Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[abcdef]

11 hours ago, dad2 said:

When we get specific like a day will be one third less daylight, that is not talking about a person.

Not one person, but persons, as stars. In this case it is talking about the unbelieving broken branches of Israel, Rev 8:12, Matt 24:29.

The sun is the Law of Moses and the moon is the Prophets.

The unbelieving broken branches still have the Law and the Prophets, but lack the complete lights of God because they have rejected Jesus, the new covenant kingdom, and the gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling which came on the day of Pentecost.

So the day shines but is not complete and the moon shines but is not complete. 

The sun and moon are not complete by 1/3. If the broken branches had Jesus and the new covenant kingdom, then the day and the moon shine would be complete, that is 3/3rds, or complete day and night.

The Matt 24:29 verse and the Rev 8:29 are both about the time period which followed the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, the times of the gentile trampling, 70 AD until 1967.

 

11 hours ago, dad2 said:

In Joseph's case it was a dream and not in any way literal.

In Gen 37:9, the family of Jacob/Israel is shown as symbolic images of the sun moon, and stars. These symbolic images are continually used throughout the Bible. When the Bible talks about the stars falling, the symbolic imagery should be considered.

After all, if the LITERAL stars, all the stars such as the sun, should fall to planet earth, the earth would be burned up. But then you may say that they are not the real literal stars, but are symbolic of something else, yes?

 

11 hours ago, dad2 said:

In the case of God telling us in different places that the stars will go dark, and the sun, that is no dream.

Symbolism, not literal.

 

11 hours ago, dad2 said:

You simply can't believe it. The intended subject is the moon and stars and sun, and not people in all these prophesies.

People, yes, the people of Israel. The Revelation, Matt 24, Lk 21, and the rest of the Bible is centered on the people of Israel and events that surround them, NOT the PLANET, most times. 

We read the Bible and understand that it is about the people of Israel.

But then some switch from the centered subject of the people of Israel, to a different center, which is the material planet, because they can not understand the meaning of the images as related to the people of Israel.

It's as if some change horses in the middle of a stream. That is, they change subjects, from the people of Israel to the material planet, in the middle of the passages.

Edited August 15, 2021 by abcdef

[dad2]

55 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

One day perhaps some might understand... 

Not sure what your pics mean inside your head. Hopefully you don't think Jesus already returned or some such.

[abcdef]

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

What does 2000 years have to do with 3 1/2 times (which is explained as also being 1260 days or  42 months?

The 3 1/2 times, the 42 months, and the 1260 days are all symbolic images of the time from 70 AD until 1967.

The Rev has both literal meaning and symbolic images. The idea is to define what is literal and what is symbolism. The problems come when one wishes to switch the meanings from symbolic to literal or literal to symbolic in the middle of the passages.

The numbers and times spoken of in the Revelation are in passages that are symbolic. The switching of the numbers to literal, in the symbolic passages distorts the meaning. 

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

 

Daniel 2:7

 

They answered again and said, Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation of it.

 

That has nothing to do with anything we are talking about. That is a king telling his servants some things.

 

The angel states that it will be 3 1/2 times from the captivity in Babylon until the scattering of the power of Israel

 

I saw nothing in Dan 2 about that? Which angel?

My bad, the angel in Dan. 12:7, says that the 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until 1967.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

That is truly wholly made up, and total speculation. No wonder you 'forgot' to cite which verse an angel said what you claim.

I didn't forget, it was a typo. But then you should have known that.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

So now you think the two witnesses that called down fire and withheld the rain and died in the streets of Jerusalem and were raised from the dead was something that ended in 1967?

The 2 witness, who are the faithful natural branches, returned to Jerusalem and completed the restoration of the city in 1967. The will be killed and resurrected in the very near future.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

Who said that all the main kingdoms of the world rising and falling involved 7 years? That is ridiculous and a strawman argument.

???????

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

So now you toss in 1945 for no apparent reason, and claim the witnesses were here. Not sure how we all could have missed them!

You don't understand that the 2 witnesses are the people of Israel. The 2 witnesses are the symbolic images of the faithful natural branches that fled unto the gentile nations before the 70 AD destruction.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

NOT the great tribulation. That ends when Jesus returns to earth.

