past and the future verses?".... 

 

Chapter 11, contrary to everyone's beliefs has nothing to do whatsoever with Antiochus Epiphanes or the Ptolemy's  - they happen to be the post Alexander actors that have been "fitted" or "matched" to Daniel's verses in chapter 11. Once again, the scholars attempt to match his verses to OUR HISTORY BOOKS  and search for events, times or characters that might fit the verses.... Wrong approach...Daniel is NOT a history book ... it is a prophetic book and must be analyzed and interpreted accordingly... God wants us to find HIM in these verses not AE or some other minor character of the time...

Chapter 11 begins in the fourth and final kingdom of pagan Rome.  

Charlie

[Charlie744]

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Hi Charlie,  

Thank you and thank you again and just going to jump right in with the questions especially now that I know you are writing something.  And if you would please go back and read what you wrote LIKE YOU had never read any of those things because I DON'T understand what you are saying because I don't know what they are saying so don't know how what they are saying affects/effects it all.  Know what I'm saying?  

First, why do you say 4 kingdoms and not 5?  Reason I ask is

Daniel 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

Daniel 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

The feet and toes are not a separate kingdom but part of the last kingdom. This last kingdom will be "divided" when the "Stone" stikes the feet of the image. Consequently, it was ONE kingdom prior to this activity. It would be no different had the "Stone" strike any one of the other 3 kingdoms - If God had decided the "Stone" would strike the chest and arms of the image instead of at the feet, then He would have "divided" that kingdom into two ... but He decided to strike the feet to divide this last kingdom or section of the image.

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

After the "Stone" strikes the image at its feet, it now has effectively separated the two materials - iron and clay. They are no longer a mixture of iron and clay... God had to break them apart or divide them before He would be able to "mold" those pieces of "potters clay" v. those He could not use - those represented as "ceramic clay". Ceramic clay has already been baked or fired and hardened and are no longer useful for a "Potter" (God) to mold... whereas "potters clay" is still soft and malleable and He can place this clay on the Potter's  wheel and mold them / it into a vessel of His choosing.  

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Daniel 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Do you see any relationship between this happening and God giving the dream?

Jeremiah 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.

Jeremiah 36:24 Yet they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, neither the king, nor any of his servants that heard all these words.

Not sure what you are asking here or the question re: "the relationship"... what does that apply to ..... confused, sorry.

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Which of these are included in the '4' and which one isn't and what verses convinced you of that?  (if 'that' is correct)
Gold, silver, brass, iron, clay
Iron, clay, brass, silver, gold
Iron, brass, clay, silver, gold

Sorry DeighAnn, I am a little confused... there are four kingdoms of gold, silver, brazz and iron WITH FEET OF IRON AND CLAY....

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

You state 'equal time and weight' given each.  Where does that come from?

WEIGHT wise they are in descending order making the statue VERY top heavy.  
EQUAL wise they are also descending in value also.  I don't see an equal 'time'presented either.

Sorry DeighAnn, when I use the term "weight" I was not referring to a "weight of measure" ..... I was trying to convey that each of the four kingdoms in the DREAM sequence were presented or discussed with the same amount of emphasis... Daniel essentially gives Nebuchadnezzar a rather brief but equal understanding of the four kingdoms --- he does not spent more time on any one kingdom over the other... 

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Why do you have the body part and color taking precedence over the weight, position and value?  How does that make more sense when everyone knows that GOLD the most valuable, heavy and at the top, dirt/clay, least, and at the bottom.  What would body part and color tell us? 

I don't think the body part is taking precedence over the metal type.... they are another way God is using to ensure we identify each of the four....We can identify each kingdom by the metal type AND the body part so there is no confusion.... belt and suspenders.. but they also give us much more than just that....

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Thank you again for allowing me to be a part of something similar to  Then Daniel went to his house, and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.

