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Defense of the Post Trib Rapture


George

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I also agree that we will go through the tribulatiion.  Who are we to believe that God would have Jesus make a special trip just for us.  If you believe in the pre trib wouldn't that mean that Jesus would come 3 times?

Hi Gods love,

I have been putting a study together on prophecy and there fulfillment leading up to rapture for my wife and I. I just started this yesterday.

One verse that really stuck out was in Luke 21:35

"For it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth" NASB

Jesus is speaking of the tribulation, and He is speaking to believers.

I have heard some say that it will be contained in the middle east, but notice Jesus says everyone who dwells on the face of the earth. This is going to be worldwide with the focus centering on Israel.

Jesus instructs us to pray always that we may have the strength to escape these things which are about to take place, so that we may stand before Him (verse 36)

This dont sound like we will be raptured before these terrible times, but He promises to be with us. I just dont see where when one really looks at what Jesus is saying can still say that we will be raptured pre-trib.

I used to think along those lines, for it is what I had been taught but there is no way I can say that now.

Jesus tells us to be ready, and sadly those who arent such as pre-trib believers, because of the fact they dont expect to go through it, will fall for the lies of anti-Christ.

Notice how Luke 21, Matt 24, and Revelation 6, all interconnect.

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I have been putting a study together on prophecy and there fulfillment leading up to rapture for my wife and I. I just started this yesterday.

One verse that really stuck out was in Luke 21:35

"For it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth" NASB

Jesus is speaking of the tribulation, and He is speaking to believers.

I have heard some say that it will be contained in the middle east, but notice Jesus says everyone who dwells on the face of the earth. This is going to be worldwide with the focus centering on Israel.

Jesusisgod2, that is one great verse, and it says it all. And, i also agree with you that the effects are worldwide. :exclaimation:

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Jesus tells us to be ready, and sadly those who arent such as pre-trib believers, because of the fact they dont expect to go through it, will fall for the lies of anti-Christ.

I am a post-trib believer, and am enjoying this thread very much, but I have to ask you , JesusisGod2, if you don't think that this statement might be a little strong. I'm not trying to start an arguement, but aren't pre-tribbers just as saved as you and I? And though their faith will be quite tested once they learn the hard lesson that there is no "get out of jail free card", won't they still belong to The Lord, and still be covered by His protection in the time of tribulation? If you have studied this more closely than I have (which is very possible) I would be most eager to learn how you've arrived at this conclusion. I respect your posts very much, and I don't mean any harm. I have very close loved ones (pre-trib believers) who are good Christian people, so I have pondered this .Thanks for your attention :exclaimation:

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One verse that really stuck out was in Luke 21:35

"For it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth" NASB

Jesus is speaking of the tribulation, and He is speaking to believers.

I have heard some say that it will be contained in the middle east, but notice Jesus says everyone who dwells on the face of the earth. This is going to be worldwide

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Jesus tells us to be ready, and sadly those who arent such as pre-trib believers, because of the fact they dont expect to go through it, will fall for the lies of anti-Christ.

I am a post-trib believer, and am enjoying this thread very much, but I have to ask you , JesusisGod2, if you don't think that this statement might be a little strong. I'm not trying to start an arguement, but aren't pre-tribbers just as saved as you and I? And though their faith will be quite tested once they learn the hard lesson that there is no "get out of jail free card", won't they still belong to The Lord, and still be covered by His protection in the time of tribulation? If you have studied this more closely than I have (which is very possible) I would be most eager to learn how you've arrived at this conclusion. I respect your posts very much, and I don't mean any harm. I have very close loved ones (pre-trib believers) who are good Christian people, so I have pondered this .Thanks for your attention :exclaimation:

Good morning Hazel,

As far as losing salvation, that I dont know I see good points for both sides of this, so my advise to the believer is to stay alert.

But anyway as I have been doing my studies just recently with my wife and I, there is another couple of verses that "jumped" out at me.

Matt 24:9-10 it says they (enemies of the cross) will deliver us into great tribulation and put some of us to death and we will be hated by all nations -- now I believe all means all, including our good ole USA.

but then because of the persecution notice what happens in verse 10 it says many will be offended in KJV and in the NASB it says many will fall away. because of what they see, I mean people being put to death and hated because of the faith we have.