The great scattering of Israel into the gentile nations happened between 70 AD and 1967, which is the tribulation.

The trib does not end when Jesus returns for the kingdom. It ends when Jerusalem is restored to the control of the people of Israel, 1967. When the trampling of the gentile nations over the holy city ends, Lk 21:24

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

It also involves a certain number of days and things that are impossible to have already happened anytime before.

Most things have already happened. You are thinking planet earth, when you should be thinking that the symbols are focused on the people of Israel, like the rest of the Bible is. 

The 7th trumpet, the 7th vial, and the Rev 20 fire from heaven have not happened yet, but are about to happen.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

What chapter are you even talking about now? The bible does say in a few places how long the Tribulation is.

3 1/2 times, symbolic days and months in symbolic passages.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

Daniel 12:11

 

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

Revelation 11:2

 

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

Revelation 13:5

 

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

 

False. The angel there is talking about the end of the world.

Dan 12:11, is concerning Antiochus and the cleansing of the temple after the AoD of his time.

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Rev 11:2, is showing the faithful natural branches that fled Jerusalem and Judea before the 70 AD destruction. The 42 months is 70 AD until 1967, a symbolic time period in a symbolic passage.

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Rev 13:5, 42 months is showing the time that the Roman beast nation rules over the people of Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem and the rule of the beast Roman nation ends.

This time period, 42 months, is also shown in the Dan 2 statue as the iron, which is continual without any gaps and lasted centuries, not just 3 1/2 years. 

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

Daniel 12:1

 

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2

 

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:3

 

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Daniel 12:4

 

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:5

 

Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

Daniel 12:6

 

And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

Daniel 12:7

 

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Daniel 12:8

 

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Daniel 12:9

 

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

 

The angel is saying that everything in the last vision of Daniel will be completed by the 70 AD scattering.

Then the book of the 7 seals (v 4) can be opened. Which it was in front of John in the post 70 AD destruction.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

The angel is talking about that well known time that has no parallel as Jesus mentioned, nothing in history is like the Tribulation. You can't say that it already happened!

 Israel, 37 AD, from the rejection of Jesus and the new covenant Pentecost kingdom until Jerusalem was restored, 1967.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

Then we see it is when people rise from the dead, did that happen in 70AD? No possible way.

There was no resurrection at the 70 AD destruction period. I agree.

You are mixing the description of the 70 AD destruction with the one that is about to happen.

70 AD, The AoD, Matt 24, Lk 21, etc.

Here now, soon, the 7th trumpet, the 7th vial, and the Rev 20 fire from heaven.

Both show Jerusalem falling, but are 2 separate events separated by 1900 years,

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

Then we see that when His people are scattered that is the end of all things,

All things?

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

so it could not have been any of the times Christians or Jews were scattered in history.

In 70 AD ish it happened. The faithful natural branches fled Jerusalem and Judea into the wilderness of the gentile nations.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

False. It is possible that if there is a time of great war that people may not be able to use or make modern weapons. Horses and swords will likely be used I would suspect! There is nothing in the bible that says they won't.

Ha, ha. Face it! The Lk 21:24 description is talking about the 70 AD destruction.

This time Jerusalem will fall by guns, bombs, planes, and missiles, not by the sword.

[Justin Adams]

11 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Not sure what your pics mean inside your head. Hopefully you don't think Jesus already returned or some such.

Read Revelation. John was not above mixing reality with metaphor.

[dad2]

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Not one person, but persons, as stars. In this case it is talking about the unbelieving broken branches of Israel, Rev 8:12, Matt 24:29

 

Rev 8 mentions a star that falls to earth and poisons waters. Mat 24:19 talks of things AFTER the son of mam comes. Nothing to do with broken branches of Israel.

 

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The sun is the Law of Moses and the moon is the Prophets.

 

It is actually clear by other places that talk of that time.

 

Revelation 8:12

And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

 

Unless you butcher the meaning of what a night is and a day, and what the context of light shining for a certain time is, what this is saying is that a day will be a third shorter, and that the lights in the sky we see at night also will be similarly affected. Maybe you think the angel was not an angel? A sound was not a sound? A third is not really a third? Ha

 

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The unbelieving broken branches still have the Law and the Prophets, but lack the complete lights of God because they have rejected Jesus, the new covenant kingdom, and the gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling which came on the day of Pentecost.