Hopefully we agree that  "in the last days, the latter days" etc.  covers both the 1st and 2nd Advents

Not sure what you mean here but when you read Daniel there are two mentions of latter days and if I remember them correctly, they are connected to the comments about "shutting up or sealing up"..... two different periods RELATIVE TO DANIEL. one is the coming of the Messiah and the latter on is at end times.
 

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Daniel 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

(makes me think of 'who' Jesus will destroy with the BRIGHTNESS of His coming, just love GODs WORD!!!)

I can see where you might connect the two .... please take a look at the many characteristics / attributes that Daniel gives to Nebuchadnezzar in the INTERPRETATION SEQUENCE.  King of kings, all things have been given you, etc., .... do you see that same kind of words being made to Jesus? Of course Nebuchadnezzar is NOT a Jesus figure but I would ask that you might look at all four of the kingdoms in the image..... and attempt to compare them to the four gospels...... 

Matthew is written to the Jews and speaks about Jesus the KING....(Nebuchadnezzar was the king), Mark speaks to Jesus as the "suffering servant".... Cyrus was God's, servant, Luke spoke about Jesus as a "man", this man would die on the Cross as destroy sin by His sacrifice, Alexander was specifically sent as a great man who would destroy all the nations who killed and mistreated the Jews, John spoke of Jesus as God on earth, the Creator of all things, Jesus and God were One and the same. In the fourth and final kingdom, the "Stone" was Jesus, and He was from the "Stone" was from the Mountain.....

Daniel is remarkable and God has embedded so much for us to see .... but everyone seems to try and look for other men in our history books to match up to the verses in Daniel instead of trying to see how they speak about Jesus..... 

The ENTIRE book of Daniel is NOT broken into two sections - an historical section and a prophetic section..... it is ALL prophetic but carried THROUGH four historical kingdoms.... these four kingdoms are just a vehicle to carry the messages and prophetic verses that speak to and about Jesus....The four kingdoms just happen to drive the vehicle during their time on earth.

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you believe/agree there will be ONE kingdom ruling on earth when Christ arrives?  that being

No. The fourth kingdom or the beast of Daniel 7 will continue to the end of time. This beast is nothing more than all the previous characteristics and attributes of the four kingdoms... they represent mankind and all that he has constructed and built over the years. Most people attempt to identify this last one kingdom in the same way they attempt to identify the actors and events in chapter 11 - they continue to search for a man or a physical kingdom or group - Islam or Russia or China or Egypt, etc. God is NOT interested in any one of man's groups or made up country boundaries.... they have all been addressed (first four kingdoms down right up to the feet). Then there is no Greece or Rome... everything is now about one believing in Jesus or you don't. No more Greek or Gentile...(Russian, American, Chinese or Islam, etc.). God is only interested in a one on one relationship with each of us..... that is where the battle is ..... He has no interest in lines or boundaries drawn by man to define a particular country. He is not concerned with Islam v Christianity... He is ONLY concerned about each and every one of us individually.....He specifically gave us HIS Holy Spirit so that EACH ONE OF US has the ability to ask Him to come into us and change us .... the Holy Spirit is NOT given to the Christians, or the Americans or the Italians or anyone else..... Man  and his organizations, whether they be political or secular or religious will and have continued to do what they want...... nothing has changed over 6,000 years..... God has given us the four kingdoms in the image to reveal just how we treat each other, war with each other and the different types of governments and organizations we create.... Only when the "Stone" breaks the iron from the clay and exposes the individual "potters clay" does He reveal how He will be dealing with us - He will place EACH piece of "potter's clay" on HIS potter's wheel and mold us into a vessel of HIS liking and to be able to be filled with HIS Holy Spirit.... you will never see Islam or America or Russian or any other man made organization being placed on the "Potter's wheel".

The entire metal man image will be crushed into powder ...... not the vessels He has made.

 

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

'The Feet kingdom' the only kingdom (part of the image) to 'smote'.  

a kingdom made up of 'PARTS' that DON'T MIX EVEN A LITTLE BIT as I'm sure everyone knows. (makes one think Gods Elect and Fallen angels, don't it?) 

Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

This is the "Stone" (Jesus) who would divide the fourth kingdom... separate the iron and the clay..... only the "potter's clay" is able to be used by God to be formed into a vessel to be filled with His Holy Spirit. Ceramic clay and iron have no place or use on the potter's wheel... they have already been baked or hardened and they refuse to be molded into something that God can use..... 

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The crushing into powder is at the end  of time. Jesus will return and destroy all things that have rejecting Him. Obviously, this has not yet happened since we are still here on earth and He is allowing the wheat and the tares to grow together. The wheat (potter's clay) and the tares (ceramic clay and iron) continue on until His second coming.

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

WHICH (though you don't know it yet, will be confirmed by a few verses that go like this And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

(the last one is felled by Satans arrival bringing in 'the one is' and the 'not yet come' comes at the very end which would be the end of THE LORDS DAY/1000 years Satan is bound And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea)

Much of this can be found in the book of Daniel... but only if TODAY'S ACCEPTED INTERPRETATIONS are corrected...... the ones that affect the end times and are in the latter chapters of Daniel have been matched or tied to AE and the Ptolemy's, etc., as opposed to the ONLY ONE they should be and are speaking about - Jesus... until Daniel is properly interpreted, Revelation is corrupted by these misinterpretations of Daniel.... this is why I mentioned earlier, we must interpret Daniel and bring those understandings and interpretations forward to Revelation.

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men but they shall not cleave one to anot

Who are the seeds of men? This is an easy one. In the Scriptures --- the Scriptures will interpret the Scriptures... God always provides us the answers but we (mankind and interpreters continue to look for them in OUR HISTORY BOOKS.... "the seed of men" are identified in pre-Daniel books.

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
 

Easy one.... when did the "Stone" strike the feet?  Jesus came to earth and He indeed would divide those who believe in HIm and those who would reject HIm. This happened within the four kingdoms - the image......His Kingdom began at the Cross and will grow until the end of times and will never be destroyed.... but the image (all man's kingdoms) will be destroyed.

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

 

 

Daniel 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

 

Daniel 5:28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

SO THE BOOK OF DANIEL CLEARLY GIVES US

1)BABYLON, THEN 

2)  THE MEDES AND PERSIANS 
Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

 

3)
Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
 

4) 
Daniel 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.


5) 
Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, WHEN THE TRANSGRESSORS ARE COME TO THE FULL 



6)

a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power and


he shall destroy



wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise,


and shall destroy


the mighty and the holy people.

 

Which ends my question about '4 kingdoms'.  Figure I better stop for right now
BUT I say this again, THEY ALL HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON 

POSSESSION OF JERUSALEM.  The place in all of the universe that GOD 'married'.

You are right... everything revolves around Jerusalem as it should. 

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

This because the intensity of it never hit home before, like it did today.  

Ezekiel 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 16:2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

Ezekiel 16:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

Ezekiel 16:4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

Ezekiel 16:5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

Ezekiel 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

Ezekiel 16:7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

Ezekiel 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love;




AND I SPREAD MY SKIRT OVER THEE,


 

and covered thy nakedness yea, I sware unto thee


and entered into a covenant with thee,


saith the Lord GOD,


and thou becamest mine.

 

Ezekiel 16:9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

Ezekiel 16:10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.

Ezekiel 16:11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.

Ezekiel 16:12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

Ezekiel 16:13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

Ezekiel 16:14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.



 

Ezekiel 16:15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Ezekiel 16:16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

Ezekiel 16:17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,

Ezekiel 16:18 And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

Ezekiel 16:19 My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,

Ezekiel 16:21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

Ezekiel 16:22 And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

Ezekiel 16:23 And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the LORD GOD;)

Ezekiel 16:24 That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street.

Ezekiel 16:25 Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

Ezekiel 16:26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.