Now to fall away must mean that at this time they are believers, until they see what believing entails.

Now notice what happens, it says that they betray one another, these are believers who probably werent expecting this to happen to them , somewhere it is written they will think they are doing God a service. This will also weed out those who are of the faith and those who are religous.

This sounds like the believers that arent expecting this to happen to them, they are decieved, which in my opinion pre-trib rapture is a deception from the devil, which will allow for the deception to come from the false prophets.

In Luke 21 it says that not only believers but family and friends will betray us and deliver us up.

This will be apparently because of the false prophets who will be around, again thinking they are doing service to God.

This is a very important exhortation from outr Lord in Luke 21:14 : so make up your minds not to defend yourselves.

We need to make up our minds that no matter what, I'll follow Jesus.

If I have gone overboard, or if you disagree, please let me know, for this is a very hard teaching in the books of Matt and Luke and I could be missing something and probably am.

But The key to the message is make up our minds and be prepared. Jesus said in verse 8 of Luke 21 do not be mislead but also tells us in verse 9 to not be terrified for God will not desert us and He will supply the grace we need when we need it.

God bless!

In Jesus

Kevin

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Good morning Hazel,

As far as losing salvation, that I dont know I see good points for both sides of this, so my advise to the believer is to stay alert.

But anyway as I have been doing my studies just recently with my wife and I, there is another couple of verses that "jumped" out at me.

Matt 24:9-10 it says they (enemies of the cross) will deliver us into great tribulation and put some of us to death and we will be hated by all nations  -- now I believe all means all, including our good ole USA.

but then because of the persecution notice what happens in verse 10 it says many will be offended in KJV and in the NASB it says many will fall away. because of what they see, I mean people being put to death and hated because of the faith we have.

Now to fall away must mean that at this time they are believers, until they see what believing entails.

Now notice what happens, it says that they betray one another, these are believers who probably werent expecting this to happen to them , somewhere it is written they will think they are doing God a service. This will also weed out those who are of the faith and those who are religous.

This sounds like the believers that arent expecting this to happen to them, they are decieved, which in my opinion pre-trib rapture is a deception from the devil, which will allow for the deception to come from the false prophets.

In Luke 21 it says that not only believers but family and friends will betray us and deliver us up.

This will be apparently because of the false prophets who will be around, again thinking they are doing service to God.

This is a very important exhortation from outr Lord in Luke 21:14 : so make up your minds not to defend yourselves.

We need to make up our minds that no matter what, I'll follow Jesus.

If I have gone overboard, or if you disagree, please let me know, for this is a very hard teaching in the books of Matt and Luke and I could be missing something and probably am.

But The key to the message is make up our minds and be prepared. Jesus said in verse 8 of Luke 21 do not be mislead but also tells us in verse 9 to not be terrified for God will not desert us and He will supply the grace we need when we need it.

God bless!

In Jesus

Kevin

:exclaimation::t2: :x: :t2::)

I bet your probably going to go to Judea too, so you can run for the hills, huh? ^_^^_^:help::rofl::rofl:

By the way Kevin :

Did you know that that site you posted in the Prophecy Forum is a pre-trib site?

Don't worry pal, I promise not to turn you in :D:laugh::laugh:

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Thunder,

How are ya?

Jesusisgod2, that is one great verse, and it says it all.
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:exclaimation:  :t2:  :x:  :t2:  :)

I bet your probably going to go to Judea too, so you can run for the hills, huh?  ^_^  ^_^  ^_^  :rofl:  :help:

Well thats a good question, I pray that God gives me a steadfast heart, but if I were one of those who were to flee from Judea to the hills, there would be no shame.

For Jesus instructs those when they see these signs, to do just that, now in order to reconize these signs, one would have to be pretty well versed, wouldnt you think?

By the way Kevin :

Did you know that that site you posted in the Prophecy Forum is a pre-trib site?

Actually this thread is called defense of the post trib-rapture :D:rofl:

Don't worry pal, I promise not to turn you in :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh''''

Ditto!