So the day shines but is not complete and the moon shines but is not complete. 

 

 

No, it shines a third less exactly! This says nothing of the law, or speeding tickets, or your bedroom light. That is talking about specific lights in the sky both in the night and day that shine a specific amount of ti,me less than usual.

 

 

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The sun and moon are not complete by 1/3. If the broken branches had Jesus and the new covenant kingdom, then the day and the moon shine would be complete, that is 3/3rds, or complete day and night.

 

You made up the broken branches thing. One third also does not mean incomplete. It means one out of three! The light shines for those that have Jesus or not! He makes the sun rise on the wicked and the just. What it is saying is that the length of daylight on earth will be different.

 

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The Matt 24:29 verse and the Rev 8:29 are both about the time period which followed the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, the times of the gentile trampling, 70 AD until 1967.

 

Impossible since it clearly denotes that time as a time like no other in history or ever to come later! That time is clocked. The months and years are known. It could not have happened any time in history.

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In Gen 37:9, the family of Jacob/Israel is shown as symbolic images of the sun moon, and stars. These symbolic images are continually used throughout the Bible. When the Bible talks about the stars falling, the symbolic imagery should be considered.

After all, if the LITERAL stars, all the stars such as the sun, should fall to planet earth, the earth would be burned up. But then you may say that they are not the real literal stars, but are symbolic of something else, yes?

 

 

In Genesis that dream was about his brothers and family and represented as stars. There is no secret there. It did not say the day would be shorter or dark. It was not talking about the end time. There are prophesies that talk of 'that day' or 'those days' and they say that it will be dark. Not just spiritually, but physically.

 

 

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People, yes, the people of Israel. The Revelation, Matt 24, Lk 21, and the rest of the Bible is centered on the people of Israel and events that surround them, NOT the PLANET, most times. 

 

 

It involves all the world actually. All nations gather, all people must receive the mark, all the world will worship the AntiChrist, all the waters turned to blood, all the world shakes etc.

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But then some switch from the centered subject of the people of Israel, to a different center, which is the material planet, because they can not understand the meaning of the images as related to the people of Israel.

It's as if some change horses in the middle of a stream. That is, they change subjects, from the people of Israel to the material planet, in the middle of the passages.

 

 

Matthew 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

This means the Tribulation will not just be greater than anything Israel saw, but bigger than anyone saw even before there was an Israel!

[dad2]

23 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Read Revelation. John was not above mixing reality with metaphor.

I read it and your pics were not in there.

[dad2]

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The 3 1/2 times, the 42 months, and the 1260 days are all symbolic images of the time from 70 AD until 1967.

 

 

If so then why is that time also given to us in days and months?

 

 

 

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The numbers and times spoken of in the Revelation are in passages that are symbolic.

 

Using an example from Revelation we see this

 

Revelation 13:7

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations

 

 

So here we have a real man. A man having power over real nations.

This man and another man are mentioned. Another man who cames after the first guy.

 

Revelation 13:13

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

 

That man does wonders like calling fire down. The man is not symbolic. Nor did that man live in 70AD!

 

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My bad, the angel in Dan. 12:7, says that the 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until 1967.

 

No it says nothing like that actually. It specifies WHEN in the next verse!

 

Daniel 12:8

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Daniel 12:9

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

 

 

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The 2 witness, who are the faithful natural branches, returned to Jerusalem and completed the restoration of the city in 1967. The will be killed and resurrected in the very near future.

 

Sorry, that makes no sense. The witnesses appear in the Tribulation and are killed at the end of it. They could not have snuck in Israel in the past some time.

 

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You don't understand that the 2 witnesses are the people of Israel. 

 

 

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

Can you refresh our memory as to when someone called fire out of heaven and devouvered their enemies in 70AD? Ha

 

 

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The trib does not end when Jesus returns for the kingdom.

 

Since He then rules and reigns with us and judges the nations how is it that you claim the world will still be in the Tribulation after He returns?!