Ezekiel 16:27 Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way.

Ezekiel 16:28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.

Ezekiel 16:29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith.

Ezekiel 16:30 How weak is thine heart, saith the LORD GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;

Ezekiel 16:31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;

Ezekiel 16:32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!

Ezekiel 16:33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.

Ezekiel 16:34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.

Ezekiel 16:35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

Ezekiel 16:36 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

Ezekiel 16:37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

Ezekiel 16:38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

Ezekiel 16:39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.

Ezekiel 16:40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.

Ezekiel 16:41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

Ezekiel 16:42 So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

Ezekiel 16:43 Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast fretted me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord GOD: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.

Ezekiel 16:44 Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.

Ezekiel 16:45 Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.

Ezekiel 16:46 And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.

Ezekiel 16:47 Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.

Ezekiel 16:48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

Ezekiel 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Ezekiel 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Ezekiel 16:51 Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

Ezekiel 16:52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

Ezekiel 16:53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

Ezekiel 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.

Ezekiel 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Ezekiel 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

Ezekiel 16:57 Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.

Ezekiel 16:58 Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD.

Ezekiel 16:59 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

Ezekiel 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

Ezekiel 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.

Ezekiel 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD:

Ezekiel 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment.... I hope some of this makes sense.... I am more than sure my interpretations will not be accepted ..... maybe by some but for me they make sense....... But whether my interpretations are correct, partially correct or less... I can assure you that the 19 or more "issues" mentioned to you in my last email that reflect TODAY'S ACCEPTED INTERPRETATIONS BY ALL THE NOTED SCHOLARS AND EXPOSITORS ARE SERIOUSLY FLAWED .... THEY ARE MORE ATTEMPTS TO MATCH DANIEL'S VERSES TO OUR HISTORY BOOKS.

 Charlie

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

After the "Stone" strikes the image at its feet, it now has effectively separated the two materials - iron and clay. They are no longer a mixture of iron and clay... God had to break them apart or divide them before He would be able to "mold" those pieces of "potters clay" v. those He could not use - those represented as "ceramic clay". Ceramic clay has already been baked or fired and hardened and are no longer useful for a "Potter" (God) to mold... whereas "potters clay" is still soft and malleable and He can place this clay on the Potter's  wheel and mold them / it into a vessel of His choosing.  

Hi Charlie,  

Here we agree  "When the 'Stone' strikes the image at its feet...."   

 

Here not so much, 
they that are broken apart are broken apart NOT BECAUSE there is to be any more 'molding' going to be taking place but that division is the division of the sheep and goats, the good and bad, the marked and not marked, the end of the ages because it is THE CLOSING OF THE OPEN DOOR. 

THAT 'Stone' made without hands' that is coming to crust this last and final rebellious kingdom of this age and to bring about ALL nations under the rod of Iron of our Lord Jesus Christ.   

THE DREAM foretells WHAT?  

Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest TILL THAT A STONE CUT OUT WITHOUT HANDS,

WHO IS THE STONE THAT THE BUILDERS REJECTED?  WHO HAS BECOME THE CORNER STONE?  

which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

THAT KINGDOM IS DESTROYED, BROKEN INTO INDIVIDUAL (PEOPLE) PIECES

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH.....AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.  AND THAT GREAT MOUNTAIN FILLS THE WHOLE EARTH AS that that was of Satans 'tribulation/kingdom'  IS BURNED UP AND BLOWN AWAY.  

THIS IS the return of Christ.  It can be nothing else, it can be no one else as NO ONE ever has or EVER will be capable of such a things. 


Ok, I think we both see a  pretty wide gap separating us here and so I need you to speak to me WITH SCRIPTURE and to show cause why my rendering of it is incorrect and how you see it as 'TIME FOR molding' of clay and not a time of the end of the ages.  

Don't get me wrong as I believe that the Lords Day/Mille is a time of 'molding' so to speak of those who didn't make it.   Thank you Charlie....D