Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[Keras]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Isaiah 62 is about the new covenant in Christ. 

Yes, the lords faithful Christian peoples will cut the New Covenant with Jesus when they are living in all of the holy land. 

Isaiah 62:1-2a For Zion’s sake, I shall not keep silent – until her victory shines forth, like the sunrise, her victory like a blazing torch. The nations will see your victory and their rulers your glory.

Isaiah prophesies for the sake of Zion; the holy Land. There will be a great victory, ‘like a blazing torch’ - a CME sunstrike over the attacking enemies. Isaiah 30:25-30 & 66:15-16, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 83, 2 Peter 3:7     The world will see it and be amazed.  Jeremiah 33:6-16

Isaiah 62:2b-5 You will receive a new name, the Lord Himself will give it. You will be like a glorious crown in His hand. No more are you forsaken and your Land desolate. You will be called ‘Hephzibah’ and the Land, ‘Beulah’. For the Lord will delight in you and it will be like a marriage: He will rejoice over you as a bridegroom over his bride.     

  ‘Hephzibah’ = My delight is in her.  ‘Beulah’ = married.   Isaiah 49:18

The Lord’s people, Christian Israelites will be gathered and settled into their heritage, all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Wonderful promises to them of fertility and wealth. They will live in justice, peace and security, as He intended people to be.

Isaiah 62:6-7 Jerusalem, on your walls, I have posted watchmen, they will call out: You that invoke the Name of the Lord, do not rest and give no rest to the Lord until He makes Jerusalem a praise throughout the world.

The Hebrew word for ‘watchmen’, is ‘natzar’, the root word for Nazarene; literally all Christian believers. WE  must not rest or let the Lord forget His people and His Land. Keep praying for our redemption and restoration.  Ezekiel 36:24-28, Isaiah 52:7-9

Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn to never again allow foreigners to take the produce of the Land, but you who give praises to Him will eat the grain and drink the wine, within My sacred courts.

After the great clearance in the Middle East, only His righteous people will be allowed to live there, those who love the Lord and obey Him. Isaiah 66:20-21, Ezekiel 20:38

Isaiah 62:10-11 Pass through the gates – clear a road for My people. Build a highway, remove the rocks and make a signal to guide the people. Proclaim to the ends of the earth, say to the offspring of Zion: See your deliverance comes, His reward is with Him and He will make recompense.

The great gathering of the Lord’s people – the second Exodus, will happen in the same manner as the first Exodus. Leaders [shepherds] will arise to guide the flock, in the spirit of Moses and Elijah. Psalms 107, Jeremiah 3:14-15, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 43:5-7, Micah 4:6, Isaiah 49:9-13,  Isaiah 51:3, Zechariah 8:11-12, Isaiah 40:1-5, Ezekiel 11:17

Isaiah 62:12 They will be called ‘The Holy people, the Redeemed of God’ and Jerusalem will be called ‘sought after, the City no longer forsaken’.

The Lord’s faithful Christian people: living in the Holy Land of Beulah: ALL the area from the Nile to the Euphrates,  as He created them to live, being a ‘light to the nations’ and witnesses to His salvation. They will send out 144,000 missionaries to every people group, to preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Acts 2:39, Jeremiah 31:23-34

Joel 2:23-27 People of Zion, rejoice – your God will recompense you for the years that others have ravaged your Land. You will again have plenty in your own Land. Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I and no other am your God. We will know the Lord is present by His deeds. Just as it was at the Exodus. Must be before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.  

 

[dad2]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes. 

Look it up.

Look 

it

up. 

I'm serious. Look it up. 