 

 

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The 7th trumpet, the 7th vial, and the Rev 20 fire from heaven have not happened yet, but are about to happen.

 

Why pick that particular trumpet as having not happened yet?

 

Refresh our memory when an angel dried up the Euphrates?

 

Revelation 16:12

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

 

 

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3 1/2 times, symbolic days and months in symbolic passages.

 

1260 symbolic days? 42 symbolic months? What is 1260 symbolic of?

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Dan 12:11, is concerning Antiochus and the cleansing of the temple after the AoD of his time.

 

 

In Daniel 12:13 it tells us when the end of the days are actually.

Daniel 12:13

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

 

Are you claiming Daniel no longer was dead or in his lot in 1967? Where is he, in hiding?

 

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Rev 11:2, is showing the faithful natural branches that fled Jerusalem and Judea before the 70 AD destruction. The 42 months is 70 AD until 1967, a symbolic time period in a symbolic passage.

--

 

 

Why is 2000 years 42 months? You made that up.

 

 

 

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This time period, 42 months, is also shown in the Dan 2 statue as the iron, which is continual without any gaps and lasted centuries, not just 3 1/2 years. 

 

There in nothing in Dan 2 that mentions 42 months or any time period. It mentioned Greece and other kingdoms. Sorry no 42 months that really mean (insert whatever you like here)

 

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 Israel, 37 AD, from the rejection of Jesus and the new covenant Pentecost kingdom until Jerusalem was restored, 1967.

 

Jerusalem was not restored. God will do that. When He does you will not see them attacked from their many enemies.

 

 

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Both show Jerusalem falling, but are 2 separate events separated by 1900 years,

 

That you invented whole of cloth.

 

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In 70 AD ish it happened. The faithful natural branches fled Jerusalem and Judea into the wilderness of the gentile nations.

 

No, they did not flee after the final world leader stopped their sacrifices, and the Euphrates was not dried up and Jesus did not return and restore them, and they did not repent, and there was no 2 witnesses doing miracles, and no 144,000 Jews preaching and protected by God, and no AntiChrist, and no mark of the beast, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

 

By the way, are you JW?

[abcdef]

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Rev 8 mentions a star that falls to earth and poisons waters.

Rev 8:6-12, 10-11, The great star that falls from heaven burning as a lamp is the 70 AD city of Jerusalem.

It falls on the 1/3 of the rivers and the fountains. "1/3"

The rivers are the rivers of life and God's blessing through the OT scriptures that flow from the fountain of God, Jer 2:13, 17:13, Rev 21:6.

Because the unbelieving broken branches were broken off for rejecting Jesus and the new covenant kingdom, they suffered from God's withdrawing of blessings in a covenant relationship.

Rev 8:11, The rivers of God's blessings, waters of life, through the OT scriptures, were turned to bitterness over the fall of 70 AD Jerusalem. Why, why, why, would God allow Jerusalem to be destroyed? His people to be scattered into the gentile nations?

Those who believe in Jesus understand, it is because the natural branches rejected Jesus and the new covenant, 37 AD. But the natural unbelieving branches after 70 AD still didn't understand why Jerusalem fell. So they were bitter towards in their hearts towards Jesus and God. They still cling onto the Law of Moses as a means to eternal life and a relationship with God, not seeing a Law and a Spirit that points to Jesus. 

The 1/3 symbolism is again showing that the unbelieving broken branches have only 2/3 of the pure water blessings that flow from the throne of God. They have the Law and the Prophets, but not Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling through the new covenant Pentecost kingdom.

If the unbelieving broken branches would accept the gospel kingdom, then the waters would be whole, 3/3rds, with the Holy Spirit kingdom covenant making then complete in their relationship with God.

The same image as the sun and moon being dimmed by 1/3 in Rev 8:12.

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Mat 24:19 talks of things AFTER the son of mam comes. Nothing to do with broken branches of Israel.

Matt 24:19, 70 AD.

Jesus came in the 67-70 AD ish time period, as God, with the armies of Rome and destroyed the temple and Jerusalem. Jesus/God brought the armies, withdrew His protection over the city, departing as a scroll, and then they completely eliminated the city.

