Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[eric]

Thanks for the welcome Eric,

Would like you to peruse the posts I made on the pretrib thread and let me know what you think. I haven't got all the answers but the ones I have I think are according to the Word.

We all "still" see thru a glass darkly, but then face to face". I just hope in "That DAY" He can say of us....."Well done thou good and faithful servants"

In Him,

Frankie boy

PS I will stick around awhile as long as there are those who want to at least hear, even if they do not agree. Loving each other is still the command for for true fellowship. God Bless!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are right about that too. And yes I did read your post on the pre-trib thread and like you I haven't got all the answers yet, but I'm still working on it and I used to be a pretribber, but I gave up on hal lindsey and LaHaye et all and started to check the bible out for myself,because there is no way I can see Christ making two second comings.

have a great day,

eric.

[Guest Frankie boy]

God hasn't appointed us to His wrath, so if God's wrath starts at the Mid point does that still mean the Posttrib is still a Fallacy? Because Posttibbers believe that God will not pore out his wrath on us(His Church)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Trinity]

Alright guys, i really don't see how this convo is a fair debate right now, im being teamed up 4 on 1, Its hard to answer 4 peoples posts and by the time i finally get to write my responce it will be already getting off topic because you guys moved to another thing, I might come back in a week its just getting to hard for one person

[Guest Frankie boy]

I know how you feel Trinity,

But this is a postrib thread, and of course you have more of us to discuss with. But take your time and ponder what has been said. May be, just may be there are some texts you just have not seen in a deeper light.

As I certainly know from experience.....I fought tooth and nail as a pretribber until I read just the Word on the last days. I even questioned the Lord...."Why would You let me believe something if it was not true"? His answer to my heart was...."Do you believe what man says about my Coming or do you believe what My Word says about my Coming"?

Well, that was good enough for me, but still not easy to recant what I had sincerly believed for years, and then someone says that "you are in error, not knowing the Scriptures"

So instead of it seeming us against you and you against us, pray your way through the verses shared.....just you and the Holy Spirit. Do you remember that Jesus said He (the Spirit when He comes) will show you things to come?

Hope to hear back from you, even if you still can't let go....YET.

Blessings in Him,

Frankie boy

[Guest]

Trinity said:

Alright guys, i really don't see how this convo is a fair debate right now, im being teamed up 4 on 1,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Believe me Trinity, you have my sympathy. When I was a pretribber, I never even got into a debate on the issue. I didn't know there even was another position. Once I heard there were other interpretations, I decided to find out for myself. I could have gotten Hal Lindsey books, in fact I did. Even attended his church some, it was in my neighborhood. The main thing I did though, was to start in Genesis, and work through to Revelation, writing down every passage I could recognize as eschatological. I layed them all out on the floor, inserting events where they obviously went, in sequence, and looked for clues on the others, that either made them fit, or made them not fit, as the case may be. It destroyed my faith in pretribism as I went, so I was unsure for a while. As I worked through the problems, it became apparent, that pretribism was an unnatural, forced interpretation, flatly contradicted at times. Post-tribism, was a natural fit for most passages, and there were very few difficulties, all though I still had a lot of questions. Now, almost 20 years later, I still am not sure of posttribism, but I cannot think of another scenario that actually matches scripture.

Last year, I discovered WorthyChat. Upon occasion, this topic comes up. When it does, I am hopelessly outnumbered. "What about this verse", and "what about that verse", lol. The challenges come way faster than they can be responded to. So believe me, I know what you are feeling, every post-tribber does, as we are for the last (nearly) 100 years, a minority position in the western church, though that seems to me to be changing perhaps. Don't know if we will ever be the majority position until the trib happens, lol, but either people are seeing the possibility, or they are coming out of the closet. I have asked many famous apologists for their position, not one has told me pre-trib yet.

Certainly, consider the arguments, if they don't fly for you, God bless you anyway, thanks for being a brave soul here.

BTW guys, I hopped into this thread (what was I thinking?) with the simple idea that I am willing to suffer, and posted some verses about that. I was rereading them, and saw in one of them, something I never saw before?

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial among you, which cometh upon you to prove you, as though a strange thing happened unto you:

13 but insomuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice; that at the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exceeding joy.

