Carnality & the World

[Kelly2363]

Carnality

'According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder, I laid a foundation, and someone else is building on it. Each builder must choose with care how to build on it. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ.' 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 (NRSV)

We could be forgiven, if when we see ourselves as believers for imagining that somehow to address our weak condition we need to lay another foundation in our lives upon which we are being built into the Church. What we need to see, however, is that when the Apostle Paul wrote these things to the Church in Corinth, its meaning carried both a local church meaning, as well a spiritual and heavenly sense of the body of Christ. We cannot be casual about our walk as believers. We must build on a true foundation.

To the Ephesians

'So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God.' Ephesians 2:19-22 (NRSV)

Our access through the Spirit to the Father in Heaven is remarkable when we think that we cannot see God with our eyes and yet we can know the Father through the Spirit. One day we will see Him. We know the Father in our spirits by which faith we cry Abba, Father. We enter into worship in the Spirit and in that activity we rise above all the problems of our own lives and seeing the Father by faith, and knowing Christ at His right hand, we can comprehend eternal realities. All of these things transform our natural estate, and for a time, we are transformed. Yet if our minds and fleshy bodies were no more than going after one man of God, instead of looking to God and Christ, then perhaps when we once again remember that we are natural men and women, we may see why we must move beyond being mere men and become spiritual sons.

One way to see this may be to explain things in the form of saying that we yet love the world. The world is that dominion that is under Satan, and of that dominion, Jesus said, 'I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.' Satan had nothing in Christ, and that speaks, in part, of not loving the world other than in the manner appointed by the Father. It is not that the Father does not love all men that are in the world; it is rather that the love of the world itself is enmity with God. So if we say that fifty years ago things in the churches were more straightforward, as a mechanism for explaining our difficulties; and yet miss that matters in the churches were of the same character, when we mean brethren being worldly, then we may not have realised that today the world now upholds self-promotion. That self-promotion is often called equality and diversity. The Bible calls it the flesh.

A Carnal World

It is self idealism that must be addressed because even when that idealism is grounded in a desire to care for others, self idealism is a more profound obstacle to serving Christ, than worldliness. It is often self idealism that informs our underlying drive to labour in the churches so that as much as we are inclined to labour, and as much as we do labour out of our own experience, all that effort is genuinely wasted if we are not labouring upon a dependable foundation. We have no authority to make a foundation of our own. Yet experience in life, both our own and that of others may well cause us to believe that pressing that experience will somehow prove to be foundational. We may have visions, and those too may very well give us hope, especially when we see others in life as we ourselves have known life. That may be many things. We could cite unimaginable things that we have experienced and others, and yet as precious as it is to be compassionate, our suffering is not the foundation of the Church.

We may also miss that if the churches do indeed seem in a more carnal state today, this is because the world itself has become more carnal; and a church that still loves the world will reflect that carnality. So we can see why the Lord has told us that Satan had nothing in Him in the context of calling Satan the ruler of this world. Visions today can and do speak to conditions or burdens, and sometimes to specific issues. What they cannot speak to is the churches, unless they speak of Christ in His fullness. That means His shed blood, but it also means dying daily. It speaks of receiving forgiveness through His blood, and it speaks of His death. Therefore although we may have received numerous visions that give us hope, only one vision informs our faith to serve.

It speaks of a time when the Lord will begin to address the day in which we live and for an end of making the Church ready to receive Christ in His second coming. What men it speaks of and to what effect in their own lives is a mere detail. Our vision must be Christ and all of Him. If we mean that, then we say the foundation laid down by the apostles and the prophets appointed by Christ, and ours through the Scriptures; and by the Scriptures we have Christ. No vision can remove that meaning, and no worthless peddling of the Word of God will produce Christ.

Nor do I say that experience is a worthless thing. I am saying that the foundation of the Church is Christ – both His blood and His body. Both are unto death. The blood is for forgiveness and the death of His body for deliverance and the sanctification of our labour. Our experience, if it is a true experience informs a pastoral attitude, and so when we come into the dominion of others suffering we can show mercy. That has been understood in only one part by some, who having visions that commission them to labour out of their understanding minds, yet may not labour to an end of sanctifying the body of Christ. We must endeavour to avoid being led on by emotion; if by emotion, we see only ourselves and therefore the flesh, and miss the remedy that we have been given in Christ crucified for sin.

