Pale Percy Pessimist On America As Sodom.

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, Starise said:

I think it can be dangerous to look at percentages as a way to determine if a nation is ripe for God's judgement. I have been caught up in it myself in looking at Sodom and Gomorrah. Actually a two fer deal on the judgement end. 

I seen it a few posts above. The idea that WHEN THE RULES OF A GOVERNMENT SUPPORT AND CONDONE a behavior that God says is a sin ESPECIALLY a sin called an abomination in the Bible seems to hold more weight than the percentages of the citizenry that would accept or deny the validity of said sin. God judges both nations and individuals. The idea of officially sanctioning a behavior by a set of rules ( as then president Obama did ) is about as close as you can get to having a target on your nation for judgment. To be fair even nations like Israel have large openly homosexual groups and parades. I'm not sure if Israel sanctions such behavior through legislation the way the US has in forcing insurance companies to treat them as married couples with the same benefits among other things.

Many other nations have these same ideas and see it was a way for the world to get out of the dark ages. These blind elitists see themselves as heralding in a new and better society. Danny has two daddies, yeah ok. No It's NOT ok. 

Some men and women have had these urges that many argue are natural. I would agree. In the same way murder and adultery and any other fornication is 'natural' because natural men have sinful tendencies which need to be covered under the blood of Christ and NOT encouraged or society slowly unravels until we have nothing left. Child trafficking is a very real thing. Don't be one of the ones who only listened after your very own grand child or child was taken. These are the types of things that are natural progressions of a fallen society. It affects ALL of us to some degree.

I don't think it has gone unnoticed this is the trend of the entire WORLD right now. Driven on by NWO political forces who are heavily into behavioral modification. These 'agendas' are popping up all over the planet. Admittedly it's worse in some parts of the world than others. Some places like Los Angeles CA are meccas of homosexual fornication. I recently watched a documentary on the condition of Los Angeles. It's a huge mess. Is anyone surprised? The liberals pushing this mush out blame everything else, even us for the state of affairs. These things go hand in hand ,  sex with anyone, drug use and addiction, a younger generation hell bent on destruction of all things we once held as bastions. Even those who consider themselves 'straight' or normal accept the behavior of these others which is the same as condoning it. They most often look the other way with no concern as to how this will affect them and their families into the future. 

All of these things are fast becoming world problems, not just US problems which is why when God begins to seriously judge I think it will be the entire earth as this moves along.

People want nothing to do with God, so He will give them what they wanted. Since God holds everything stable up, when He goes the whole house of cards goes.

The real question is what will the Lord allow US to go through as a result. I would like to think He will protect us but we may be in for a time of persecution where it hasn't happened before. Daniel was rescued and brought to the king's palace, but in reading between the lines what did he loose? And what did he gain by being there? God protected him and led him there but don't forget his enemies tried to get him killed. We won't be judged like the wicked but we are still probably along for the ride and will feel some of the after effects. If you voted for a pro gay pro abortion candidate you will get what you deserve.

 

I hear you and mostly agree, it's probably not even worth writing this for the little nuances where I vary just a bit. Besides, we are on the same page, singing on the same sheet of music, the largest percentage of the time. 

I suppose I could have used terminology like; a couple, a few, a number of, many, most, the majority, etc.; but I started off using a poll, and they use percentages. But anyway, the Lord is the Master mathematician; mathematics is the universal language, and our Bible is framed in it. A percentage is nothing but a relationship to the whole.

With that clarification of my communication style, I'll word things differently:

Genesis 6:5 (KJV) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

I think we can safely assume most, the majority or all men here [over 50%]. Judgment is coming.

Genesis 18:24 (KJV) Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

We are not told how many people were in the five cities and the plains. But based on the kings of those cities, and the armies that those kings employed mentioned elsewhere in the Bible; it had to be tens of thousands of people combined. If that educated guess is true, why did Abraham start off with a tiny percentage of the population, of just fifty? I believe it had to be most to all of the population [expressed 51% - 100%, save Lot and family]. Judgment is coming. 

Luke 17:28 (KJV) Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Does this sound like the world today, in particular the U.S. Who cares anymore, business and the evil agenda as usual. 

Job and the 100-year Nineveh reprieve: Was God about to destroy that city for a few (25%), many (25-50%) or the majority (51+%). Judgment is delayed, but still coming. 