God bless

In Jesus

Kevin

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  • 3 weeks later...

God's Word definitely presents a post-tribulational return of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is so much Scripture evidence for it, that the only way I can understand why others would seek a pre-trib or mid-trib view, is simply because they listen to the traditions of men, instead of getting into God's Word for theirselves with our Lord's Guidance.

Per the Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 Gospel Chapters, linked with the seven seals of Rev.6, we are given huge indicators of a post-trib return of our Lord Jesus. The understanding that a false messiah will come first, to work "wonders" and "great signs" on earth to deceive, is also essential to recognizing it will be post-trib. And I'll just bet, that most of you, if not all of you on this particular post, realize antichrist is coming before Jesus does, and that we all will be here through it (of course, unless we go through a natural death beforehand, whichever comes first).

Another major Scriptural indicator is how the apostle Paul linked the "last trump" events of 1 Cor.15:52 with the 1 Thess.4:15-17 events, and... with the 7th trumpet sounding of Rev.11:15.

One of the easiest common sense indicators from Scripture though... is that if someone comes working "wonders" and miracles, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men (Rev.13:11>), and we are STILL in our flesh body, then we know that supernatural false one will be the antichrist. When our Lord Jesus returns, on the "last trump" (7th trumpet), that's when those events of all being 'changed' in the "twinkling of an eye" will occur, and not before. Note the word "flesh" in the below warning by our Lord Jesus:

Matt 24:21-22

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(KJV)

Also, the Old Testament prophets gave us more details on the latter day events. It takes time and serious study to recognize them, but there are many verses in the Books of God's Old Testament prophets that have not happened yet to this day. The Zechariah 14 Scripture is one of many Old Testament examples still future to us.

The Ezekiel 13:18-23 Scripture is God's answer to the pre-trib 'fly away' doctrines. He said He hates the false prophets who hunt the souls to make them fly. That whole Ezekiel 13 Chapter is God's rebuke to false teachers among His people that sew coverings over His outstretched arms to His people. He says those false ones have not made up the "gaps", and have not made up the hedge for the 'house of Israel' so they might be ready to make a "stand in the battle in the day of the LORD." (Ezek.13:5).

When the apostle Paul said to put on the whole armour of God, so as to make a "stand" in the "evil day", so as to withstand all the fiery darts of Satan, that's part of where Paul was quoting in Ephesians 6 from. Many leaders among the Churches are not preparing God's people to make that 'stand' for Him and His Son during the 'great tribulation'. They are not filling in the "gaps" many believers lack in The Knowledge of Christ throughout both Old and New Testaments.

Per the Christian author and research scholar Dave McPhearson, the pre-trib any moment 'fly away' "secret rapture" doctrine, never came into Christian history until around the 1830's in Great Britain.

The 1 Thess.5 metaphor of Christ returning as a thief in the night, truly is not upon us. Paul makes it clear there that he had no need to tell them about "the times and the seasons" of our Lord Christ's second coming. Therein manifests a major... difference between our given understanding as compared to the pre-trib believers.

The origin of the pre-trib doctrine in the 1830's originally included the idea that Christ could return "at any moment". That false 'any moment' idea shows total disregard for "the times and the seasons" Paul mentioned. This distinction is very simple. If you are not looking in The Word for those "times and the seasons" of our Lord Christ's return that He and His Apostles and prophets gave, then it means being deceived, and not being able to "wait" for Him. (No man knows the 'hour' or day', but we have been given the events and seasons to watch for by our Lord Jesus).

Have you ever wondered why many of the events that occur with antichrist's coming on the 6th seal, 6th trumpet copies some of the events that occur when our Lord Jesus returns? I'm speaking of events such as earthquakes, the earth trembling, etc. Here's an example...

Rev 6:12-13

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

(KJV)

Have you ever wondered why that old "dragon" (Satan, per Rev.20:2) of Rev.13:11 is also shown as appearing like a lamb, but speaks as the dragon?

Have you ever wondered why that "dragon" (Satan) will come to earth working miracles, raining fire down from heaven, to deceive with? Have you recognized that false one coming to destroy the souls of many "by peace"? (Dan.8). Have you taken the time to check out the original Greek Text meaning of KJV "false Christs" in the below?...

