Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[dad2]

 

 

 

Do you even remember what you respond and then I answer before just offering this in return?

 

You said "What is to event"? Are we supposed to know what that means? What is 'to event'? What event? What do mean what is to it? Etc.

 

 

You do know before Christ died and resurrected and it became part of His Gospel, God dealt with the Jews by Temple/Sanctuary/Daily Sacrifice?

 

Did you think Jesus who inspired the bible did not know that would change? The bible deals with reality. If the Jews start the sacrifices again that will be blasphemy because the Lamb already came and died. You do realize that?

 

 

That suddenly ended in 70 A.D.

 

Seriously? No. That ended when the Lamb died for us! Christian tradition has it (and if it is not correct, it might as well be) that the priests ordered the veil to be sewn up again. Remember it was torn apart by God the moment Jesus died? That was when the way to heaven no longer was in that temple! The destruction of that blasphemous place was judgment.

 

 

Prophesied by Christ sitting in front of the Temple itself quoting Daniel in Matthew 24.

 

 

As mentioned that was before the question about the end of the world was asked.

 

 

The Abomination happened, Daily Sacrifice Ended, Desolation is all that is left.

 

That is no more true than the people living in Jerusalem all fled when they saw the abomination set up! That is no more true than saying the final leader of the world, the AntiChrist was there! You are not speaking truth.

 

 

What is Desolation?

 

Well it can refer to a few things. One thing it does not refer to is some altar or temple on the holy mountain today as you claim! There was not a stone for an altar or temple or anything else left just as Jesus said! Another thing you seem to have missed was that it is the abomination that makes things desolate!

 

Daniel 11:31

 

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Edited July 30, 2021 by dad2

[dad2]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Does Revelation 1:3 state the time was near?

Before the end, Revelation lists many things that happen first. Example: 

Revelation 16:17

 

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Revelation 16:18

 

And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

 

Unless that happened then you are misunderstanding what I come quickly means!

[dad2]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Please stop the personal attacks. I do understand the Bible because I read it plainly. It is these highly interpretive posts that are not plain reading of scripture. 

Nothing personal, taking the position that all the impossible things that will happen before the end already happened is delusional. Utterly ridiculous and impossible. Those that take that position can wear the shoes if it fits.

[dad2]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

They are not "man's ages." 

No, what was posted was a list of reasons what you think scripture is saying can't have happened. That is not the same thing as saying what scripture actually teaches hasn't happened. I have tried to point out that these various views being asserted are relatively new views in Christianity and they create the problems to be solved, beginning with the never-ending expectation of future events when they have in fact already happened......  when understood within the context of what scripture states. 

For example, the last days, the end of the ages, was happening in the New Testament era. It's NOT the end of the world, but the end of the ages God set, and that's not the end of "man's ages." 

Whether or not you think they could have occurred or not is irrelevant to the fact scripture states the bowls of wrath, trumpets, vials, etc. would happen quickly because the time was near. Accept the opening verses of Revelation and everything that follows will take on a more scripturally consistent meaning. Accept the opening AND the closing cerses of Revelation and everything in between will take on a more consistent-with-itself meaning and understanding. 

It is the denial of Rev. 1:1-3 where the problem begins. 

The last days did begin in Jesus' day. However not the final seven years in which the events we are talking about all will happen. It is not that I 'think' the AntiChrist was not revealed and placed the abomination that makes desolate in the holy place. It is that this never happened yet. Neither di a quake so big the world has never seen such a thing. Neither did all the towers on earth fall. Neither did the mountains all get flattened. Neither did...etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

[AandW_Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

You said "What is to event"? Are we supposed to know what that means? What is 'to event'? What event? What do mean what is to it? Etc.   

Add <INVENT> to that (I will correct)

I combined what is to Invent while thinking about the Event to this post of yours:

My Apology!

 

  2 hours ago, dad2 said:

No. You do not get to invent what the abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus and Daniel is. Whatever it is, it will stand in that holy place at that end time. The days from when it does till the end are given. That was not in 70ad or whatever. Period.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Did you think Jesus who inspired the bible did not know that would change? The bible deals with reality. If the Jews start the sacrifices again that will be blasphemy because the Lamb already came and died. You do realize that? 