Historic Premillennialism is the oldest eschatology to be formalized in Christian history. Amillennialism followed soon after. Postmillennialism took some time to be formally articulated but all three have their roots firmly in scripture and were positions held by various early church fathers one way or another. Idealism developed much later. Dispensational Premillennialism, as I have often and repeatedly pointed out was completely unheard of until the mid-1800s. It was literally invented by a man named John Nelson Darby. There were variations on the common themes of the Church needing restoration and a soon-coming apocalypse in many of the sects that arose during the 1800s. Those sects that arose in that era in Church history is literally called the restoration movement. Among the sects arising in that era were the Brethren sects in which Darby came to ascendance, along with the Church of Christ, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Latter Day Saints. All of these sects and others, some of which fall within the pale of orthodoxy in some ways and others that are completely heretical, held the Church to be corrupt or apostate and in need of restoration (hence the name of the movement) and espeoused the coming of Christ was soon coming.

Look it up. 

 

Of these five eschatological views, Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, Idealism, and Dispensational Premillennialism ONLY DISPENSATIONALISM HOLDS ISRAEL ESCHATOLOGICALLY RELEVANT! 

Look 

it 

up. 

All the other four eschatological views DO NOT believe Israel eschatologically relevant. In other words, four of the five views held in Christendom all agree on this one point and Dispensationalism is the one one that teaches otherwise. This eschatology that was invented in the mid-1800s radically changed Christian thought, doctrine, and practice.... and it did so in complete isagreement with twenty centuries of pre-existing Christianity. Twenty centuries (because most Christians do not believe as Dispensationalists believe. It is a very popular view because it commands books sales and televangelism and radio and cinema; it is a very profitable eschatology but it has never been the mainstream view of Christendom. 

 

Look it up. 

 

You have said you decry "doctrines of men" but what you are posting is a doctrine of men that was invented in the mid-1800s by men. DPism was invented by John Darby. Darby didn't invent just a new eschatology; he invented a new hermeneutic by which the Bible was supposed to be studied. He hermeneutic contained three main positions: 1) the separation of Israel and the Church, 2) a requirement to read scripture literally, and 3) the separation of the rapture from Christ's second coming. He also divided scripture up into "dispensations" (hence the name) instead of covenants. As a consequencescripture was viewed discontinuous, not continuous. These restoration movements were also pietistic and experientialist (I can elaborate if you're not familiar with the terms or their history but these are rooted in Wesley's methodism), and each of these sects had their own views of what the Church should look like based on their view of the New Testament Church. 

 

Look it up. 

 

I've just given you a brief summary of how Dispensationalism and the modern-futurist eschatology developed. These are the facts of history. Look them up. ANYONE can verify what I just posted. Look it up. Dispensational Premillennialism is literally a man-made doctrine. It was literally invented in the mid-1800s by John Nelson Darby and one of the people greatly influenced by Darby's views was Cyrus Scofield. Scofield wrote a study Bible with commentary that was explicitly and intentionally Dispensational in its orientation (bias). It was the first Bible to sell more than a million copies and millions of people bought it. Even non-Christians were buying Scofield's Bible. I have one myself. In the early 1900s a man named Lewis Sperry Chafer founded a seminary specifically for the purpose of teaching Dispensationalism. The name of that seminary is Dallas Theological Seminary and it is still the world's leading seminary of Dispensationalism. Charles Ryrie and John Walvoord were later presidents of this seminary. You may or may not know any of these names but all of them wrote books about future predictions. This is common to Dispensationalism and yet in its 200 years of existence not a single prediction that any of them have ever made has ever come true. 

 

Look it up. 

 

Walvoord - the president of the leading Dispensational seminary - once wrote a book in which he predicted Jesus was going to return in the late 80s. That, of course and as we all know, did not happen. No one said anything. 

 

Look it up. 

 

Many Christian leaders have resisted Dispensationalism. Charles Spurgeon and others were vocal opponents of John Darby and there is a plethora of literature written over the last 200 years critical of Dispensationalism. As a former dispensationalist I was alarmed to find out what I believed was neither historical Christianity, nor prevailing Christianity so I investigated I LOOK UP THESE THINGS. I have personally read John Darby's writings; I didn't just read about Darby from second- and third-hand sources; I read Darby first-hand. I've also read Chafer and Pentecost, and Ryrie, and Walvoord, and Ice, and Vlach and many of the other leading and otherwise notable Dispensationalists. I read them in their own words. I did not just read the critics. I can recommend the best sources for understanding Dispensational Premillennialism in thier own words because I read them. I personally know the current president of DTS, Mark Yarborough (I don't know him well, but I know the man). 