Jesus came at the 70 AD destruction, but it was not a "resurrection coming", as shown in other places.

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

It is actually clear by other places that talk of that time.

 

Revelation 8:12

And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

 

Unless you butcher the meaning of what a night is and a day, and what the context of light shining for a certain time is, what this is saying is that a day will be a third shorter, and that the lights in the sky we see at night also will be similarly affected.

It is symbolism about the broken branches of Israel and their incomplete relationship with God. 

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Maybe you think the angel was not an angel? A sound was not a sound? A third is not really a third? Ha

Angels are spirits. The angel/spirits communicate messages of good and evil. In the case of the 7 seals/7 trumpets story, the angels are generally showing God's judgments on the unbelieving broken natural branches for rejecting the new covenant kingdom.

Sounds mean something. Do you expect to actually hear trumpets blow on planet earth when the trumpets sound? John is seeing the trumpets being blown as images for the beginnings of events that follow. The only way for us to know when the trumpets are blown is by identifying the events that follow the trumpet blowing. 

Since the images are showing the restoration of Jerusalem after the times of the gentile trampling, that point should be identified, then our present time can be calculated.

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

No, it shines a third less exactly! This says nothing of the law, or speeding tickets, or your bedroom light. That is talking about specific lights in the sky both in the night and day that shine a specific amount of ti,me less than usual.

The Revelation is full of symbolism. The trouble comes when you switch from literal to symbolic, or symbolic to literal in the middle of the passages. 

The symbols themselves are not the intended subject, it is what the symbols REPRESENT that are the intended subject.

In the case of the stars in the Bible, clearly, it speaks of real stars and stars that are symbolic. The difference and the  possible similarities need to be considered. 

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

You made up the broken branches thing.

Actually, I got the broken branches thing from Paul, Rom 11:16-24.

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

One third also does not mean incomplete. It means one out of three!

Yes 1/3 is missing, broken off, burned up, does not shine. 1 out of 3, 1/3.

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

The light shines for those that have Jesus or not!

The earthly light shines yes, but not the Spirit light, they are in the darkness to God.

The worldly have no light and live in darkness in the spirit.

The unbelieving broken branches have the Law and the Prophets, 2/3 of the complete gospel message, but not the new covenant Holy Spirit, so they are not complete, 3/3rds. 

Those in the new covenant gift of the Holy Spirit kingdom walk in the complete day of God's light and drink the pure water blessings that flow from the fountain of God to the rivers of life and to His people. 

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

He makes the sun rise on the wicked and the just. What it is saying is that the length of daylight on earth will be different.

Not literal

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Impossible since it clearly denotes that time as a time like no other in history or ever to come later! That time is clocked. The months and years are known. It could not have happened any time in history.

70 AD - 1967. Don't you know the history of the people of Israel during that time?

How they were killed, scattered, and attacked for 1900 years by the iron legs Roman beast nation? There will never be another time like that, over a period of time like that.

Do you think that it was nothing? Maybe you think that there is a gap between 70 AD and 1967, that the prophecies just skipped over the 70 AD - 1967 time period?

No it is there. The great scattering, the trampling of the gentiles over Jerusalem, the tribulation is 70 AD - 1967. The 3 1/2 times is a symbolic image of that time period. 

The restored Jerusalem that you think is coming, is the one that is right in front of right now. Jerusalem restored is now. 54 years now.

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

In Genesis that dream was about his brothers and family and represented as stars. There is no secret there.

Jacob is the sun, his mother the moon, and his 11 brothers the stars. They bowed down to him. This was fulfilled after the family came to Egypt in Joseph's time.

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

It did not say the day would be shorter or dark. It was not talking about the end time.

Gen 37:9, It is showing imagery that should be considered in other images in the Bible and Revelation. Rev 12:1, 4.

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

There are prophesies that talk of 'that day' or 'those days' and they say that it will be dark. Not just spiritually, but physically.

Dark days spiritually, now you are beginning to see. Dark days for the children of Jacob/Israel who have rejected Jesus and the new covenant kingdom.

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

It involves all the world actually. All nations gather, all people must receive the mark, all the world will worship the AntiChrist,

Not the planet, the world/earth that is the people of Israel.