Yeah, He absolutely knew and warned them this would take place in their lifetimes.   He just didn't give out the details that were specific because, like most prophecies, the reader/hearer would deceive ourselves and not be alert for His every Movement.   But they listened and the Judeans were basically all saved hiding in the hills.

Quote

Seriously? No. That ended when the Lamb died for us! Christian tradition has it (and if it is not correct, it might as well be) that the priests ordered the veil to be sewn up again. Remember it was torn apart by God the moment Jesus died? That was when the way to heaven no longer was in that temple! The destruction of that blasphemous place was judgment.

 

Theoretically that is True, but the majority of the Jews and still to this day don't believe it.   But they do believe their Temple does not exist, the Altar is not in use, Daily sacrifice is not taking place.   We're, the Jews, believe they are suffering from the Abomination of Desolation.

Quote

That is no more true than the people living in Jerusalem all fled when they saw the abomination set up! That is no more true than saying the final leader of the world, the AntiChrist was there! You are not speaking truth..

 

The Abomination of Desolation and the Antichrist are not the same entity.   And the effects affect different Tribulations.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Daniel 11:31

 

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

What a beautiful prophecy!

 

And arms shall stand on his part, = Rome's Military

and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, = Rome's Military have invaded the Holy Holies and destroyed all Altars for Sacrifice and the Temple itself.

and shall take away the daily sacrifice, = Altars are Destroyed

and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. = been that way since 70 A.D.

Edited July 31, 2021 by AandW_Rootbeer

[dad2]

20 minutes ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

 

 

Yeah, He absolutely knew and warned them this would take place in their lifetimes.   He just didn't give out the details that were specific because, like most prophecies, the reader/hearer would deceive ourselves and not be alert for His every Movement.   But they listened and the Judeans were basically all saved hiding in the hills.

No, because the bible says that (after they need to flee right away) THEN shall be great Tribulation such as never seen before, no and as will never be seen again. That cannot be some instance where some folks his in the hills in history.

 

 

Theoretically that is True, but the majority of the Jews and still to this don't believe it.   But they do believe their Temple does not exist, the Altar is not in use, Daily sacrifice is hot taking place.   We're suffering form the Abomination of Desolation.

 

It does not matter what unsaved people think, Jews included when it comes to whether the temple is actually there or not, and when it was no longer needed. I do not consider it any abomination that God had the temple and it's blasphemous sacrifices destroyed after He died for us! It was a judgement. When they blasphemously start that daily sacrifice again, God allows the devil to have someone stop it! (AntiChrist) So no one is suffering because there is no temple! We could not possibly have the abomination of desolation now because we know the days that will happen after it is there till the end!

 

 

The Abomination of Desolation and the Antichrist are not the same entity.   And the effects affect different Tribulations.

There is no abomination of desolation or revealed AntiChrist! (yet) They will be here at the same time though. The abomination has to be there is that man of sin sets it up, and it has to be at the same time he is here.

 

And arms shall stand on his part, = Rome's Military

and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, = Rome's Military have invaded the Holy Holies and destroyed all Altars for Sacrifice.

and shall take away the daily sacrifice, = Altars are Destroyed

and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. = been that way since 1970

 

Not sure what to say to such fantasy. If there was some abomination of desolation set up by the AntiChrist in 1970, the world would have ended and Jesus would have returned long before 1980. We are given the years. He also gives it in days and months for those who have trouble understanding.

[AandW_Rootbeer]

17 minutes ago, dad2 said:

 

Yeah, He absolutely knew and warned them this would take place in their lifetimes.   He just didn't give out the details that were specific because, like most prophecies, the reader/hearer would deceive ourselves and not be alert for His every Movement.   But they listened and the Judeans were basically all saved hiding in the hills.

No, because the bible says that (after they need to flee right away) THEN shall be great Tribulation such as never seen before, no and as will never be seen again. That cannot be some instance where some folks his in the hills in history.

 

There is a period between what Jesus said and 70 A.D. Destruction.

Clearly, in Matthew 24, Christ hasn't been Arrested and Charged to be Crucified.   So, it was prophecy from the time before His Death.   People weren't running into the hills after Christ told them this.   That happened 36 years later.