 

So when you trade posts with me you're not trading post with an uninformed poster whose opposition to DPism is not merely ideological. All of the men I have named and all of the Christians posting modern-futurism in this forum and all those I have known personally in life outside the internet and academia are otherwise devout believers in the resurrected Son of God; genuinely redemed and regenerate believers and nothing I ever post with you should ever be construed to say I do not think you a Christian. 

The problem is Dispensational Premillennialism. 

It is a man-made doctrine that was literally invented in the mid-1800s as part of the restoration movement whose emphasis was on apocalypse. 

Look it up. 

 

 

Now the salient point is your incredulous response to the idea Israel is irrelevant to the end times. I am telling you the vast majority does not and has never held Israel to be relevant eschatologically and I am asking you to look that up and verify it. Four-fifths of Christian eschatology is united against DPism in this regard. They each have their various differences but on this point (and a few others) they are completely united against the DP view of Israel, and I am asking you to look that up and verify it for yourself. If you don't want to take an historical approach then look at the polls because polls show that only about a third of all Christians believe in Dispensational Premillennial eschatology. It is not and has never been the prevailing view of the Church. 

Something new does not automatically mean it is wrong. I am not saying it is wrong because it is new. Neither am I saying it is wrong because it is a minority view. I am saying Dispensational Premillennialism is wrong because it is a radical departure from long-held and well-established Christian thought, Christian doctrine, and Christian practice and if Dispensational Premillennialism is correc then twenty centuries of Christianity is wrong! All of Christianity has all always been wrong if Dispensationalism is correct. Along with its new and unique eschatological view and its emphasis on eschatology as the prevailing measure of theology (something else no other theology believes), it teaches a different Theology, a different Christology, a different ecclesiology, a different soteriology. In other words, Dispensationalism teaches different core doctrines. It's not just new; it is radically different than anything Christianity has previously taught and it is irreconcilable with historical Christianity in many ways. 

 

And I am asking you to look it up. 

 

Israel has never been held to be eschatologically relevant until John Darby. There was no Israel in existence and Christian thought, Christian doctrine, and Christian practice developed after the first century with that condition as reality. John Darby was the guy who changed that. 

 

Look it up. 

 

There's not a single verse in the Bible that states Israel will be restored in the 21st century. 

 

Look it up.

 

I have provided an fully scriptural alternative for understanding the definition and identity of "eschatological" Israel and I have provided you with a list of resources from a very diverse set of writers. I did not list just those with whom I agree. I firmly believe that you have the ability to read these diverse sources, examine the many different positions and the many different cases with your Bible in hand and open and decide for yourself. I have asked you to look it up. 

 

Because Dispensationalists are typically not taught other points of view and they are not taught Church history. Internet posts are not the best way to learn (correct) doctrine or history, so I have provided  resources and encouraged examination... 

 

...BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY NEVER HELD ISRAEL TO BE ESCHATOLOGICALLY RELEVANT UNTIL THE MID-1800s. 

 

Look it up. 

 

 

Look 

it 

up

God has always been faithful and honoured His promises. That did not start in the 1800s. God prophesied Israel would turn to Him and be saved in the end long before there was even a New Testament, forget the 1800s. Your idea of 'Christianity' seems flawed. A better word for what you seem to have in mind is churchianity. The same God that made promises to Israel made promises to believers in Jesus. What makes you think He would screw the one and only come through for the other? That is not the God of the bible, that is not Jesus. That may be the religious traditions you thought was Christianity. But that does not matter at all.

[dad2]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

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Dispensational Premillennialism, as I have often and repeatedly pointed out was completely unheard of until the mid-1800s.

People knew there would be a terrible time in the end. They knew Jesus would return to earth in Person and rule one day. They knew we would be caught up in the air to meet Him. They knew if they read Scripture He would bring Israel back to the land and restore them. We would call that belief. That was not new.

