Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[dad2]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

That is an appeal to ridicule.  I can and did prove the claims in that op and if you read the threads you'll see that's true.

I answered that question. 

 

I guess that was not noticed .

Post number? Apparently you think a good fight, but it also needs to be posted.

[dad2]

51 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Quote

Are you suggesting Dispensational Premillennialism does NOT have a long history replete with teachers making predictions about the future that never happen?

Could not care less and do not use such terms anyhow. Jesus matters. The apostles matter. Scripture matters. The rest of it is of no worth unless it agrees. Period.

Quote

 it would appear Dispensational Premillennialism is the "religious mumbo jumbo,"

Either it is Scripture or doctrine of men. Call it what you will, I do not study that stuff, or value it.

 

 

Quote

Matthew 12:33, 35-37
"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit......   The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.  But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.  For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." 

 

If you happen to be trying to misapply that verse to the doctrines of me3n and holding them is respect, sorry that is further proof you do not understand what you read.

 

 

[dad2]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Yes, we do read prophesy differently. When Jesus states the disciples themselves see the things he foretold I believe those words exactly as written. When the New Testament cites an OT prophet and reports that prophet's prophesy was coming to fulfillment right then and there O accept and believe those words exactly as written. When Jesus plainly stated day or hour for the things he was describing in Matthew 24 weren't known but they would happen in "this generation," I accept and believe that prophesy exactly as written. When Jesus tells John at the beginning and the end of his revelation to John that he was coming quickly because the time was then at hand I believe those words exactly as written. And when prophesy is completely silent about another temple being built I do not infer one simply because it fits my eschatology. 

No generation ever saw those things yet. The generation that does start to see them is what is being talked about.

[dad2]

14 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Whether you self-identify with that theology is irrelevant because what you post is in fact Dispensationalism. I was once a Dispensationalist and did not know it. Most of us former dispies have had the same experience. We sat in church and thought what we were hearing was mainstream orthodoxy only to leter discover this is not the case. 

I completely agree. Modern-futurism, or more specifically Dispensational Premillennialism is a doctrine of men. This op is something of your own invention, dad2. How do you not see that? For twenty centuries there was no Israel!!!!! Christian doctrine was formed around that absence and NO ONE in all of Christendom ever considered Israel relevant. That changed in the mid-1800s. It didn't change in 1948 or 1967 or at any time in this century. It changed because of the hermeneutic and resulting theology literally invented by John Darby. 

It is a doctrine of men. 

Not scripture. 

So (once again) I ask you to live by your own metrics and do a little investigation because if the matter is investigated it will unavoidably be discovered what I have posted is correct. Try to find anyone in the 12th century, the 10th century, the 5th century, the second century who taught Israel was relevant. Find that theology and post it here and I will change my posts. Otherwise, I exhort you to take a look and see for yourself. Modern futurism is a doctrine of men and this op is rooted in ideas espoused during the apocalyptic movement of the 19th century. 

Since I am not trying to misapply that verse. Every thread in the Eschatology and Prophesy board in this forum contains posts where posters have added things to Revelation that the book nowhere states. While it is possible for any Christian to err in that regard the adding to and subtracting from Revelation occurs most frequently with the advocates of future-templeism, future-pretribulationalism, future-raptureism, modern-futurism or the various iterations of Dispensational Premillennialism. You and I can turn on the television or the radio or walk into any Christian bookstore in the country and hear/read Dispensationalists taking liberties with the book of Revelation. 

It has happened here in this thread. 

 

 

 

Let's not lose track of the point. the other poster made a claim. He then made a prediction about when that claim would happen. In ten years when that claim does not come true what do you think will happen? Will we read a statement of repentance for teaching falsely? Will we read an "oops" statement whereby it's claimed the "calculations" were off and it's not ten years but twenty (or forty, or eighty)? 

 

 

When I have the time I'll track down the number of my post where I posted the answer to your question: When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and Israel they laid waste to the entire countryside and the lakes and seas of the region became populated with corpses. The Sea of Galilee literally turned red. As the human corpses decayed in the blistering heat they bloated and putrified the water. As a result the fish died. The surface of the sea was covered with rotting corpses of fish and humans. Swarms of flies and birds alternatively descended upon the corpses and flew in the aire and the histories of that era report the swarms were so thick they blotted out the sun. 

Look it up. 

 

 

and fix your html tags again because your posts end up empty if anyone uses the quote feature

 

 

.