Rhomphaeam

[enoob57]

8 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

Our access through the Spirit to the Father in Heaven is remarkable when we think that we cannot see God with our eyes and yet we can know the Father through the Spirit

Kelly we know that God has so utilized the simple by condemning the wise- all knowledge in and of this creation will be completely removed from existence and we all in Christ Jesus will be as little children entering the eternal state of the new heaven, and new earth of 100% newness:

Luke 10:21

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
KJV
The identifier of whom the complete understanding shall come and it is revealed in time by event:

1 Cor 1:26-29

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
KJV
This is speaking of that which is 1st created to that which Jesus went to prepare a place for us...

The cessation of all knowledge of this 1st creation:
 

Isa 65:17

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
KJV

1 Cor 13:8-10

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
KJV
 

Rev 21:1-4

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

Here is the fulfilment spoken of:

Mark 10:14

14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
KJV

For God identifies His Kingdom as such:

Dan 7:14

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
KJV
So when we, by the Word of God, are brought into the truth of said Word we are set free by it and the carnality of this world becomes the foolishness that it is  

[Kelly2363]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

Kelly we know that God has so utilized the simple by condemning the wise- all knowledge in and of this creation will be completely removed from existence and we all in Christ Jesus will be as little children entering the eternal state of the new heaven, and new earth of 100% newness:

Luke 10:21

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
KJV
The identifier of whom the complete understanding shall come and it is revealed in time by event:

1 Cor 1:26-29

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
KJV
This is speaking of that which is 1st created to that which Jesus went to prepare a place for us...

The cessation of all knowledge of this 1st creation:
 

Isa 65:17

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
KJV

1 Cor 13:8-10

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
KJV
 

Rev 21:1-4

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

Here is the fulfilment spoken of:

Mark 10:14

14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
KJV

For God identifies His Kingdom as such:

Dan 7:14

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
KJV
So when we, by the Word of God, are brought into the truth of said Word we are set free by it and the carnality of this world becomes the foolishness that it is  

 

Thank you for your post, brother. I ought to make myself plain and clear if I am to continue on in this board. Whilst I do see the lovely simplicity of the wisdom of God unto salvation - I am not so much concerned to directly address the fleshiness and carnality of the many brethren - so as to speak to the many brethren - I am concerned so as to speak to the lesser number that are workmen in the churches. Without that distinction it is an easy matter to be corrected and endlessly corrected on a discussion board that is intended for encouragement and edification of the many. Yet I can and do write to the many members as any other member can do and am thankful for that fellowship and opportunity to both encourage and to learn when it is simplicity that is the ambition. What I post in a broader meaning - And in the fuller sense of my own calling is done in obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit and I will not flinch from bearing with the consequence of doing so regardless as to what that consequence may be. Shalom

[missmuffet]

On 9/17/2021 at 11:49 PM, Kelly2363 said:

 

Thank you for your post, brother. I ought to make myself plain and clear if I am to continue on in this board. Whilst I do see the lovely simplicity of the wisdom of God unto salvation - I am not so much concerned to directly address the fleshiness and carnality of the many brethren - so as to speak to the many brethren - I am concerned so as to speak to the lesser number that are workmen in the churches. Without that distinction it is an easy matter to be corrected and endlessly corrected on a discussion board that is intended for encouragement and edification of the many. Yet I can and do write to the many members as any other member can do and am thankful for that fellowship and opportunity to both encourage and to learn when it is simplicity that is the ambition. What I post in a broader meaning - And in the fuller sense of my own calling is done in obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit and I will not flinch from bearing with the consequence of doing so regardless as to what that consequence may be. Shalom

Yes, there are many counterfeit Christians in our world today. That would also include Pastors and those who are very active in the Church.God knows their heart so we should leave it with Him. 

[Kelly2363]

28 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Yes, there are many counterfeit Christians in our world today. That would also include Pastors and those who are very active in the Church.God knows their heart so we should leave it with Him. 

Sister - I must obey the Lord - And not least not condemn that which the Lord has called clean. The entirety of the pastoral men that concern me are not counterfeit Christians - they are entirely the Lord' called and chosen. They are those whom are given by the Lord as gifts to His church. It is a simple matter to say that there are false Christians and that some of them are pastors and then to condemn these false men as unbelievers (counterfeits) - it is another thing to speak to them unto judgement when they are the Lord's. 

Who are you to correct this man with your instruction? 