Matt 24:23-26

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ," or "there;" believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert;" go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers;" believe it not.

(KJV)

If you've understood that those above verses are not about the Roman general named Titus, who destroyed much of 69 A.D. Jerusalem and Temple, then who is our Lord Jesus warning us about there, and even saying to "believe it not"?

KJV "false Christs" = 'pseudochristos' in the Greek. (Check its definition out).

The Greek word for "Christ" is 'Christos' (note the Greek 's'). Per the Greek, the phrase "false Christs" is singular tense! The KJV translators made it plural in the KJV Bible, when it is singular in the Greek Manuscripts they used. It is not plural. It's not saying 'many Christs'; it's speaking of one, a particular false Christ who will indeed claim to be our Lord Jesus Christ! And that 'pseudo Christ' will do what according to that Matt.24:24 verse? Work "wonders" and "great signs", a supernatural working that will be so deceptive and powerful, that it could even deceive Christ's "very elect", IF that were possible. It will not be possible to deceive those whom our Lord Christ has given to 'know' "these things" of Matt.24. Those sealed with God's seal will not be deceived, but will be prepared to make a "stand" for Christ and give a Witness for Him.

So it's not only very important to grasp the times of our Lord Jesus' coming, but it's also important to know the 'seasons' which gives why and how the deception upon many deceived brethren will occur! And that's what Paul was covering also in the 1 Thess.5 example, if we pay attention...

1Thes 5:2-4

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety;" then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

(KJV)

When our Lord Jesus does appear, what TYPE OF EVENT will be occuring upon the earth then? It will be when the deceived will say, "PEACE AND SAFETY" (1 Thess.5:3). What? That's right... "Peace and safety"! How can that be a time of tribulation?

It's very simple brothers and sisters. Our Lord Jesus also mentioned that's what the latter days just before His return would be like. It simply requires us to stop and think... about what He said:

Matt 24:6

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

(KJV)

He said to not be troubled when? As long as there are "wars and rumours of wars" the time of His return and the end is not yet. Well then, what could be the opposite of "wars and rumours of wars"? The opposite is... "Peace and safety"! Does that mean all those pseudo-Christian books like Hal Lindsay's 'Late Great Planet Earth', which says the great tribulation will be a time of mass destruction and WWIII is nothing but a hoax? YES, EXACTLY! Their propaganda is nothing but a great big HO-AX! The latter days of tribulation time ("five months" stinging per Rev.9) is how long false messiah and his angels will be here on earth, working the false "Peace and safety". The wars and such today, are to build up a great contrast, just so the majority will be primed and ready for the false messiah, who will give them "Peace and safety", though it will be false, and not the true peace our Lord Jesus will bring on earth.

If the pre-tribbers can't grasp the "times and the seasons" of our Lord Christ's second coming, then why in the world would we want to listen to their deceived authors who 'KEEP' them in their trapped corner?! Only if they truly 'listen' to our Lord's Words and ask Him personally, will they be able to come out of the coming deception by 'a false Christ'.

Guess what other major Bible metaphor Paul also gave in that 1 Thess.5:3 verse? Did you notice he mentioned the "travail with child" analogy, which those who say "Peace and safety" will also suffer? (The following Scripture helps explain that "with child" analogy that applies to the deceived - Isa.26:17-18; Isa.54; Jer.30).

Did our Lord Jesus also cover that "travail with child" analogy for the latter days? YES!...

Luke 21:22-23

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

(KJV)

The "days of vengeance" is the time of Jesus' second coming, as per Isa.61 and Luke 4. Our Lord Jesus read in the temple out of the Book of Isaiah at Isa.61:1-2 to begin His Mission for His first coming (Luke 4). He did not finish reading all of the Isaiah 61:2 verse. He left out the phrase "and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;". That 'day of vengeance' occurs at His second coming, and is the first Day of the millennium, i.e. "the day of The LORD" which the Old Testament prophets and apostle Paul spoke of. That puts this "woe unto them that are with child" past... the time of the tribulation, and at the time of His returning.