 

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  held the Church to be corrupt or apostate and in need of restoration (hence the name of the movement) and espeoused the coming of Christ was soon coming.

They were right that the Catholic church was corrupt. They had no authority to guess the day when He would return. Those dots do not connect.

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 never been the mainstream view of Christendom. 

Belief in Scripture should have been. That just tells us so called mainstream christianity was out to lunch. Somewhat like the Laodocians church was.

 

 

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You have said you decry "doctrines of men" but what you are posting is a doctrine of men

Scripture is actually older than that. I never got lost in the confused babblings of the so called church.

 

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"dispensations" (hence the name) instead of covenants.

 

Call the various ages and periods whatever you like. Either they exist or not.

 

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I've just given you a brief summary of how Dispensationalism and the modern-futurist eschatology developed.

Prophesy became more popular as we got closer to the days! Also, as the bible got out and people did not need to depend on the word of priests, naturally it would be noticed much of the bible was prophesy!

 

 

 

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This is common to Dispensationalism and yet in its 200 years of existence not a single prediction that any of them have ever made has ever come true. 

The bible predicts we will not know the day. If some people claimed they did, don't blame God...or me.

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Look it up. 

 

Walvoord - the president of the leading Dispensational seminary - once wrote a book in which he predicted Jesus was going to return in the late 80s. That, of course and as we all know, did not happen. No one said anything. 

 

 

 

 

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Now the salient point is your incredulous response to the idea Israel is irrelevant to the end times. I am telling you the vast majority does not and has never held Israel to be relevant eschatologically and I am asking you to look that up and verify it.

Which part of I could not care less what religious people thought are you not getting here? They don't want to marry naturally, they don't teach Scripture, they invent mumbo jumbo doctrines and traditions that have no real connection to Scripture...etc.

 

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Four-fifths of Christian eschatology is united against DPism in this regard.

Appeal to popularity. Notice that most or many church outfits also embrace what believers would consider apostasy? For example, some of them promote Sodom like lifestyles as Christian. (etc etc etc)

 

They would be the last people on earth I would ask.

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and if Dispensational Premillennialism is correc then twenty centuries of Christianity is wrong! 

Not belief in the bible and Jesus. Only falsely called churches. Of course they were and are wrong.

 

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There's not a single verse in the Bible that states Israel will be restored in the 21st century. 

Who said 21 century? Who said no to that century either? Since some of the signs have already been seen (not the tribulation or return of Jesus etc as you falsely claimed) then people in tune with His word know that times are late. How late we don't yet know.

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I have provided an fully scriptural alternative for understanding the definition and identity of "eschatological" Israel

I must have missed that. You claimed all the wrath and return of Jesus was history.  Did we miss something else?

 

 

 

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...BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY NEVER HELD ISRAEL TO BE ESCHATOLOGICALLY RELEVANT UNTIL THE MID-1800s. 

Then why did Jesus have them start preaching there? Why did Paul point out that the gospel went first to the Jews? Why did Jesus talk about folks in Israel in the end time that needed to flee etc? Why are there many prophesies about Israel being restored to the land? Anyone in the 1800 who missed all that was blind.

 

 

[dad2]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

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No, the Bible predicted. It predicted no one would know the day or the hour but it would occur in this generation.

When you see these things start then this generation will not pass. Which generation? The generation that saw those things. That could not be until those things happened. 

 

 

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Not to you. You say he has not yet kept His promises. I say He has.

 Yet He has not yet. He has not destroyed all their enemies and returned to rule from Israel. Israel did not repent and weep as for an only son when they saw Messiah! The nations were not judged. You do not get to say this was all done. Not in any sane way.

 

 

 

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We live in the 21st century. You have argued Israel is not yet restored because it does not yet have peace. If Israel is going to have peace in our lifetime.

You inserted 'our lifetime' from out of your magic hat. All we know is that only when God, the Prince of Peace returns will or could they have peace.

