Christian and Holy Spirit

[Kot]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

The Last Days as reported in the New Testament: 

 

 

Acts 2:14-21
"But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.  For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.  But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:  ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;  even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.  And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;  the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.  And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’"

The last days mentioned by the prophet Joel were happening at Pentecost!  

Romans 13:11-12
"Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.  The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light."

1 Corinthians 10:11
"Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

The ends of the ages had come upon the believers by the time Paul wrote to the Corinthian converts to Christ. 

James 5:1-3
"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you.  Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten.  Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!" 

Not "will have" but just plain old past-tense "have."

Hebrews 1:1-2
"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

God spoke in those last days; He spoke in His Son. 

1 Peter 1:17-21
"If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;  knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,  but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.  For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you  who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." 

Christ appeared in in the last times. 

So we see the scriptures undeniably teach the last days began in the New Testament era and are not something we should e looking forward to beginning in our future.

 

There are other scriptures that tell us the last days began in the time of the New Testament but I have to go work now. Since the last days began in the NT ere and the Holy Spirit begins working in the last days...... the Holy Spirit has already begun its work. 

 

Lots of bad teaching on pneumatology. This op might serve as a wonderful opportunity for learning proper and correct pneumatology especially as it relates to soteriology and eschatology but I hope those other ~ologies are included in discourse. 

John 3: 5

5 Jesus answered, “Believe me when I say that everyone must be born from water and the Spirit. Anyone who is not born from water and the Spirit cannot enter God’s kingdom.

John 14:16-17

6 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper[a] to be with you forever. 17 The Helper is the Spirit of truth. The people of the world cannot accept him, because they don’t see him or know him. But you know him. He lives with you, and he will be in you.

Luke 24: 49

49 Remember that I will send you the one my Father promised. Stay in the city until you are given that power from heaven.”

Act 8: 14-16

14 The apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted the word of God. So they sent Peter and John to the people in Samaria. 15 When Peter and John arrived, they prayed for the Samaritan believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 These people had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come down on any of them. This is why Peter and John prayed. 17 When the two apostles laid their hands on the people, they received the Holy Spirit.

Act 19: 1-9

While Apollos was in the city of Corinth, Paul was visiting some places on his way to Ephesus. In Ephesus he found some other followers of the Lord. 2 He asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

These followers said to him, “We have never even heard of a Holy Spirit!”

3 Paul asked them, “So what kind of baptism did you have?”

They said, “It was the baptism that John taught.”

4 Paul said, “John told people to be baptized to show they wanted to change their lives. He told people to believe in the one who would come after him, and that one is Jesus.”

5 When these followers heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then Paul laid his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came on them. They began speaking different languages and prophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in this group.

[Kot]

1 minute ago, Josheb said:

Thanks for the scriptures but my questions were not answered. Those scriptures people had received the Holy Spirit in the first century and show the Holy Spirit was working within many at that time. So it looks like this post and the post that stated, "In my opinion, I believe that the work of the Holy Spirit will begin in the last days" are in conflict..... unless it is acknowledge the last days began in the first century and the "will" needs to be changed to "has" or just removed entirely and the "begin" changed to "began". 

The work of the Holy Spirit has began in the last days. 

Simple enough change to make and blessedly this forum puts no time limits on editing a post.  

People have different opinion and I have mine which I put it up. I am really appreciating your opinion and views. I have nothing to against it. You support your opinion with Bible text and so I also supporting my opinion and views with Bible text. I can not disagree with yours.  I am happy. God bless. 

Thank you

[Kot]

59 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Well, scripture was definitely posted, but the scriptures posted do NOT "support" the posted opinion. They support what I posted. They do NOT support the opinion, "I believe that the work of the Holy Spirit will begin in the last days". One of the reasons the support is lacking is because the scriptures plainly and unequivocally state the last days began in the first century. That is not my opinion; it is the plain unedited, unaltered statements of scripture. In other words, the op has a huge conflict with other scripture and that is always an indication something is incorrect. 

The last days began in the first century. 

All those scriptures you quoted prove the Holy Spirit was already at work in the first century. 

 

 

 

And I still don't read answers to any of the questions asked. 

 

 

.

This is what I said;

"In my opinion, I believe that the work of the Holy Spirit will begin in the last days. However, before I go ahead and support my view with bible texts, I would like to receive your opinion."

Do you understand the worlds in bold print?

[R. Hartono]

12 hours ago, missmuffet said:

You do not need to be baptized in order to go to heaven. It is not a salvation issue. 

 

12 hours ago, Jayne said:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

Baptism does not save. 

 

 

12 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

Do not confuse the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2) for the power to minister which is given to some

and the Presence of the Holy Spirit which is given to all

 

10 hours ago, Alive said:

Period! We must have a consensus on this! This is vital. Each of us are 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit instantaneously at the moment of this born from above. What I have described is NOT a sequence---it all happens as a transcendant act of God.

I will stop here for now---but it is vitally important that we get these things right.