No way. Having the sky dark in one little place does not fit what the bible says. Nor does some bad water somewhere. Totally impossible to fit the end time events. You also could not claim the angel called all the birds to the great supper of the Lord. Etc. Not even remotely close.

[dad2]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Sure they did. 

And you're taking liberties with the text. You are the one arguing a doctrine of men. You just got done saying, "Either it is Scripture or doctrine of men," claiming you do not study that stuff or value it but Matthew 23:36 and 24:34 do NOT say, "That generation that does start to see them..." Any objective reading of the text easily proves that to be true. You, dad2, are the one arguing a doctrine of men. 

I assume that's not done intentionally since you have gone on record stating you don't subscribe to the doctrines of men. 
I assume you don't know the origins of this "That generation" interpretation. 
I assume if you did study scripture and did study Christian doctrinal history and did study the origins of modern futurist eschatology that you would indeed stand firmly on scripture. 

 

Look it up. 

 

What have you got to lose? You do understand every single English translation in the world states "This generation," yes? There is a reason the translation is not messed with. There is also a reason why some don't read the "this" to mean this. They claim to read scripture literally but do not. The word "this" means this and..... none of the dozen mentions of this generation in Matthew or Luke are references to future generations! 

 

Look it up. 

 

Classic Dispensationalism began with John Nelson Darby. He literally invented it. It is a doctrine of men, not Scripture plainly read as written. It is religious mumbo jumbo. 

 

Look it up.

No. You were the one tossing 24 dollar phrases and doctrinal words here. Not me. They are religious doctrines of men that were made up.

 

 

Here is the real deal.

Matthew 24:29

 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30

 

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31

 

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:32

 

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Matthew 24:33

 

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Matthew 24:34

 

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

 So when we see those things (bolded to make it easy for you) THEN this generation won't pass till it is all done. You saw Jesus come back? You saw His angels gather believers together? No.

 

[dad2]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

Quote

Matthew 24:29 says otherwise. 

 

 

In verse 27 it says Jesus comes back. Those days were not any days in history. That should be obvious. Not sure what your problem is. Unless perhaps you can remind us when Jesus returned? Is He hiding in the desert?

Edited August 11, 2021 by dad2

[Keras]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

And the other poster has made claims that aren't supported by a plain reading of the scriptures and he has predicted that claim will happen in ten years. You have enough sense to know that's not true. 

So do you know what will happen during the next 10 years? If you don't, you cannot say my prediction is untrue. 

The new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5,  will have a lot of similarity to the ancient Israel of the 12 tribes.  Ezekiel 40 t0 48 is the clear, literal story of it.  BEFORE Jesus Returns.

[dad2]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Jesus did come back.

 

Every eye saw Him return? Good luck with that. He judged the nations already? No deal there either. The mount of Olives was where His feet touched down? Nope. I could go on, but your claim is so patently false there is no need.

[dad2]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, the verses do not actually state what you say they say. They definitely do NOT say the generation that would see those things is the generation that would see those things. All you've done is prove my point: the text does not state what you say it says! The fact is those four verses occur in a larger passage in which Jesus repeatedly told his disciples they would see and hear the things he was describing. No, I did not see Jesus come back but the disciples of the first century did in fact see the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. He came in clouds of heaven and power with great glory and flattened Jerusalem and not a single one of the elect was killed. Jesus told his disciples they would see it and they did and I believe it exactly as written; I don't try to force it to fit a 19th century eschatological doctrine invented by men. 

And just because I know the terms used does not mean what I am saying is incorrect. I have encouraged you to study. Do enemies do that? 

The days when those who would see the things are stated. The things did not happen yet, despite your claim Jesus returned already. All trees were not burned up and all grass was not burned up. None of the bowls of wrath were dumped out yet, and that is plain. All water on earth was not made into blood and undrinkable. Obviously.

[dad2]

Quote

And the existence of Israel is irrelevant. There is no verse that says Israel will be restored in the 21st century and even if Israel were to be restored in our future it would have nothing to do with prophesy fulfilled, nothing to do with soteriology or eschatology and it is not likely to happen within our lifetime

Say what? God's promises to His chosen people is irrelevant? No. His keeping His promises is extremely relevant. No one mentioned any 21 century, yet you keep spamming that strawman argument. Since God is bringing Israel back to the land after the tribulation of course that is prophesy and relevant. Your claim that God is not likely to come in our lifetime is absurd and totally without any basis whatsoever. How would you know? Have you some inside info as to when He is coming that even Jesus while on earth and the angels did not have?

 But since you said He already came why would we ask you?

Edited August 12, 2021 by dad2