 

 

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 where in scripture you see scripture stating our time is THE time?

 

Good question why do you invent that claim? Believers today, though DO see many things lining up that show that this could be near that time. We see the countries named to come against Israel in place for example. We see Israel there as nation ready to be invaded for example. We see trouble in Damascus, and that is where we see in prophesy the city will be wiped out basically. We see a king from the north parts ready to ally with Turkey and those countries prophesied to invade Israel. We see preparations have been made for daily sacrifices to start anytime. We see the UN and how all nations could be gathered against Israel. We see a world racing toward a one world government! We see many churches in outright apostasy. We see preparations for a mark of the beast type system where some mark could be required one day to buy or sell. We do see the gospel preached in much of the world. None of these things were true in Jesus' day! So, no, we do not know exactly when, but the signs of the times are everywhere.

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

 

1. Quote

   Future of what?

Future of when those things He was speaking about happen.

 

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Have you got any scripture stating all the stars and the sun will "go out," all the water turned to blood, and half the population of the earth dead (or are liberties being taken with the text? And have you considered what that would look like if it actually occurred?

1. It would look dark. That would be why they need candles.

Ezekiel 32:7

 

And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

 

Joel 2:10

 

The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

 

Joel 3:15

 

The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

 

Matthew 24:29

 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:25

 

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken

 

And before they all go out, there is a time when they are only partly dark

 

Revelation 8:12

 

And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

 

Revelation 16:3

 

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Revelation 16:4

 

And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

 

Revelation 9:15

 

And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

 

we also see another instance where 1/4 of the population die..

 

Revelation 6:8

 

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

 

That was not history! 

 

[abcdef]

On 8/5/2021 at 12:44 PM, dad2 said:

You are the one that suggested that, not me.

Lk 21:24, 22, "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled,"

==

This is history. Lk 21, is completely fulled. The last prophecies were fulfilled in 1967 when the people of Israel regained control of Jerusalem, ending the times of the gentiles, v 24.  (This ended the 2500 years of the Dan 2 statue and the time of the iron nation at the end of the toes.)

Lk 24, is focused on the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the events surrounding that destruction. Notice that in v 24 it says that they fall by the sword,. They don't use swords anymore when they have modern weapons. 

==

"days of vengeance", What can these days be except the destruction of Jerusalem and the great scattering of the people of Israel into the gentile nations in 70 AD ish?

 What can it be except that Israel would reject Jesus their king and the Pentecost gospel, and the new covenant kingdom? in 37 AD.

This destruction happened only 35 years after Jesus told his apostles about it.

 Rom 11:19-23, Paul says that the natural branches were already broken off at the  time of his writings.

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"all things that are written", Jesus was telling the apostles that the Jerusalem that they knew was going to be destroyed in their lifetimes. He was saying that this terrible thing had to happen to fulfill the scriptures (OT) that were written about it. That is, that the Pentecost new covenant gospel kingdom would be rejected and the people of Israel would be scattered among the gentile nations for a period of time, that has a beginning and end, Dan. 12:7. (It is not 3 1/2 literal years, but a symbolic image of the time spanning from the 70 AD scattering until 1967, the times of the gentiles, v 24)

 

On 8/5/2021 at 12:44 PM, dad2 said:

Some things have a partial fulfilment in history and before that ultimate fulfilment.

A prophecy can cover 1000's of years. A good example is the statue of Dan. 2 which covers 2500 years. 

The statue begins when Jerusalem falls to Babylon and Jerusalem is destroyed. It continues through changes and without any gaps, and ends when the people of Israel are restored to control of the people of Israel.

If you believe that Jerusalem, Israel, is restored, then you may agree that the statue is ended also. (What happens after the statue is completed? The stone strikes.)

We are the far future from when these things were written, we are at the end of the statue.

--

The tribulation scattering of 70 ADish lasted from 70 AD until 1967. This was the trib/trouble period which lasted 1900 years.