Its more than just salvation issue because when Holy Spirit baptize people they will be speaking in tongue/Glosolalia because God has His purpose to control our tongues :

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Kot]

On 7/20/2021 at 1:58 PM, Kot said:

People say, for many reasons, that they are Christians. However, to be a full Christian one must Believe in Jesus Christ, be baptized in water, and finally, receive the Holy Spirit (John 3: 5-8). These are the three things that certify one to be called a Christian. Many people believed in Jesus Christian and were baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ but they did not receive the Holy Spirit. 

Now many of you out there can point out as many bible texts to say that we have received the Holy Spirit but I would like to bring a few texts together that support that we have not received the Holy Spirit thus we are yet to be confirmed as Christian. Now, some of you may disagree with me and I accept your opinion but please consider my views and the text that support the views. 

First of all, we must believe that Jesus Christ is our savior who saved us from our sins in our heart ( and they are much text that supports this). After believing in Jesus Christ, one must be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ ( also many text support this which I am not putting it up). Finally, one must receive the Holy Spirit to be called a full Christian ( John 3: 5-8).

 Jesus promised his disciples that he will send to them a helper which is the Holy Spirit (John 14: 16-17) and the people of the world can not receive it, know, and see. The disciples only will receive the Holy Spirit.

Before Jesus went up to heaven he asked his disciples to go to Jerusalem and stay there and they must not go out unless they receive Holy Spirit that he will send to them  (Luke 24: 49). This means after they receive the Holy Spirit they will go out otherwise they will not. 

Jesus sends to them the Holy Spirit (act 33: 3; act 1; 1-4 and act 2_ 1-4). 

From Jerusalem, the apostles heard that some of the people in Samaria believed in Jesus Christ so they sent Peter and John which means the apostles had already received the Holy Spirit thus they went out leaving Jerusalem, (Acts 8: 14).

Peter and John went out and prayed for the Samaritan believers to receive the Holy Spirit. This means that when Holy Spirit first came down the believers in Samaria did not receive the Holy Spirit. 

In verse 16 it says; "These people had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come down on any of them. This is why Peter and John prayed." this means that they heard the good news, they believed in Jesus Christ and they baptized in water but they did not receive the Holy Spirit when the holy spirit came down. 

Acts 8 verse 16 gives the full meaning of John 14 verses 16 to 17 which says people of the world will not know, see and receive the Holy Spirit but only the apostles will. verse 17 says only when the apostles prayed for them (people) did they receive the Holy Spirit. 

Paul did the same things in Ephesus as Peter and John. Paul asks the people that did they receive the Holy Spirit when they believe. The people replied and said they have not heard of the Holy Spirit. Then he asked them what baptism did they receive. They replied to Paul and said, John's baptism, which is the water baptism. This means that they had not received the Holy Spirit when the people heard the good news, believe in Jesus Christ, and Baptize in water. Only when the time the apostles prayed for the people they have received the Holy Spirit.

As indicated in the above scripture, the apostles were given the work of praying for the people so that they could receive the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit was only given to the Apostles and not everyone, (John 14: 16-17). However, when persecution spread (Acts 11: 19), most of the apostles have been killed, (acts 7: 57-60; Acts 8: 1-3).

In Antioch, people were arguing with the apostles ( acts 15: 1-18) and they decided to wrote letters, Acts 15: 19: "19 “So I think we should not make things hard for those who have turned to God from among the non-Jewish people. 20 Instead, we should send a letter telling them only the things they should not do:.". Paul, Peter, John, and other apostle hide and begin to write the letter which we now see in the Bible the letters they wrote which makes up the news testament. 

We do know the apostles died, however, the Good news spread to the world but the work of the Holy Spirit the apostles carry out did not spread.

Now in my opinion today, people in the world who heard the Good news, believe in Jesus Christ, and were baptized in water did not receive the Holy Spirit to fully become Christians and enter the Kingdome of God, (John 3: 5-8). therefore, some still ask questions about Holy Spirit and about becoming Christians. 

In my opinion, I believe that the work of the Holy Spirit will begin in the last days. However, before I go ahead and support my view with bible texts, I would like to receive your opinion.

Before you give your opinion, you may try to give many explaining to convince me or the audience that we have received the Holy Spirit despite the above text and views that I have laid out, but I have gone through all the bible text that you will provide from Geneses to Revelation over and over. I have also used many Christian blogs and google searches to search individual words such as Christina and Holy Spirit over and over and I understanding them. You may give your best explanation from many different angles but I have gone through all of them and I refer to the above views that I have provided.

 Thank you. 

Dear Everyone; 

Than you very much for your views and comments. I really appreciate them.

I am not against anyone but I would love to see everyone to read. Do not think that I am mean or against anyone when reading down. After you read just think about it. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the past before Jesus came down on earth, theses prophecies where there about coming of Jesus such as;.

1.    2 Samuel 3: 13-14:

12 “‘When your life is finished, you will die and be buried with your ancestors. But then I will make one of your own children become the king. 13 He will build a house for my name, and I will make his kingdom strong forever.

