Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD

[Keras]

6 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

No place in scripture is a Millennial Kingdom on earth seen

Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement,dissolving this earth (The End)

Of course the several verses of scripture that were provided, clearly shows this fire at the Lords return

Revelation 20 clearly shows that there will be a Millennium reign of King Jesus. 

None of the prophesies that describe the Return of Jesus, say He will destroy the earth at that time. 

Your scriptures refer to the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal event, years before the Return. 

Your constant promotion of the AMill theory, an obvious error and contradiction of Bible truths, is a sad indictment on you. 

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

Revelation 20 clearly shows that there will be a Millennium reign of King Jesus. 

None of the prophesies that describe the Return of Jesus, say He will destroy the earth at that time. 

Your scriptures refer to the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal event, years before the Return. 

Your constant promotion of the AMill theory, an obvious error and contradiction of Bible truths, is a sad indictment on you. 

Your constant denial of the fact, no literal Kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present is seen in Revelation 20:1-6

Your constant denial of the fact, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

There will be no Millennial Kingdom on this earth, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man

Edited January 29, 2022 by truth7t7

[Keras]

10 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Your constant denial of the fact, no literal Kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present is seen in Revelation 20:1-6

Your constant denial of the fact, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

There will be no Millennial Kingdom on this earth, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man

Your beliefs oppose scriptural truths. 

Revelation 20 does say there will be a thousand year reign of Jesus.  On the earth, inhabited by mortals: Isaiah 65:18-25 proves it. 

Nowhere does the Prophesies say Jesus will use fire at His Return.   On His terrible Day of wrath, yes; but the Return in glory, no. 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Keras

[not an echo]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 1/24/2022 at 2:29 PM, not an echo said:

Diaste, is Scripture that it did occur proof?  If Scripture says it did occur and it's impossible to show that it didn't occur, that's just evidence from both directions.  That is evidence.

It is. I want to see it. Just as Joel said. Every element of the prophecy from Joel 1:1 to Joel 2:27. I would accept biblical, extra biblical, historical, even secular anecdotes. This can be in the form of direct or indirect statements from which I can infer. 

Hello Diaste,

As I have mentioned, I will be going down another path of evidence soon.  For now, is there a particular evidence that I have put forth that you feel misrepresents what the truth of the matter is?  I feel that the evidences I have compiled that speak to your questions have all been solid, but it appears that if an evidence I give happens to not be a perfect word match, you reject it.  Have you considered holding yourself to the same rules you insist on holding me to?  I have asked you, "Where is the A of D in Joel?" and you say something like, "Well, 'The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD' (1:9)."  Why would you give me that kind of answer when you are such a stickler?

I have asked you, "Where does it say in The Revelation that 'the rivers of waters are dried up' (Joel 1:20)?" and you say something like, "Well, the waters are made bitter, so that is the same as them being dried up."  Hey, that works nice---for you.  I have asked you concerning the locusts in Revelation 9:3 and how they are commanded not to hurt any of the flora and how you reconcile this with the locusts of Joel, which have no such prohibition.  I'm not remembering now just how you answered me on that, but I know that a like answer from me would not have satisfied you.  I have other instances of your manner in mind, but I really don't have the time now to go back and research your replies.  I am satisfied of this though---For our respective positions, the evidences I have put forth will meet your criteria better than the evidences you have put forth will meet your criteria.

On 1/27/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 1/24/2022 at 2:29 PM, not an echo said:

Just to clarify, I believe Joel 2:28-29 began to come to pass on the Day of Pentecost---in accord with Peter's words.  Moreover, what began then has continued...

The verse from Joel 2 reads,

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever THE LIKE, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of MANY generations.

Being mindful of Scriptural concepts, consider this from Daniel 2 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom...

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

There's several things to consider here, and I have a thought or two concerning it.  For now, for here, I would just like to ask you how encompassing you think the words "THE LIKE" are, what you see as the trend of the kingdoms after Babylon, which is represented by the head.  Also, whatever you believe, how many generations do you think it would take to make the category of "many" (Joel 2:2)?

Expand  

None of that addresses the point. Many armies came and went since the time Joel recorded the divine utterance and the successive armies surpassed them all. I call attention to the Muslim horde that swept the known world, including Israel, as the greatest of all armies the world has ever seen. It was the most brutal and destructive force to the time of it's influence. In the time of the 6th century the Medes and Persians surpassed the Babylonian strength. Maybe that's many generations. Lets look.