During that time, the broken off natural branches suffered from the withdrawal of God's blessings of protection by rejecting Jesus and the new covenant gospel kingdom, beginning in 37 AD when the gentiles were brought into the new covenant kingdom, by faith

 

On 8/5/2021 at 12:44 PM, dad2 said:

 Being brought before rulers for example, and being betrayed by family.

Being betrayed by by family. This was spoken directly to 4 apostles, Mk 13:3. Since it was spoken to them, it could only be fulfilled by them, in their lifetimes.

We suffer, as they did, for the cause of gospel salvation, but the prophecy is specifically about them and their role in the coming events, 35 years away from the prophecy.

 

On 8/5/2021 at 12:44 PM, dad2 said:

However by the time we get to that trigger event of the abomination of desolation being set up,

35-70 AD, No one can prove "absolutely" that the AoD was in the temple, or not in the temple, in the 33 AD - 70 AD time period.

In my opinion,

Titus, who was the "image" of his father, who was Caesar Vespasian, went into the Holy place where only Jews were allowed, and commanded that Caesar be worshiped as god, where his solders did and the Jews were "compelled" to do.

Or that images of Caesar were placed in the Holy Place. This would be the sign to any Jew who entered the temple that the people of Israel would have God's blessings of protection withdrawn, because they were worshiping false gods. The ultimate false god, the beast Caesar, the one who had killed Jesus and millions of others. 

 

On 8/5/2021 at 12:44 PM, dad2 said:

and people needing to flee right away,

There will be no fleeing this time.

In the 70 AD ish time period they did flee. But now there is no place to flee to.

Look at the reality that we are facing right now. Israel and Jerusalem are surrounded by enemies of overwhelming numbers right now.

Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and the rest of the Islamic countries of the planet.

The support and power for Israel is fading, with the free nations of the planet withdrawing from Afghanistan and Iraq. Jerusalem will soon fall. If the U.S. becomes an isolationist nation and stops loving their neighbors, then Jerusalem will fall.

 

On 8/5/2021 at 12:44 PM, dad2 said:

that is the end. In this chapter that is verse 20. There it leaves history behind!

The times of the gentiles is over and Jerusalem is restored. That is the sign of his coming for the resurrection/rapt. Matt 24:29-31. The gathering there is the calling of the people of Israel (5th trumpet, not the 7th), out of the gentile nations where they have been for 1900 years, back to Israel to restore Jerusalem and fulfill prophecy about the ending of the times of the gentiles.

[abcdef]

On 8/5/2021 at 12:50 PM, dad2 said:

No. In the context of prophesy there is a distinct period of a specific length that is set off by a specific event.

I agree.

 

On 8/5/2021 at 12:50 PM, dad2 said:

Whenever we see this time spoken about it is not just routine historical tribulations or tribulations believers will face or have faced in history.

The tribulation/trouble period is a description about the people of Israel from the rejection of the Pentecost new covenant kingdom until Jerusalem is restored, 37 AD until 1967. And not about the Planet, the world of the people of Israel in their relationship with God, not the planet.

 

On 8/5/2021 at 12:50 PM, dad2 said:

God uses certain phrases and terms and events that should clue us in right away if we understand. 

True, but.

The word "tribulation" is just a translation of the word "trouble".

In Matt 24:51-28, there is a time of tribulation/trouble. The 70 AD fall of Jerusalem.

But then after that, there is another time after the initial trouble/trib, where the sun is dimmed, the stars fall, (symbolic imagery) etc., which is a further time of trouble that happens. That time is ending when Israel is called to gather from the gentiles back to Israel to restore Jerusalem. 70 AD - 1967.

The tribulation is a specific period of time, with a beginning and an end.

It began when the natural branches rejected Jesus and the new covenant kingdom, in 37 AD and the gentiles were brought in.

No one knew how long it would last, until, Jerusalem and Israel were restored to the people of Israel in 1967.

Now that that time is ended, we can look behind and see the timelines more clearly.

 

[dad2]

42 minutes ago, abcdef said:

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Lk 21:24, 22, "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled,"

The days, specifically when this happens...