2.    Isaiah 16: 5:

5 Then a new king will come.  He will be from David’s family. He will be loyal, loving, and kind. He will be a king who judges fairly. He will do what is right and good.

3.    Isaiah 7: 14

14 But the Lord will still show you this sign: The young woman is pregnant and will give birth to a son. She will name him Immanuel.

Despite the prophecies above, people go again Jesus saying;

a.   Son of carpenter

Matthew 13:55

Isn’t he just the son of the carpenter we know? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

—meaning that he isn’t the king that they expected. Or they did not see the king, instead they held on to what they already know.

b.   People say that we already have the law of Moses and are sons and daughters of Abraham—meaning that they came from God and know everting and they did not need to know about anything new that Jesus is trying to say.

“John 8:37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. But you want to kill me, because you don’t want to accept my teaching.”

c.   People talk in a way that they have already been saved and they are not ready to know about new things which Jesus was trying to say and established.

As a result, many Jews who hold on to their past knowledge including laws and believes killed the sons of God. They find that the teaching of Jesus is something new or strange thus they did not accept

Well, some based their actions on the prophecies such as there is no other God apart from the Lord your God.

The very people who receive laws from God, who are called descendant of God, and followed God go against Jesus.

These people even mistreated Jesus. To them, the teaching of Jesus was going against what they already know, have, heard, and believe.  Thus, they also based their argument on the bible AND Law to mistreated Jesus. (Matthew 12:2-5; Luke 6: 1-2). My points is that; I am not against Sabbath but my point is that people already heard the laws, and also know God and followed God and they did not want to see/know/hear something new/strange. However, the new and strange things that they did not what to hear is the things that will really help them enter Kingdome of God.

This indicated that what they already know binds them from knowing anything that is new thus prevent them to be saved.

The bible says those things that happen in the past will happen again Ecclesiastes 3: 15. Today, people do the same things;

People hold on to what they already know and they begin to argue which then makes them not to accept something new or anything that is strange or anything that they did not know. Their points of argument are always based on Bible.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Kot

[appy]

8 minutes ago, Kot said:

This indicated that what they already know binds them from knowing anything that is new thus prevent them to be saved.

This comes across as saying people  are not saved, and do not have the Holy Spirit unless they adhere to a specific set of behavior which also provides a way to create doubt in the minds of new believers and the young.  "Your not saved unless you do x,y, and z".

None of us can say such about others, for we can't see into another person's heart and know that God disapproves of them or that they are not saved. 

The definition of who Jesus is to an individual is very important, and certainly does mean whether they are saved or not. A different Jesus and gospel message than what is preached in the bible is definitely a bigger problem than if we believe different from you.

The mormon belief is one example. They, too, teach people about baptism and being filled with the holy spirit marks one as a believer. One problem, their jesus is a little god from the planet kolob. By the very instruction to believe, water baptism and receiving the holy spirit, they can call themselves a christian.

[appy]

On 7/19/2021 at 8:58 PM, Kot said:

People say, for many reasons, that they are Christians. However, to be a full Christian

This is like saying a woman is partly pregnant. There is no such thing as a woman being partly pregnant, she either is or she is not, there is no partly pregnant. And the same goes with being a believer. Either a person is a believer, or they are not. One or the other. A person becomes a Christian the moment he or she believes the gospel message and puts his or her faith and trust in Jesus to save them.

In the story of Cornelius, while Peter was delivering the message Cornelius and all those with him needed to hear, the Holy Spirit fell upon them. The Holy Spirit was given to the new believers instantly. They did not need to wait to be water baptized first. No limbo occurred.

In Acts 19 those whom Paul spoke with had only heard John the Baptist's repentance teaching but nothing more until Paul told them that John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

Belief in Christ and the baptism with the Spirit occur simultaneously.

Ephesians 1:13 says very directly that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit upon belief.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Acts 10:44
 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.  The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.  For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

 

[Justin Adams]

On 7/20/2021 at 4:58 AM, Kot said:

In my opinion, I believe that the work of the Holy Spirit will begin in the last days. However, before I go ahead and support my view with bible texts, I would like to receive your opinion.

I have attached a file about the Spirit and His works down thru the ages. Your points are understood, but some are not quite correct.

I suggest you carefully read the attached PDF. Then comment. 

CharismaticRenewalinBritain.pdf

Edited July 21, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Hopefully]

1 hour ago, appy said:

Acts 10:44
 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.  The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.  For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44-48‬ ‭

[Hopefully]

“Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan River. He came to John, wanting John to baptize him. But John tried to stop him. John said, “Why do you come to me to be baptized? I should be baptized by you!” Jesus answered, “Let it be this way for now. We should do whatever God says is right.”
 

Then John agreed. So Jesus was baptized. As soon as he came up out of the water, the sky opened, and he saw God’s Spirit coming down on him like a dove. A voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, the one I love. I am very pleased with him.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:13-17‬ 

“If we say we live in God, we must live the way Jesus lived.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:6‬ ‭

“But the Pharisees and experts in the law refused to accept God’s plan for themselves; they did not let John baptize them.)”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:30‬ ‭

 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Hopefully