The Antichrist beast nation is Rome. The iron legs/toes of the statue in Dan. 2. The iron beast nation dominates the people of Israel from 63 BC until 1967.

Dan. 2:39, the brass rules all the earth, but Greece didn't rule the planet, only all the earth of the people of Israel.

Acts 2:5, Jews out of every nation under heaven, not the planet, but every nation under "heaven" where Jews were, under the covenant.

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

all the waters turned to blood, all the world shakes etc.

The waters blessings that flow from the throne of God through Israel.

The shaking can be heavenly or earthly. A heavenly shaking may not be felt as an earthquake on planet earth.

The subject should be defined. 

 

44 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Matthew 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

This means the Tribulation will not just be greater than anything Israel saw, but bigger than anyone saw even before there was an Israel!

70 AD - 1967.

Israel, the description of the trouble/tribulation is about the people of Israel and not the planet.

 

 

[dad2]

18 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Rev 8:6-12, 10-11, The great star that falls from heaven burning as a lamp is the 70 AD city of Jerusalem.

It falls on the 1/3 of the rivers and the fountains. "1/3"

The rivers are the rivers of life and God's blessing through the OT scriptures that flow from the fountain of God, Jer 2:13, 17:13, Rev 21:6.

Because the unbelieving broken branches were broken off for rejecting Jesus and the new covenant kingdom, they suffered from God's withdrawing of blessings in a covenant relationship.

Rev 8:11, The rivers of God's blessings, waters of life, through the OT scriptures, were turned to bitterness over the fall of 70 AD Jerusalem. Why, why, why, would God allow Jerusalem to be destroyed? His people to be scattered into the gentile nations?

Those who believe in Jesus understand, it is because the natural branches rejected Jesus and the new covenant, 37 AD. But the natural unbelieving branches after 70 AD still didn't understand why Jerusalem fell. So they were bitter towards in their hearts towards Jesus and God. They still cling onto the Law of Moses as a means to eternal life and a relationship with God, not seeing a Law and a Spirit that points to Jesus. 

The 1/3 symbolism is again showing that the unbelieving broken branches have only 2/3 of the pure water blessings that flow from the throne of God. They have the Law and the Prophets, but not Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling through the new covenant Pentecost kingdom.

If the unbelieving broken branches would accept the gospel kingdom, then the waters would be whole, 3/3rds, with the Holy Spirit kingdom covenant making then complete in their relationship with God.

The same image as the sun and moon being dimmed by 1/3 in Rev 8:12.

 

Matt 24:19, 70 AD.

Jesus came in the 67-70 AD ish time period, as God, with the armies of Rome and destroyed the temple and Jerusalem. Jesus/God brought the armies, withdrew His protection over the city, departing as a scroll, and then they completely eliminated the city.

Jesus came at the 70 AD destruction, but it was not a "resurrection coming", as shown in other places.

 

It is symbolism about the broken branches of Israel and their incomplete relationship with God. 

 

Angels are spirits. The angel/spirits communicate messages of good and evil. In the case of the 7 seals/7 trumpets story, the angels are generally showing God's judgments on the unbelieving broken natural branches for rejecting the new covenant kingdom.

Sounds mean something. Do you expect to actually hear trumpets blow on planet earth when the trumpets sound? John is seeing the trumpets being blown as images for the beginnings of events that follow. The only way for us to know when the trumpets are blown is by identifying the events that follow the trumpet blowing. 

Since the images are showing the restoration of Jerusalem after the times of the gentile trampling, that point should be identified, then our present time can be calculated.

 

The Revelation is full of symbolism. The trouble comes when you switch from literal to symbolic, or symbolic to literal in the middle of the passages. 

The symbols themselves are not the intended subject, it is what the symbols REPRESENT that are the intended subject.

In the case of the stars in the Bible, clearly, it speaks of real stars and stars that are symbolic. The difference and the  possible similarities need to be considered. 

 

Actually, I got the broken branches thing from Paul, Rom 11:16-24.

 

Yes 1/3 is missing, broken off, burned up, does not shine. 1 out of 3, 1/3.

 

The earthly light shines yes, but not the Spirit light, they are in the darkness to God.