The 'woe unto them that are with child' analgoy is not to be understood in the literal sense. It is a spiritual metaphor applied to a spiritual harlot who commits 'spiritual' adultery against her true Husband (Christ), and is found with spiritual child because of false worship when He returns to claim His Bride. God first mentioned the spiritual harlotry Message in The Old Testament, and that is exactly where our Lord Jesus was teaching this 'with child' analogy from (see Ezek.23 about the houses of Israel being named two sister harlots in the false worship sense). Our LORD intends... for us to understand this metaphor!

BECAUSE... the pre-tribbers are not aware of that 'with child' analogy within God's Word, and because they do not heed the "times and the seasons" of Christ's coming, thus they cannot understand that antichrist/Satan himself, will come first, proclaiming to be Christ. I've noticed many who recognize a post-tribulation return of our Lord are very weak in knowing that metaphor, and other Scripture metaphors like it, also. So I hope others new to that, will take the time in Scripture to confirm, and come to understand that Satan wants to be worshipped as God, and our LORD is going to allow that wicked to deceive with "strong delusion" upon as many as will.

Per Old Testament metaphor teaching, we learn that the historical role of "the Assyrian" king is a symbolic role for Satan as God's "rod" of correction (see Isaiah 14; Isaiah 10; Ezek.31:3-16). If you understand what I'm saying with that, then know that metaphor type teaching within God's Word is another 'level' God uses to help us be 'sure' of what will come to pass. All the historical Old Testament events serve as 'blueprints' for how the latter day events will occur. Paul confirmed that also in 1 Cor.10:1-11, as also does Eccl.1:9. This is why Old Testament study for today will really help open up our understanding of The New Testament events given for our times. I won't go into further detail on that 'level', for I would have to read most of God's Word to you'all, when you can perfectly read for yourselves. But that 'level' is another way which I 'personally' know, that Christ's second coming is after the great tribulation, and further, that the great tribulation shortened to "five months" (Rev.9), is not going to be WWIII, nor anything like that. God Himself will come to defeat our enemies, for God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:25-29; Ezek.37-39).

In Summary:

So not only is the 'antichrist' coming before our Lord Jesus Christ does, but that false one is coming to play Christ first, working many "wonders" and "great signs". That's how the majority of the world will "wonder" after that 'beast' (except those with God's seal will not), as the deceived will bow so easily to him, for even deceived believers will have thought that our Lord Jesus had returned, when all along, it will be Satan setup in the role of false messiah. God is allowing Satan to do that, and is using Satan as His 'rod' of correction towards those who refuse to listen to Him, and His Word Which He sent us. It is a shame, because so many brethren believers have over 18 years of education, even in high technology, but they are so Biblically illiterate, and do not recognize the times we're living in.

In Christ,

Davey.

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To Kevin,

About the points you make from the Gospel verses about a certain group of believers being hated, and even delivered up by family and friends. Stay on that track, because you've got it right. Here's more, if you're interested...

If you understand that God's sealing of Rev.7 and Rev.9 upon His means not being deceived into false worship to a false messiah/antichrist, then who will be deceived?

Rev 9:3-5

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

(KJV)

False messiah (Satan) and his 'locust' army (a metaphor for his false priests), will not be allowed to kill anyone who is deceived into worshipping him unknowingly as Christ. Sadly, those with his 'mark' of deception will include the majority of the world, incuding the majority of brethren believers on Jesus Christ. Note he is commanded by God in Rev.9:5 not to kill anyone who does not have God's sealing. So where does that leave our Lord's faithful ones who will know that first one is false, and will not bow to him?

It's better to understand this now, so it won't be as much of a shock when it comes to pass in our future during the tribulation. Because many of our own brethren and family will think false messiah is Christ, they of course will think our Lord is already there with them. But again, that first one coming to work "wonders" and "great signs" our Lord Jesus told us to "believe it not" (Matt.24:23-26). So our deceived brethren, and even those of our own family that will be deceived, will not quite understand why... we will refuse that first one, who will be false.