Do you see it? Whether Peter is speaking to people then or now, living or dead, we will rejoice when? At the REVELATION of Jesus in His glory. If it were me, I would rejoice at the catching up, if that were before the trib. The natural assumption here is, that we are caught up at His Revelation! Maybe you have seen this verse in that light, but it is a new one to me, thought I'd share it.

Omegaman - Willing to be blessed!

[Guest Frankie boy]

Greetings Omegaman,

Glad to be aboard with a brother who walked the same road as I did with pretrib. I only hope others might come to the conclusion that pretrib is a forced inference of what Scripture plainly teaches. Christ's Coming the Second time is a one time occurence as was His first Advent.

And yes, pretrib does tickle the ears, but it is a fantasy land that men have sincerly believed. But no matter how sincere, we cannot make an untruth, truth. The key for all to ask ourselves, is who is our teacher? The Left Behind prognosticators or the Holy Spirit who inspired the Word?

The Seven Church epistles in the Revelation are as relevent today as when John penned them. They had rebukes and commendations and encourgements. But all end with....."LET HIM (OR HER) WHO HAS EARS TO HEAR, HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT SAITH UNTO THE CHURCHES" and the book finishes with....

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Interesting that He says the whole of the book is to the Churches and if she is removed by ch 4 as pretrib believes, the rest of the book makes no sense. If we are with the Lord before the end, why would we need to be informed of what was happening down here?

And in.....

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

My question to every pretribber is...."Does Jesus come as a thief twice, for the above text is during the pouring out of the bowls of wrath"?

And even if they believe that these are tribulation saints that Jesus is speaking to...are they not on Church ground?

And if they are on Church ground, then the Spirit is in them and they are "In Christ" and He is still coming to fulfill 1 Thess 4 and raise them up at the Last Trump on "the Last Day".

Hope I am not preaching to the choir,lol.

Your brother in Christ,

Frankie boy

[Trinity]

Um... Guys i didn't say that because i needed sympathy or because i couldn't answer questions i can awser your questions easy, but rather on the contrary Im making a big post answering all of your questions at once instead of alittle at a time.

[Guest Frankie boy]

Hi Trin,

Did I denote a touch of pride in your last post? Sympathy? I wasn't handing any out and I don't believe Omegaman was either though he can tell you himself.

We have a delemna here......Two doctrines and only one is true.

We have stated why we believe what we believe with many proof texts. But you are right....maybe too many at once.So I will start the ball rolling again.

Imminence (Christ can come at any moment for the Church) and no prohetic signs nor events need be fulfilled.

Just give me your proof texts for the above professed statement of pretrib dogma. You said you could answer "easy", so say on.

Again I'll say...."This is not us against you./ It is the truth versus the error. And scripture is the umpire, and as sincere as we both are, we both can't be right. If I am wrong, I will recant before all on this board. How about you??

Blessings,

Frankie boy

[Guest]

Frankie boy said:

I wasn't handing any out and I don't believe Omegaman was either though he can tell you himself.

Well, speaking for myself, I was handing out sympathy, but not as in feeling sorry for Trinity, but in the sense of just understanding what it is like to have so many coming at you, there is only so much time, and these posts can take some time.

Quote

We have a delemna here......Two doctrines and only one is true.

Well, I assume that what I believe is true, in as much as I believe that is where the evidence leads. Of course, at least theoretically, both views could be wrong. Neither of these two views can be supported by every verse. I assume we are all on the same page, that the Bible should be understood literally, unless there is compelling reason not to. Therein lies the rub. IF, some verses are meant to be understood outside of there apparent literal meaning, we could all be wrong. For that reason, I consider myself about 95% certain that I have it about right. Of course, I thought the same thing 20 years ago, and I was wrong then.

I am looking forward to Trinity's upcoming response, that should be an interesting read. Thank's for your heart brother. I like the tone of this thread, I haven't been called stupid or Satanic yet.

Omegaman - Willing to be blessed!

[Gerioke]

Pretrib always seemed to be too good to be true for me. Why should our generation be exempt from persecution and tribulation when so many others have suffered and died for their faith.

I guess I take a klingon approach where it would be honorable to die for what I believe

Carry on with your debate