The worldly have no light and live in darkness in the spirit.

The unbelieving broken branches have the Law and the Prophets, 2/3 of the complete gospel message, but not the new covenant Holy Spirit, so they are not complete, 3/3rds. 

Those in the new covenant gift of the Holy Spirit kingdom walk in the complete day of God's light and drink the pure water blessings that flow from the fountain of God to the rivers of life and to His people. 

 

Not literal

 

70 AD - 1967. Don't you know the history of the people of Israel during that time?

How they were killed, scattered, and attacked for 1900 years by the iron legs Roman beast nation? There will never be another time like that, over a period of time like that.

Do you think that it was nothing? Maybe you think that there is a gap between 70 AD and 1967, that the prophecies just skipped over the 70 AD - 1967 time period?

No it is there. The great scattering, the trampling of the gentiles over Jerusalem, the tribulation is 70 AD - 1967. The 3 1/2 times is a symbolic image of that time period. 

The restored Jerusalem that you think is coming, is the one that is right in front of right now. Jerusalem restored is now. 54 years now.

 

Jacob is the sun, his mother the moon, and his 11 brothers the stars. They bowed down to him. This was fulfilled after the family came to Egypt in Joseph's time.

 

Gen 37:9, It is showing imagery that should be considered in other images in the Bible and Revelation. Rev 12:1, 4.

 

Dark days spiritually, now you are beginning to see. Dark days for the children of Jacob/Israel who have rejected Jesus and the new covenant kingdom.

 

Not the planet, the world/earth that is the people of Israel.

The Antichrist beast nation is Rome. The iron legs/toes of the statue in Dan. 2. The iron beast nation dominates the people of Israel from 63 BC until 1967.

Dan. 2:39, the brass rules all the earth, but Greece didn't rule the planet, only all the earth of the people of Israel.

Acts 2:5, Jews out of every nation under heaven, not the planet, but every nation under "heaven" where Jews were, under the covenant.

 

The waters blessings that flow from the throne of God through Israel.

The shaking can be heavenly or earthly. A heavenly shaking may not be felt as an earthquake on planet earth.

The subject should be defined. 

 

70 AD - 1967.

Israel, the description of the trouble/tribulation is about the people of Israel and not the planet.

 

 

So I can see where you are coming from. Total disbelief in prophesy as anything other than a bunch of fairy tales with no actual meaning in the real world. Something to be waved away. So where does that come from? Is it a denomination? JW? 

 

When I read that God will shake the heavens and earth and that all towers will fall. That will not be from some shaking in outer space!

Isaiah 30:25

 

And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

Isaiah 30:26

 

Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

 

Nor did the breach get healed in 1967!

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2 hours ago, dad2 said:

If so then why is that time also given to us in days and months?

It is given in days and months to show that the 3 1/2 times, that is the subject of the passage, is the second 3 1/2 times and not the first 3 1/2 times.

That is, that the rule of the (Roman) beast for 42 months Rev 13:5, the time of the 2 witnesses for 42 months Rev 11:3, and the 1260 days of the good woman in the wilderness of the gentile nations, are showing the same time periods in parallel, the second 3 1/2 times, 70 AD until 1967.

The first 3 1/2 times is told to us by the angel in Dan. 12:7, that the time from Babylon until the great scattering into the gentile nations is the first 3 1/2 times. Babylon until Jerusalem falls in 70 AD. That first 3 1/2 times lasted 656 years ish.

The second 3 1/2 times was centuries longer, 1897 yrs ish.

When the seven times are completed, then the time of the statue in Dan.2 will be over, the toes end, and Jerusalem will be restored to Israel. 1967.

The statue of Dan. 2 begins when Jerusalem falls to Babylon.

The statue ends when Jerusalem is restored to the control of the people of Israel.

Which the toes of the statue have now ended and the stone is about to strike.

 

 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

Using an example from Revelation we see this

Revelation 13:7

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations

Not the planet, the earth known to the people of Israel from 70 AD until the restoration of Jerusalem.

 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

So here we have a real man. A man having power over real nations.

This man and another man are mentioned. Another man who cames after the first guy.