 

 

Theoretically that is True, but the majority of the Jews and still to this don't believe it.   But they do believe their Temple does not exist, the Altar is not in use, Daily sacrifice is hot taking place.   We're suffering form the Abomination of Desolation.

 

It does not matter what unsaved people think, Jews included when it comes to whether the temple is actually there or not, and when it was no longer needed. I do not consider it any abomination that God had the temple and it's blasphemous sacrifices destroyed after He died for us! It was a judgement. When they blasphemously start that daily sacrifice again, God allows the devil to have someone stop it! (AntiChrist) So no one is suffering because there is no temple! We could not possibly have the abomination of desolation now because we know the days that will happen after it is there till the end!

 

It does matter in the fact Jews were Chosen People and this was God's Mercy upon them.   He was Ending the Law they still covet more than God Himself.   The Jews were taught <hard lessons> for their Rebellion throughout their history,   This was no different.   And that is why some Jews who understand why the Desolation happened, because they are now Messianic Jews who can clearly see Daniel's Prophecy fulfilled.

 

The Abomination of Desolation and the Antichrist are not the same entity.   And the effects affect different Tribulations.

There is no abomination of desolation or revealed AntiChrist! (yet) They will be here at the same time though. The abomination has to be there is that man of sin sets it up, and it has to be at the same time he is here.

 

The Abomination is not a demon, a devil, a member of the pits of hell crew in Fallen Spirits.   It's an ACTION that took place and now all that remains is DESOLATION.

[dad2]

46 minutes ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

 

It does matter in the fact Jews were Chosen People and this was God's Mercy upon them.   He was Ending the Law they still covet more than God Himself.   The Jews were taught <hard lessons> for their Rebellion throughout their history,   This was no different.   And that is why some Jews who understand why the Desolation happened, because they are now Messianic Jews who can clearly see Daniel's Prophecy fulfilled.

 

 

The desolation spoken of by Daniel did not happen. After it does happen we can count the days. 

[dad2]

Just now, Josheb said:

If it did happen then I am not the one misunderstanding what quickly means. 

It did happen. 

And I do know what quickly (and near) means. 

Remind us of when these things happened then. It seems to have missed my notice! 

 

Bowl 1: "…harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image" (Revelation 16:2). The first bowl only affects those who have chosen to follow the Antichrist and not those who have chosen to follow God.

Bowl 2: "…it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea" (Revelation 16:3). The second bowl kills the remaining life in the sea. A third of sea life has already been killed by the second trumpet.

Bowl 3: "…into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood" (Revelation 16:4). The third bowl turns all the sources of fresh water into blood. The angel declares that God is just in His judgment because the evil people of the earth have shed the blood of believers; they will now drink that blood.

Bowl 4: "…on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire" (Revelation 16:8). The fourth bowl causes the sun to burn people with its fierce heat and they curse God, but still do not repent and give God glory.

Bowl 5: "… the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness" (Revelation 16:10). The fifth bowl covers the Antichrist's kingdom in darkness. The darkness is so agonizing that the people gnaw their tongues in pain. However, they continue to curse God and not repent.

Bowl 6: "… the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east" (Revelation 16:12). The sixth bowl dries up the Euphrates river preparing a way for Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet to deceive the remaining leaders of the world and prepare for the final battle against Jesus at a place called Armageddon.

Bowl 7: "… into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, 'It is done!'" (Revelation 16:17). The seventh bowl announces the end of the judgments on the world. There will be a great earthquake as the earth has never seen before. Jerusalem will split into three parts and the cities of the nations will fall. Mountains and islands will disappear and giant, hundred-pound hailstones will fall on people. The people curse God, but do not repent. This bowl has interesting parallels to the moment of Jesus' death on the cross. In His final breath He says, "It is finished" (John 19:30) and the earth shakes and the veil in the temple is torn in two (Matthew 27:51).

 

 

As I said, claiming it all is history is delusional.

[dad2]

13 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You have yet to prove that position. 

The fact remains the book of Revelation starts and ends with explicit statements the time of the events described in those pages - including the "final seven years" was near, at hand. There is nothing in the text itself stating the final seven years were not near. In fact the entire book of Revelation mentions "Israel" only three times and only one of those mentions has anything to do with actual people. 

Show me the verse that states, "The final seven years is not near." 