There is so many other examples to use. But my point is, there is a definitely and obvious pattern; there were no moral laws being enforced [the law of the land]. There was a definite number reached in that population [a percentage], before the Lord invoked judgment. 

Just as there is a definite number [a percentage] of people to be saved, after the last one to be saved; the Father will tell the Son to go fetch His bride. Unless there is repentance as a nation, such as Nineveh and their century reprieve, I believe we have reached that number [percentage]. 

With the number of 70% supplied above, supporting a decadent sodomite lifestyle, not to mention the number or percentage of abortion supporters [law of the land]. Kicking God out of the government, removing prayer and the Ten Commandments from schools and public areas, and much more. Judgment is coming.

Apples to apples??

[Starise]

On 9/27/2021 at 5:40 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I hear you and mostly agree, it's probably not even worth writing this for the little nuances where I vary just a bit. Besides, we are on the same page, singing on the same sheet of music, the largest percentage of the time. 

I suppose I could have used terminology like; a couple, a few, a number of, many, most, the majority, etc.; but I started off using a poll, and they use percentages. But anyway, the Lord is the Master mathematician; mathematics is the universal language, and our Bible is framed in it. A percentage is nothing but a relationship to the whole.

With that clarification of my communication style, I'll word things differently:

Genesis 6:5 (KJV) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

I think we can safely assume most, the majority or all men here [over 50%]. Judgment is coming.

Genesis 18:24 (KJV) Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

We are not told how many people were in the five cities and the plains. But based on the kings of those cities, and the armies that those kings employed mentioned elsewhere in the Bible; it had to be tens of thousands of people combined. If that educated guess is true, why did Abraham start off with a tiny percentage of the population, of just fifty? I believe it had to be most to all of the population [expressed 51% - 100%, save Lot and family]. Judgment is coming. 

Luke 17:28 (KJV) Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Does this sound like the world today, in particular the U.S. Who cares anymore, business and the evil agenda as usual. 

Job and the 100-year Nineveh reprieve: Was God about to destroy that city for a few (25%), many (25-50%) or the majority (51+%). Judgment is delayed, but still coming. 

There is so many other examples to use. But my point is, there is a definitely and obvious pattern; there were no moral laws being enforced [the law of the land]. There was a definite number reached in that population [a percentage], before the Lord invoked judgment. 

Just as there is a definite number [a percentage] of people to be saved, after the last one to be saved; the Father will tell the Son to go fetch His bride. Unless there is repentance as a nation, such as Nineveh and their century reprieve, I believe we have reached that number [percentage]. 

With the number of 70% supplied above, supporting a decadent sodomite lifestyle, not to mention the number or percentage of abortion supporters [law of the land]. Kicking God out of the government, removing prayer and the Ten Commandments from schools and public areas, and much more. Judgment is coming.

Apples to apples??

Hi Dennis. I apologize if it appeared I was picking on your way of looking at things as percentages. I wasn't really directing my statement in a derogatory way towards you or those methods. I was thinking out loud that it might not be the best way to look at it. Since I don't know exactly when the Lord says enough is enough I can only conjecture same as you. Some societies have gone on for several generations or 400 years or more before God finally decided to drop the gavel. 

I can only say with surety that God is merciful and very patient with us all. He probably lets these things go on for much longer than most think they should. 

I am surprised He hasn't moved in a bigger way in the USA already.Maybe the judgements seem less severe because I haven't been in a flooded or drought strike  rainless area yet.

I'm sure some will argue these are all simply odd weather patterns that have nothing to do with judgement. I believe judgement is whatever it takes to make people wake up and realize how far we've slidden.  Economic disaster,floods,fires,drought, earthquakes,wars.....you name it. I think it all qualifies as judgment.

[WilliamL]

On 9/26/2021 at 1:52 PM, other one said:

On 9/26/2021 at 1:31 PM, WilliamL said:

Actually, there was one: Lot. (2 Pet. 2:7)

Sodom and Gomorrah in those days probably did not have many people. So, percentage-wise, the situation for the U.S. as a whole might not be much different.

It's hard for me to consider Lot righteous when he got drunk and got both his daughters pregnant. I have always considered Lots relation to Abraham the reason they were removed.

Did you not read the passage cited?

2 Peter 2:7 ...and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—

Do you have a higher standard for righteousness than either God or Peter?