Joel 2:2 "... there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, [even] to the years of many generations." KJV

The BSB captures the real sense of Joel 2:2

"...such as never was of old, nor will ever be in ages to come."

What's missed here, imo, is "...neither shall be any more after it..." and "...nor ever will be..."

This idea of the divine record is not that time will pass and then a greater will show up, but that there will never ever be another of the like for all time, forevermore, never. And that, my friend, is a direct reference to the end of the age army. Just in this the army would have to greater than the Muslim armies of 700-1400 AD. 

I'm even more convinced now that Joel is referring to the Eze 38-39 war which is firmly planted at the time of Jesus return.

I disagree.  I believe the KJV captures the real sense of Joel 2:2.

You make the statement, "This idea of the divine record is not that time will pass and then a greater will show up, but that there will never ever be another of the like for all time, forevermore, never. And that, my friend, is a direct reference to the end of the age army."  If I am understanding you correctly, how do you reconcile this with the post-Millennial army of Revelation 20:7-9?  Seems to me that your take sets you up for a contradiction.

On 1/27/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 1/24/2022 at 2:29 PM, not an echo said:

Not sure where you are getting your "'Nations'!" here.  In any case, were there not many "'Nations'!" in the lands of the Bible days?  How many nations does it take to equal "'Nations'!"  Are you taking it that the word "nations" always means "global"?

The sense from 2:6 is 'all folk'. 

"... the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness."

The idea of 'all faces' is like saying 'the entire everyone'. 

The word for people here is 'am'. That's people or the common man and has no ethnic or religious affiliation.

The word for 'all' is 'kol' or 'the whole or all'

'Faces' here is 'panim' and refers to the countenance or the face of a person. It's a term for mankind.

Then we get...."the common man will suffer, the whole of mankind will glow with astonishment" 

It's everyone. The BSB got the right sense. It's the nations of earth and not Israel-centric.

Just note that if this reference concerns the then known world (my position) the criteria that you point out would have been met the same as it would if it is a last days reference and concerns the now known world (your position).

On 1/27/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 1/24/2022 at 2:29 PM, not an echo said:

To me, your statements here indicate that you haven't really paid much attention to my evidences.  See my evidence NUMBER 17.

I paid attention. But paying attention does not require acceptance of the conclusions. I heard what you said. That's how I can confidently reject the summation. 

I get the feeling you think just because you said it makes it true and if someone challenges the doctrine they, 'weren't paying attention'. More than a little insulting. Not to me. I can see how others would find it an undesirable statement however.

It was just an impression I got.  I'll forgive you of the impression you got if you'll forgive me the impression I got.

[truth7t7]

52 minutes ago, Keras said:

Revelation 20 does say there will be a thousand year reign of Jesus.  On the earth, inhabited by mortals: Isaiah 65:18-25 proves it. 

Nowhere does the Prophesies say Jesus will use fire at His Return.   On His terrible Day of wrath, yes; but the Return in glory, no. 

 

"False" Revelation 20 Nor Isaiah 65 States There Will Be A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth

Isaiah Chapters 11 & 65 Is The Very Same Place, The Eternal Kingdom, In The New Heaven And Earth, Don't Be Deceived By Claims This Represents A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth

Same Wolf & Lamb Together, And Lion Eating Straw Like The Bullock/Ox, In The Eternal Kingdom, In The New Heaven And Earth

(For, Behold, I Create New Heavens And A New Earth)

Isaiah 65:17-18 & 25KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 11:6-7KJV
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Edited January 30, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

Nowhere does the Prophesies say Jesus will use fire at His Return.   On His terrible Day of wrath, yes; but the Return in glory, no. 

 

Your Claim Is False, Jesus Christ Will Return In "Fire" And Judgement As Prophesied

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Edited January 30, 2022 by truth7t7

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

As I have mentioned, I will be going down another path of evidence soon.  For now, is there a particular evidence that I have put forth that you feel misrepresents what the truth of the matter is?  I feel that the evidences I have compiled that speak to your questions have all been solid, but it appears that if an evidence I give happens to not be a perfect word match, you reject it.  Have you considered holding yourself to the same rules you insist on holding me to?  I have asked you, "Where is the A of D in Joel?" and you say something like, "Well, 'The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD' (1:9)."  Why would you give me that kind of answer when you are such a stickler?