That is a post hoc argument. Look that up if you're not familiar with the term. Saying, "It never happened," subjugates scripture to history, not the other way around. In other words, whether intended or not you've denied the authority of scripture and said secular knowledge of secular history is the measure of God's word. 

And stop bringing in tangential content. You and I were talking about the tribulation. Not the antichrist. Not the abomination of desolation. Not the final seven years. Just the tribulation. You 're doing what commonly happens in discussions of prophecy and eschatology: jumping around from topic to topic to topic ever changing from one to another and never sticking to one matter until that matter is wholly addressed. 

The tribulation. 

Which tribulation? Which trib, because the one in Matthew 24 is said to be one the disciples would experience. They would be handed over to that tribulation. It has, therefore, happened. That is what the text states and regardless of what we think of history the scriptures state what the scriptures state and what Matthew 24 states is the disciples would be handed over to tribulation. Matthew 24 cannot be used to justify a future tribulation. Matthew 24 also precludes a pre-trib rapture because it plainly states the disciples would be handed over to tribulation. Therefore the earlier comment we won't experience the tribulation is either outright false or you'll have to prove your position using another passage of scripture. 

 

I am waiting. 

 

The word "tribulation" occurs only five times in the book of Revelation. All five of them explicitly state the Church will experience the tribulation. Al five of them. Not only do all five mentions say the Church will experience the tribulation but..... everything in the book of Revelation is said to happen quickly because the time was near. 

So..... 

The book of Revelation cannot be used to justify a future tribulation, either and it most definitely can't be used to say Christians will not suffer the tribulation. Therefore the earlier comment we won't experience the tribulation is either outright false or you'll have to prove your position using another passage of scripture. 

 

I am waiting. 

 

Don't call my post delusional.
Don't call my ideas ridiculous. 
Don't attack me. 
Don't tell me I don't understand.
Don't tell me I need the Spirit.
Don't post off-topic. 

 

Just give me scripture plainly stating the tribulation is not something the Christians experience. Just give me the scripture stating the tribulation is in the 21st century. Don't give me scripture interpreted to say what you believe; give me scripture that actually states Christians don't go through the tribulation and it's sometime in our future. 

Or acknowledge no such scripture actually exists. 

I can work with you in either case but no collaboration can happen with a poster who doesn't answer questions asked. 

Bowl 1: "…harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image" (Revelation 16:2). The first bowl only affects those who have chosen to follow the Antichrist and not those who have chosen to follow God.

Bowl 2: "…it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea" (Revelation 16:3). The second bowl kills the remaining life in the sea. A third of sea life has already been killed by the second trumpet.

Bowl 3: "…into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood" (Revelation 16:4). The third bowl turns all the sources of fresh water into blood. The angel declares that God is just in His judgment because the evil people of the earth have shed the blood of believers; they will now drink that blood.

Bowl 4: "…on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire" (Revelation 16:8). The fourth bowl causes the sun to burn people with its fierce heat and they curse God, but still do not repent and give God glory.

Bowl 5: "… the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness" (Revelation 16:10). The fifth bowl covers the Antichrist's kingdom in darkness. The darkness is so agonizing that the people gnaw their tongues in pain. However, they continue to curse God and not repent.

Bowl 6: "… the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east" (Revelation 16:12). The sixth bowl dries up the Euphrates river preparing a way for Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet to deceive the remaining leaders of the world and prepare for the final battle against Jesus at a place called Armageddon.

Bowl 7: "… into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, 'It is done!'" (Revelation 16:17). The seventh bowl announces the end of the judgments on the world. There will be a great earthquake as the earth has never seen before. Jerusalem will split into three parts and the cities of the nations will fall. Mountains and islands will disappear and giant, hundred-pound hailstones will fall on people. The people curse God, but do not repent. This bowl has interesting parallels to the moment of Jesus' death on the cross. In His final breath He says, "It is finished" (John 19:30) and the earth shakes and the veil in the temple is torn in two (Matthew 27:51).

https://www.compellingtruth.org/seven-bowls-Revelation.html

 

Tell us when all this happened? The topic is when God brings Israel back to the land. The bible is very clear it is after the vengeance. If you want to show your claims that it is all history to be true, you must answer this.

Edited July 31, 2021 by dad2