 

[other one]

28 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Did you not read the passage cited?

2 Peter 2:7 ...and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—

Do you have a higher standard for righteousness than either God or Peter?

 

I guess he became unrighteous after they left when he got drunk and got his daughters pregnant.  Can a person be righteous and offer his virgin daughters to a mob? I guess I do have a high standard.  Maybe the meaning of the word is where we might differ.

[Anne2]

On 9/26/2021 at 12:52 PM, other one said:

It's hard for me to consider Lot righteous when he got drunk and got both his daughters pregnant. I have always considered Lots relation to Abraham the reason they were removed.

 

2Pe 2:7  And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8  (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

[choir loft]

On 9/25/2021 at 10:29 PM, Dennis1209 said:

If God does not judge America soon, He owes an apology to Sodom & Gomorrah.

Paraphrased from memory ~ Ruth Graham

The quote has been mistakenly attributed to Mrs. Graham.  

The original quote is as follows:

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE SHANGHAI HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

The quote was part of a letter composed by a missionary who lived in the Chinese city in the early 1930's.  At the time the city was a sewer of human debauchery and wickedness.   In 1937 the Imperial Japanese Army invaded the area, burned the town to the ground, raped its women and killed most of its adult population.  Everything   one might consider good, according to current American standards of debauchery, was destroyed.  

Shanghai sits astride the Yangtze River.  Further upstream is the city of Nanking, the pre-war capital of China.  The Japanese continued their march up river and savagely murdered over 250,000 citizens of Nanking in one of history's greatest atrocities.  Most Americans have no idea what happened in those two cities.   Fewer still care.

Ruth Graham was raised in China by her missionary parents in a city approximately 300 miles from Shanghai.  She left the area at the age of 13 and continued her education in Korea.  It's quite possible she knew of the wickedness of the coastal city, but certainly wasn't in the habit of posting personal impressions of Chinese society to missionary headquarters in San Francisco.

In my personal opinion, paraphrase of the quote is justifiably applied to America.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

Indeed, many scholars and pundits believe, as I do, that divine judgment is already upon us.  

Is God blessing America any more?   He is not.  Read the newspapers and watch TV news and you'll see graphic images of an empire in rapid decline.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[choir loft]

On 9/30/2021 at 3:43 PM, WilliamL said:

Did you not read the passage cited?

2 Peter 2:7 ...and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—

Do you have a higher standard for righteousness than either God or Peter?

 

The 'standard of righteousness' applicable to America of the 21st century is the same as the one dictated by God - the LAW of Moses.

Currently the American Protestant church is in denial of Mosaic LAW in particular and nearly the entire Old Testament in general.  When a nation as well as its religious folk deny God's LAW, it isn't long before wrath visits.  Indeed it is upon us NOW.  

Indeed, many legitimate scholars, religious leaders and political leaders of the late 20th century looked upon the decline of American society and bemoaned THE FACT we crossed the Rubicon long before 911.   America has crossed the line, so to speak, and in our hubris has invited divine wrath upon us.  

Look at any TV news story or newspaper review. God is NOT blessing America any more.  Our land is literally burning to the ground.  Our cities are a war zone.  Our economy is tottering on the edge of disaster from one crisis to another.  Our political leadership is a joke.  The Democrats and Republicans are two heads of the same snake.  We've lost the respect of the global community.  Our military is deeply involved in AT LEAST eight foreign wars (more like 12), most of which are shadow wars not readily acknowledged by our myopic media.  

A greater war, which Americans will be asked to support, is being arranged for 2023 even as we argue the finer points of American debauchery in the summer of 2022.  Watch and learn, pilgrim.

American leadership is stuck in a quagmire of partisan politics.  Washington gridlock is the rule of the day, not the benefit of the American people.  Our culture is wallowing in a trend of decadence unparalleled in human history.  We have denied God and turned our collective backs upon Him and His LAW.  Insanity corruption and political games rule the day.  We don't even seem able to define what a woman is any more.  How bad does it have to get before we realize we're in serious trouble? 

(It's been said that if a man wants to go crazy he should move to Washington, DC where it will not be noticed. - Mike Lofgren)

Wrapping one's mind in the tattered flag of a nation long dead and gone isn't efficacious for the wicked now.  God's hand is against us and will not cease its hideous work until His wrath is sated.  The Biblical principle of the acts of an angry God are ignored by church leaders who are only concerned for their own well being and salaries.  God IS merciful to individuals.  God is NOT merciful to nations that hate Him.