I'm not looking for word to word matches. Sometimes that may be required but it's not an overarching theme in the search for understanding. What is a theme is the concepts. When the Pharisee challenged Jesus in Matt 22 to state the most important commandment Jesus related the concept of love for God and your neighbor. Jesus took the Pharisee right out of the comfort zone of the letter, explaining the true Spiritual meaning of the commandments. 

2 Corinthians 3:6
“He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”"

This is my fundamental approach. Not the letter, but the Spirit. What is the Spirit saying behind the letter and the words? What is the understanding by the Spirit, of the Spirit and in the Spirit? I can go on and on with study and volumes of writing and clever speeches but if there is no understanding of, by and in the Spirit of the Most High, I have learned nothing and I have no understanding. 

To address the issue above: ""Well, 'The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD' "

I provided examples in Daniel 9 and 11 speaking to what the A of D looks like. They are not word for word with each other or with Joel's description. The concept is wholly valid however. When Jesus says to look to Daniel for the understanding of the A of D we find a great deal of information on the A of D in three chapters of Daniel. One of the elements is the oblation.

The oblation is the meal and drink offering from Lev 23:18

"Along with the bread you are to present seven unblemished male lambs a year old, one young bull, and two rams. They will be a burnt offering to the LORD, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings—an offering made by fire, a pleasing aroma to the LORD."

This is exactly what Joel says is withheld from the house of God. If the oblation is cut off the sacrifices are not complete and are inadequate to the point of meaninglessness. The major point here is this is exactly what happens in the A of D Jesus mentions in Matthew 24, the same one He says Daniel knows about, and has the same problematic issue for the Jews as Joel said. Small wonder why..."

the priests are in mourning, those who minister before the LORD.

So then Joel is obviously referring to the A of D. I will stipulate we cannot know for sure if it's the same A of D as mentioned in Daniel and by Jesus, but it is a similar event with all the horror for the Jews evident.

Back to the real issue of the prophecy of Joel 1 to Joel 2:27 is: when did all of that come to pass as spoken e.g.: A of D, grains burned up, trees scorched, water dried up, all the pastures gone and the nearness of the day of the Lord in relation to these conditions and events?

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

I have asked you, "Where does it say in The Revelation that 'the rivers of waters are dried up' (Joel 1:20)?" and you say something like, "Well, the waters are made bitter, so that is the same as them being dried up."  Hey, that works nice---for you. 

I didn't say that. I qualified it by saying 'the waters are effectively dried up as they will provide no moisture." Consider that "many people died from the bitter waters." Consider further 'dried up' in Joel 1 is 'yabesh' which can mean 'to be dry', 'dried up' or 'withered' depending on the context. So while it's not an exact match the concept is the same. If there is no water is the same in concept as having oceans of water that one can't drink; you have no life sustaining fluid.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

I have asked you concerning the locusts in Revelation 9:3 and how they are commanded not to hurt any of the flora and how you reconcile this with the locusts of Joel, which have no such prohibition.  I'm not remembering now just how you answered me on that, but I know that a like answer from me would not have satisfied you. 

I'm not sure I did answer that. I have heard the cankerworm, locusts, palmerworm and caterpillar are metaphors in Joel 1 but I'm undecided about that. What I see in Joel 1 is different stages of continuous destruction by several types of pestilence as named. It's not just locusts. and it may refer to stages of spiritual degradation, as some seem to think.

In Rev 9 it's not even locusts that would be similar to Joel 1 but:

"And the shapes of the locusts [were]

like unto horses prepared unto battle; 

and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, 

and their faces [were] as the faces of men.

 8And they had hair as the hair of women,

 and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.

 9And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron

; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots

 of many horses running to battle. 

10And they had tails like unto scorpions,

 and there were stings in their tails: 

and their power [was] to hurt men five months. "

Now that a pretty detailed description of something. Certainly not a grasshopper. Does Joel have a similar description in any aspect?

"That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten;" is from Joel 1:4

That's not it if this is that to which you refer. However...

Rev 9, "7And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; "

Joel 2, "4The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run."

This is quite similar.

Rev 9, "9...and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle."

Joel 2, "5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap"

Another similarity.

An issue is this: "3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them."