Luke 21:27

 

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:28

 

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh

 

 

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This is history. Lk 21, is completely fulled. The last prophecies were fulfilled in 1967..

Where did the Son of Man hide then? Even the dead will see Him when He comes. Sorry, He has really not come yet.

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Notice that in v 24 it says that they fall by the sword,. They don't use swords anymore when they have modern weapons. 

 

When that time comes we shall see what men have resorted to having to use. 

 

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"days of vengeance", What can these days be except the destruction of Jerusalem and the great scattering of the people of Israel into the gentile nations in 70 AD ish?

When His vengeance comes it will be for all the world and all nations. It also will be impossible to miss or mistake!

Isa 33:

¹ Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

² For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

³ Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

⁴ And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

⁵ For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

 Oh, and notice the heavens will be dissolved also? Try that on for size for 70AD!

42 minutes ago, abcdef said:

 

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 "all things that are written", Jesus was telling the apostles that the Jerusalem that they knew was going to be destroyed in their lifetimes.

Anyone familiar with prophesy would know right away that it would be impossible for all the things that are written have been fulfilled already. 

42 minutes ago, abcdef said:

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If you believe that Jerusalem, Israel, is restored, then you may agree that the statue is ended also. (What happens after the statue is completed? The stone strikes.)

 

Israel is not restored and won't be until after the vengeance when they repent and God restores them.

 

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The tribulation scattering of 70 ADish lasted from 70 AD until 1967. This was the trib/trouble period which lasted 1900 years.

 

Then obviously it had zero to do with the Great Tribulation Jesus was talking about, or the abomination of desolation having been set up. There is only 3 1/2 years after that happens.

 

 

 

 

[abcdef]

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

 Oh, and notice the heavens will be dissolved also? Try that on for size for 70AD!

Anyone familiar with prophesy would know right away that it would be impossible for all the things that are written have been fulfilled already. 

 

It does not say in Matt 24:29-31, 29, that the heavens will be dissolved.

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Matt 24:29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."

After Jerusalem falls in 70 AD, the power of the holy people is scattered in to the gentile nations. Dan. 12:7. 

The power of the holy people is the Word of God that leads to love and salvation. 

In the symbolic imagery the sun is the Law of Moses. The moon is the prophets.

The Prophets are enlightened by the Law, through the Law, because of the Law of Moses. 

The OT scriptures bear witness of Jesus. They are the light that leads to salvation and a covenant relationship with God.

After Jerusalem fell, the lights of the Law and the Prophets was greatly scattered and diminished. So the sun and moon being darkened are images of the loss of the gospel light that leads to God and salvation.

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The stars are the people of Israel who shine from being close to God, prophets, teachers, and great loving souls. They shine in times of darkness, giving guidance to people.

When they fall, they are killed and their lights cease.

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What are the powers of heaven that are shaken?

The powers of heaven are the relationship between God, evil, and their implications toward men.

The powers of heaven were shaken when Jesus died, was resurrected, and the day of Pentecost when the day of salvation began.

The heavens were also shaken and rolled up like a scroll when Jerusalem fell in 70 AD. 

God's blessings and protection over the unbelieving broken branches was withdrawn when they rejected Jesus and the new covenant gospel kingdom.

So the relationship between the broken branches and God was changed, shaken, that is, that the unbelieving broken branches were torn off like the branches of the fig tree, falling away. The green fruit falling to the ground before its time, Rev 6:13.

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Matt 24:29, is symbolic imagery of the condition of the people of Israel in their relationship with God after the 70 AD trouble scattering and the symbols themselves are  not to be taken as literal, material objects, and planetary events.

So the images of Matt 24:29 have already happened 1900 years ago and began ending in 1929 when the 5th trumpet called Israel out of the gentile nations to restore control over Jerusalem ending the times of the gentiles. From one end under the earthly heavens to the other. Acts 2:5.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by abcdef

[dad2]

59 minutes ago, abcdef said:

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It does not say in Matt 24:29-31, 29, that the heavens will be dissolved.