Counterfeits are of no concern. False is another matter and it is that which is become false that concerns God and those to whom He has given that burden. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Kelly2363

[missmuffet]

22 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

Sister - I must obey the Lord - And not least not condemn that which the Lord has called clean. The entirety of the pastoral men that concern me are not counterfeit Christians - they are entirely the Lord' called and chosen. They are those whom are given by the Lord as gifts to His church. It is a simple matter to say that there are false Christians and that some of them are pastors and then to condemn these false men as unbelievers (counterfeits) - it is another thing to speak to them unto judgement when they are the Lord's. 

Who are you to correct this man with your instruction? 

Counterfeits are of no concern. False is another matter and it is that which is become false that concerns God and those to whom He has given that burden. 

Like I said God knows everyone's heart. You can't fool God.

Edited September 19, 2021 by missmuffet

[Kelly2363]

13 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Like I said God knows everyone's heart. You can't fool God.

It is with great care that men seek to fool others - but to fool God is an impossibility. I much prefer to speak plainly then there is no deceit and no mistaken meanings unless I am completely deceived myself. Then I can only expect the fearful hand of the Lord. 

[TheBlade]

4 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

Counterfeits are of no concern. False is another matter and it is that which is become false that concerns God and those to whom He has given that burden. 

Hey Yeshua/Jesus came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin. Was buried and rose the 3rd day is seated at the right hand of the Father the only way to the Father. Saved ...haha.. found when I was very young made to go with my mom to this Baptist Church. Then the sweet holy Spirit luke 11 13 which Christ promised. Then went to Assem, Penta, Charsm, Churches.. just a tiny background. And you?

Its about what do you see as false? What we focus on.. sometimes is all we will see and miss all the wonders He is doing. Is there a catching away coming or right to 2nd coming. I ask when you talk about 2nd coming.. just wonder some believe pre some post praise GOD glory to JESUS! It can be very hard to see.. seems allot of darkness...but for that to happen HAS TO far more light out there  More are coming to Christ like never before.. more are being killed for Christ like never before

[Starise]

The flesh and the Spirit are opposed to one another .The word speaks of Yahweh being the tree and men the branches. The flesh is what we all had prior to our conversion if we were truly converted, so I see the the flesh as a latent and still integral part of each of us who are believers. The Bible  mentions that God prunes those branches that need it. In this way I see Him as the husbandman of the orchard who tends the branches to bear fruit since fruit is the chief goal of a husbandman.

God is a most studious husbandman. All believers were made to bear fruit by abiding in the tree, the foundation of Christ. We can bear no fruit apart from Him.

I have heard the term 'worldly Christians' to describe those who try to keep one foot in the world and the other in the Lord. In reality this just doesn't work. These people will either be pruned or they were never a part of the tree to begin with. Come out from among them we are told. Don't partake in their ways. The true vision is to see the reality of where the world is going. To see where we are going. To realize we are children of the King. My future is so bright I need sunglasses.

Even so, we aren't there yet. We are on the proving grounds. We take our orders from the one who told us to take up our cross daily and follow Him. One day in the future we will have our reward. Until then , we are not greater than out master. We must each bear our burdens until that day we shed these bodies and experience that first realization we are with the Lord and in His place. What a day that will be! This is the mark of the prize of the high calling of God.

[Kelly2363]

On 9/20/2021 at 1:48 AM, TheBlade said:

What we focus on.. sometimes is all we will see and miss all the wonders He is doing. Is there a catching away coming or right to 2nd coming. I ask when you talk about 2nd coming.. just wonder some believe pre some post praise GOD glory to JESUS! It can be very hard to see.. seems allot of darkness...but for that to happen HAS TO far more light out there  More are coming to Christ like never before.. more are being killed for Christ like never before

 

Thats very doubtful if I am to speak of myself as you have asked me to. It's all about what God thinks is false. And that can be measured in the parade that has it that a man walks ahead declaring the glory of God with a rapist and a liar and a thief and a child pressed into sexual harm and a woman drunk with false prophecy as his captains. It must also be self evident that were it possible to arrive at that by simply reading the Scripture - then we would all be better to take a vow of silence and start reading the Scripture. True or false is not whether someone is a believer or not. Anymore - than true or false is a matter of whether a prophet of God is become a fake because he speaks falsely. True or false are measured in the effect of the scroll we eat. Not in a theoretical scale that simply winks at harm and pretends to be innocent by speaking innocently when in truth the actor is guilty of upholding a Babylonian whore who's countenance is such that it had the Apostle John wonder with a great wonder at the sight of her parading as God.  

Edited September 25, 2021 by Kelly2363
Added last sentence.