And that is in contrast to the Rev 9 prohibition here: "4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;"

I would say this is the 5th trumpet. Since the trumps are sounded in order this comes after the destruction of all the grass and 1/3 of the trees at trump #1.

Since there is such striking similarity in the Joel 2 and Rev 9 account of this army I would say it's the same army and what we see in Joel are the results of the 1st trump. It's not said the army of Joel is the army burning anything, just that a flame devours before them and burns behind them and the land is like Eden before them and behind desolate. Then there is that 6th trumpet army...

To speculate this is likely the effects of the first trump or, the 5th trump and 6th in concert. It's not like hail and fire fall on the earth and all the green grass and trees are gone in an instant. As plausible is a lengthy period where hail and fire sweep the earth[5 months?] destroying the vegetation, and this army of Joel 2, Rev 9 sweeps in behind the storm of fire and hail within that burned out vegetation and torments the people. Or the 6th trumpet army is the vanguard and the 5th trumpet army comes behind. Perhaps

This would account for a flame devouring before them and burning behind them in Joel 2 and the prohibition in Rev 9:4. We have no clues to how quickly the trumps sound in relation to each other so this isn't impossible. It's sounds pretty fantastic, I'll admit. But when this all begins it's going to be way outside any experience in the history of mankind.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

I have other instances of your manner in mind, but I really don't have the time now to go back and research your replies.  I am satisfied of this though---For our respective positions, the evidences I have put forth will meet your criteria better than the evidences you have put forth will meet your criteria.

I believe you.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

I disagree.  I believe the KJV captures the real sense of Joel 2:2.

Not if you look into the definition and usage of the terms. 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

You make the statement, "This idea of the divine record is not that time will pass and then a greater will show up, but that there will never ever be another of the like for all time, forevermore, never. And that, my friend, is a direct reference to the end of the age army."  If I am understanding you correctly, how do you reconcile this with the post-Millennial army of Revelation 20:7-9?  Seems to me that your take sets you up for a contradiction.

One is at the valley of Jehoshaphat, the other at the end of the millennium. The one at the end of the millennium is only described as great in number with no other clues. The army In Eze 38-39 has a great deal of descriptive terms and one of them is not 'as the sands of the sea'. A main idea here is:

 This army has some attribute that will never again be evident. 

Is it the size? The power? The weapons? The destruction? Super soldiers? Demon beasts? I think the size of the army may be an element but to assume 'never be another of the like' means sheer numbers, and sheer number only, ignores all the other aspects that set this great force apart from any other either before or after. 

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Just note that if this reference concerns the then known world (my position) the criteria that you point out would have been met the same as it would if it is a last days reference and concerns the now known world (your position).

It was just an impression I got.  I'll forgive you of the impression you got if you'll forgive me the impression I got.

Are you saying Rev 20:7-9 is past? I do not understand.

[Keras]

11 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Your Claim Is False, Jesus Christ Will Return In "Fire" And Judgement As Prophesied

Your constant accusations of falsehood  against anyone who challenges your beliefs, is rude and against normal forum discussion. 

You have been refuted, but your intransigence and inability to learn, precludes any change. 

The three proof prophesies which describe the Return; Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11, do not say Jesus comes in fire.   The scriptures you present, all refer to the Lord's Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal event, years before the Return. 

[truth7t7]

10 minutes ago, Keras said:

Your constant accusations of falsehood  against anyone who challenges your beliefs, is rude and against normal forum discussion. 

You have been refuted, but your intransigence and inability to learn, precludes any change. 

The three proof prophesies which describe the Return; Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11, do not say Jesus comes in fire.   The scriptures you present, all refer to the Lord's Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal event, years before the Return. 

The words "True" and "False" are used in everyday discussion, no rudeness whatsoever, the claims you have made are false as scripture has shown below

Quote Keras:

"Nowhere does the Prophesies say Jesus will use fire at His Return. "

Truth7t7 Response:

Your Claim Is False, Jesus Christ Will Return In "Fire" And Judgement As Prophesied

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Edited January 30, 2022 by truth7t7

[Keras]

11 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Your Claim Is False, Jesus Christ Will Return In "Fire" And Judgement As Prophesied

'coming', does not mean Return, in those prophesies. 

Proved by how the Lord is not seen on His Day if fiery wrath, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4,   He sends this fire; Amos 1 & 2:15