Rev 13, The beasts are the nation of Rome and  Caesars, being different forms of Rome, from the Roman Empire into the RCC of today. 63 BC - 1967.

When it refers to the "beast" as "he", it is not saying that it is a man. It is referring to the beast as an entity, a nation that is symbolized as a beast, as a "he". Just like Dan. 7, that shows the nations/countries as beasts also rising up from the seas of the gentile nations. The beast nations change form as they age over centuries.

 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

Revelation 13:13

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

When Titus destroyed Jerusalem, there was plenty of fire falling down from heaven in the sight of men, Israel.

 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

That man does wonders like calling fire down. The man is not symbolic. Nor did that man live in 70AD!

Caesar destroyed many cities by fire. Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, so he was real and alive in 70 AD.

The misunderstanding comes from not understanding that these beasts, nations, span centuries and are not just a few years as some look at them.

They do not have just one ruler, one Caesar, but many over centuries, there are many Antichrists.

See how when we look at Dan. 2 that the iron legs/toes last centuries changing forms.

See Dan. 7, where the 4th beast has a kingdom, that is then divided into 10, then another that devours 3. These are nations that change form over centuries, multiple kingdoms that rise and fall, change, and devour one another, centuries.

See Rev 17, where again the beast nation changes from the time of the 5 heads, to the sixth of John's time, then to the seventh, then the eighth head with the 10 horn nations, Nations over centuries, not 3 1/2 years or 7 years, centuries, or not just one person, one Caesar, there are many Caesars.

 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

No it says nothing like that actually. It specifies WHEN in the next verse!

 

Daniel 12:8

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Daniel 12:9

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 

The time of the end began on the day of Pentecost, when the new covenant kingdom began.

Paul said it was the "last days" in Heb 1:1-2. 

 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

Sorry, that makes no sense. The witnesses appear in the Tribulation and are killed at the end of it.

You are correct, except that the time that the 2 witnesses are outside the city was 70 AD until 1967. The second 3 1/2 times. Not some future time.

The 2 witnesses are the faithful people of Israel who fled into the gentile nations before 70 AD. They have now returned to Jerusalem and are witnessing there that Israel are the people of God and that God's promise to restore Jerusalem and His people is true.

That is why the world hates them and wants to destroy them, because they are witnesses to the true God of the covenants, the God of Mt Sinai, Jesus.

 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

They could not have snuck in Israel in the past some time.

It began mainly after 1945 through 1967.

The 2 witnesses are the people of Israel, not 2 individual persons.

The 2 witnesses are symbols of the people of Israel.

Rev 11:4, Zech 4:3, 12, 14, The olive trees are the people of Israel, through which flows the blessings of God to souls that lead to eternal life, through the scriptures. Israel holds the scriptures.

 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

The fire that is from their mouths is the scriptures of God with judgment on their souls.

 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

 

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

Can you refresh our memory as to when someone called fire out of heaven and devouvered their enemies in 70AD? Ha

 

 

 

Since He then rules and reigns with us and judges the nations how is it that you claim the world will still be in the Tribulation after He returns?!

 

 

 

Why pick that particular trumpet as having not happened yet?

 

Refresh our memory when an angel dried up the Euphrates?

 

Revelation 16:12

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

 

 

 

1260 symbolic days? 42 symbolic months? What is 1260 symbolic of?

 

 

In Daniel 12:13 it tells us when the end of the days are actually.

Daniel 12:13

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

 

Are you claiming Daniel no longer was dead or in his lot in 1967? Where is he, in hiding?

 

 

Why is 2000 years 42 months? You made that up.

 

 

 

 

There in nothing in Dan 2 that mentions 42 months or any time period. It mentioned Greece and other kingdoms. Sorry no 42 months that really mean (insert whatever you like here)

 

 

Jerusalem was not restored. God will do that. When He does you will not see them attacked from their many enemies.

 

 

 

That you invented whole of cloth.

 

 

No, they did not flee after the final world leader stopped their sacrifices, and the Euphrates was not dried up and Jesus did not return and restore them, and they did not repent, and there was no 2 witnesses doing miracles, and no 144,000 Jews preaching and protected by God, and no AntiChrist, and no mark of the beast, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

 

By the way, are you JW?