 

 

I did not realize you restricted yourself to one chapter.

Matthew 24:21

 

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22

 

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

This tells us what days are involved. You get that much? We did not see the great tribulation. You could not even say that unless the days in 70AD had been shortened no one would be alive on earth! Lots of flesh is here and has been since 79AD if you notice.

 

 And no you cannot spiritualize the stars falling as meaning Israel. Or the sun and moon as being something else. that is where the rest of the bible comes in handy. Nor can you claim the great tribulation spoken of happened. We are giver the exact time that will last.  That cannot be any old tribulation.

Edited August 14, 2021 by dad2

[abcdef]

15 minutes ago, dad2 said:

I did not realize you restricted yourself to one chapter.

I have referenced from Matt 24, Mk 13, and Luke 21, all parallel passages. Dan 2 and 7. 

All are showing the time before, during, and after the 70 AD destruction and scattering.

The persecution of the 4 apostles, the sign of the coming destruction by the Roman armies which was the worship of Caesar inserted into the temple, and the time after the destruction until the promised restoration of the people of Israel to control of Jerusalem is referred to in the passages from the gospels.

 

15 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Matthew 24:21

 

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

Matthew 24:22

 

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

This tells us what days are involved. You get that much? We did not see the great tribulation. You could not even say that unless the days in 70AD had been shortened no one would be alive on earth! Lots of flesh is here and has been since 79AD if you notice.

 

 And no you cannot spiritualize the stars falling as meaning Israel. Or the sun and moon as being something else. that is where the rest of the bible comes in handy. Nor can you claim the great tribulation spoken of happened. We are giver the exact time that will last.  That cannot be any old tribulation.

Matt 24:21, The great trouble/trib was from 70 AD until 1967 (3 1/2 times). But there was a time of trouble leading up to the scattering into the gentile nations before 70 AD. 

The persecution of the 4 apostles, the surrounding of Jerusalem by the armies of Rome, who were the iron nation in the statue of Dan. 2 and the 4th beast nation of Dan. 7, and the centuries after 70 AD of the people of Israel under the iron claws and teeth of the Roman nation until 1967, is the trouble/tribulation that is shown in the gospel narratives.

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The 3 1/2 times is not 3 1/2 years. It is 70 AD until 1967. The 3 1/2 times is a symbolic image of a time that lasts centuries, during most of the time of the iron in the statue of Dan.2.

The 7 times are the same time period as shown in the statue in Dan. 2, not 7 years. Babylon until the restoration of Jerusalem in 1967.

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The days that are shortened are the time of trouble/trib, yes.

But part of the ending of the time of trouble/trib. was when Hitler was stopped and the extermination of the people of Israel was ended. Had Hitler won, he would have continued his extermination process and Israel would never have been restored to Jerusalem.

There would have not been enough of Israel, the flesh, to remain as a race. They would have disappeared into the gentiles and ceased to be. (This is also the situation we are faced with now, in our time. The scroll is bitter.)

"no flesh saved", The flesh is the natural branches of the people of Israel after the 70 AD destruction, not another genetic group, such as Asian or Native Americans.

Had Hitler not been stopped, he would have ended the children of Jacob on this planet. Then what good is the world, without the salt?

If the time is exactly a literal 3 1/2 years, then the time cannot be shortened and still be 3 1/2 years. But if the 3 1/2 times is a symbolic image of the time from 70 AD until 1967, then it is a time that could be shortened in order to preserve the people of Israel and the keep the promise.

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You are right that this present Jerusalem will soon fall.

But many are mixing up the prophecies about the 70 AD destruction and the one that is coming.

You see, the Matt 24, Mk 13, and Lk 21 passages are primarily centered on the 70 AD destruction, and the one that we should be centered on, in our time, is the one shown in the end of the 2 witnesses, the 6-7th trumpet, the 6-7th vial, and the Rev 20 fire from heaven. These are the ones that show the destruction that will happen in our time, they are not the 70 AD fall and should not be applied to the coming one.