May He be merciful unto those who have surrendered their lives and hearts to Him....alas there are too few.  

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[WilliamL]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:39 PM, choir loft said:

The 'standard of righteousness' applicable to America of the 21st century is the same as the one dictated by God - the LAW of Moses.

No, the 'standard of righteousness' applicable to America of the 21st century is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is what caused America to prosper, and its rejection by the large majority of this land is what is causing America to fall.
 

[choir loft]

On 8/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, WilliamL said:

No, the 'standard of righteousness' applicable to America of the 21st century is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is what caused America to prosper, and its rejection by the large majority of this land is what is causing America to fall.
 

"The initial success of the United States was largely accidental. A rich empty continent was exploited by rapacious Europeans who made slaves of Africans and corpses of Indians in the process." - GORE VIDAL

The idea that God has blessed America because of a few righteous persons is ludicrous and largely based upon political propaganda.   The nation was built on the graves of Native Americans from whom we stole the land.   It was initially established on the backs of blacks, native american and asian slaves.  That, sir, is established fact and history.

The Civil War was, according to President Lincoln, a JUDGMENT upon us for the SIN of slavery.

God blessed American participation in the European wars of the 20th century so as to prevent the expansion of German totalitarianism .  US involvement in the Pacific war in WWII was a judgment of God upon the inhuman abuse forced upon the Pacific rim by Imperial Japan.

God is no longer blessing America.  Ask yourself why. 

America is not as noble a nation as we suppose ourselves to be.  We are NOT the almighty good guys.

"Christ does not vindicate a race or a nation.  It is the sovereignty of God which is vindicated." - Reinhold Niebuhr

Jesus did not come to establish a political kingdom upon the earth in His day.  Indeed He refused every invitation to do so.  He denied it most vehemently.  America is NOT God's gift to the world - Jesus is.

"Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as His divine messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with justice and it seems that I can hear God saying to America, 'You are too arrogant.  If you don't change your ways I will rise up and break the back bone of your power.'" - Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.  - (circa 1967)

The backbone of American power is twofold: the dollar and its military.

"On 16 September 1985, when the Commerce Department announced that the United States had become a debtor nation, the American Empire died."  - Gore Vidal 

In Vietnam, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Syria and the shadow wars in Africa today the American military is being pummeled.   How have these wars been going for us?  Not well.

In our churches Jesus Christ is denied - forsaken and replaced by liberal ideas and humanistic songs and sermons.  Evangelism is a false moniker ascribed to those of the post-modern neo-gnostic church that still acknowledge a form of institutional religion that has long since lost any spiritual authority.  (1 Samuel 4:21 "The spirit has departed.")

The only standard expressed in our churches is that of financial and social debauchery.  Most preachers have one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket (or pants as the case may be).   The LAW of Moses, by which Jesus lived, preached, died and rose from the tomb, is denied.  The ROOT of power which established and maintained the church for many years has been trampled upon and betrayed.  Our churches are dying - as have the churches of Europe before them. 

The ONLY standard of righteousness is the LAW of Moses.

The church, as well as the rest of America, has denied it.  This is why the blood of our children flood their schools, why the blood of citizens flow in grocery stores and shopping malls, why violence of all sorts escalates and why the church is now a joke.   Years ago, the gay community was held in contempt.  Today the GAY AUTHORITY is respected and cannot be criticized.  It is the church which is now held in contempt.   All BECAUSE the church has denied the LAW.

Scoffers may not like those who embrace GOD's LAW, but they will surely respect them for it.

It is time for some LAW to be embraced again - else we will all die in lawLESSness and faithlessness.

Look around you, dear reader.  God is NOT blessing America.  We are under judgment BECAUSE we have denied GOD's LAW and our own need of REPENTANCE.

We are not as holy as we like to think we are.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by choir loft

[WilliamL]

On 8/7/2022 at 7:24 AM, choir loft said:

The ONLY standard of righteousness is the LAW of Moses.

Righteousness by works. Anathema to the Gospel.

Here is the only source of righteousness for the disciples of Christ:

2 Cor. 5:21 For He [God] made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

Phil. 3:8 ...I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

 

You need to carefully consider the following:

 

Gal. 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.