So the scenario will be like this. Friends and family members that are deceived into believing the "strong delusion" (2 Thess.2), will go to false messiah, his priests and councils, and will say such things as, "Lord, my son, father, mother, etc., studies your Word daily, but doesn't believe you are Jesus. Please, Lord, take him, and make him to understand." That's when false messiah's council and synagogue leaders will deliver you up "to death"..., either literal death, or to Satan's presence directly, since one of his titles also is "Death" (Rev.6:8).

Mark 13:11-12

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

(KJV)

Note per Rev.9:5 that the actual time of stinging by Satan and his locust army will last "five months". That's what the tribulation time has been "shortened" to, by our Lord Jesus for our sake (Matt.24).

So the reason why that time will be "great tribulation", is because it's all about being deceived into worshipping the wrong messiah (Satan). And thus the real hardship shall be upon us, who will refuse to bow to that false one who comes first, who will sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God (2 Thess.2).

Look to the Book of Joel, and realize It is especially about the time of tribulation by Satan and his locust army. The 'locust' army metaphor, was first mentioned in Old Testament Scripture, and the Book of Joel is one of those:

Joel 1:4-6

4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

6 For a nation is come up upon My land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

(KJV)

Recall Rev.9 about that 'locust' army that had teeth like a lion? Here it is, God told us about it here in the Book of Joel. It's all a spiritual metaphor for false ones that will be cause the great tribulation.

Joel 2:25

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, My great army which I sent among you.

(KJV)

The locust army of Rev.9 is God's "great army" which He will send among us. Again, God uses Satan as a correcting rod upon the rebellious, even the rebellious of His people. The major work that locust army is to do, is to cause deception of falling to worship false messiah. Thus that locust army working is not upon us, if we refuse false messiah. We instead, will be turned in by our own who will be deceived. That locust army is a spiritual metaphor. It does not in any way mean literal locust insects devouring the earth in the latter days. Per Rev.9, those locusts have the faces of 'men', which means they are men (Rev.9:7).

The locust metaphor is givien in God's Word to let us know the stages of how Satan and his 'beast' system of controls work. Note Joel 2:25 is giving us the 4 stages of the locust. That is meant for Satan's system of controls. The literal meaning of those stages are...1) the political, 2) the educational, 3) the financial, and 4) the religious. The 'locust' is the last stage, and is the grouping of all world religions into one, in prep for false messiah's coming. Those are the four stages of one-world control that finally ends up in one-world government, and is the "beast" system of Rev.13:1.

Joel 2 also relates to our Lord's warning of being delivered up to concils and synagogues during the tribulation. Peter quoted from Joel 2 on Pentecost Day, when the 'cloven' tongue was revealed to all those present (Acts 2). When the Apostle Peter said "this is that", referring to Joel 2:28-32, it means 'this is an example of' what was foretold in Joel 2 to occur DURING the time of 'great tribulation'. The tribulation of "five months" has not yet started, because that time of "Peace of safety" (1 Thess.5) isn't here yet, and false messiah/antichrist has not arrived yet (they will come on the 6th trumpet). In other words, there is to be a great manifesting DURING the tribulation time, of The Holy Spirit giving Christ's delivered up servants what to speak, and that will begin Satan/false messiah's downfall. Those delivered up will serve as a tip of Christ's Sword Which cuts both ways. God's "two witnesses" will serve to lead in that, but they will be in Jerusalem (Rev.11).

That event of The Holy Spirit speaking through Christ's servants against false messiah and his councils and synagogues, will manifest the TRUE 'cloven' tongue that was spoken at Pentecost. Per the Acts 2 example of that true tongue, EVERYONE present there heard the Apostles speak in each person's 'own' language of birth. If you were from Egypt, you heard the Apostles speak Egyptian. If your were from Rome, you would hear Latin, etc. It was not some babel tongue, but an example of the pure language which all nations spoke prior to the tower of Babel event confusing of the languages (Gen.11).

Because of that future event of Christ's election being delivered up, and God speaking through them against Satan's false one-world system, it will start to cause Satan to mess up his plan of deception, for as written, not even the gainsayer will be able to resist what The Holy Spirit will say at that time (Luke 21:15). That will be when false messiah will mess up, and kill God's 'two witnesses' in Jerusalem, and will let them lay in the public square. Then in three and one half days, they will arise.

In Christ,

Dave.

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