I'd like y'all's opinion on something especially the ladies

[Kelly2363]

6 hours ago, one.opinion said:

I’m just going to mention this because it is relevant to some of the arguments I’ve seen in this thread - there are several women mentioned in the New Testament (mostly Paul’s letters) that were active in teaching and leadership roles within the early church.

Priscilla
Acts 18:2 wife of Aquila exiled from Rome, 18:18 went with Paul to Syria with her husband Aquila and 18:26 Apollos was taken aside by Aquila and his wife Priscilla.

Phoebe
Romans 16:1-2. I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.

Paul asks the church in Rome to accept Phoebe who is a servant of the church at Cenchrea and that she be helped in whatever matter she may have need in, [because] she herself has also been a helper of many, including Paul.

Cenchrea is essentially the eastern harbour of Corinth. It is the place where Paul had his hair cut in order to keep a vow. It is also the place where Aquila and Priscilla went to be with Paul having arrived from Rome, and from which Paul, Aquila, Priscilla left for Syria (Acts 18:18). In short it was in Cenchrea where Phoebe had been of help to Paul. Aquila and Priscilla who could no longer return to Rome and so Phoebe went to Rome with Paul commendation as to who she was, no doubt to report on the whereabouts and well being of Aquila and Priscilla who had been expressly exiled from Rome by the authorities.

Junia
Romans 16:7 speaks of a sister who is also referred to as an apostle in greek (apostolos) meaning sent out one as well as one who has suffered imprisonment. She is also referred to as being a kinsmen of Paul (related) by geographical citizenship, i.e. Tarsus.

Sent out one does not mean in the local church one. Apostle is sent out, pastor is greek (poimen) and is translated pastor just once in the whole of the bible (Ephesians 4:11). It denotes a shepherding and feeding of the local sheep. It is a position of authority in the local church. Ought not to be confused with apostolos which is a ministry outside of the local church and is itself subject to local pastors with regard to governance, but with the pastor and elders themselves submitting to apostolic spiritual authority. One, that of governance, is earthly governance in the local church, the other, that of apostle, is firstly spiritual but is itself expressed regionally in its outworking.

Euodia & Syntyche
Philippians 4:2-3. I urge Euodia and I urge Syntyche to live in harmony in the Lord. Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

These two sisters are said to have shared Paul struggles. The purpose of the naming of these two sisters is to encourage them to reconcile their differences as well as to ask the true companion to help them together with Clement also [as well] as the rest of [Paul's] fellow workers.

Persis
Romans 16:12. Persis means a persian women and her name is linked to her standing as beloved i.e. Much loved, who has worked hard in the Lord.

Nympha
Colossians 4:15. Nympha is said to own a house in which the church also met.

In these New Testament brethren only one is actually stated to have been involved in what could be included in the term ministry according to Ephesians chapter four. 

To this end Paul not only had sisters who helped him and at least one of these sisters (Junia) is included in the apostolic designation, but as touching upon the local church Paul said “Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension. Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restrain.” (1 Timothy 2:8-15).

For Junia the outworking was clearly evidenced by her imprisonments for the sake of Christ. Clearly Junia was "among" the apostles in her calling of God and so it cannot be other than expected of her to suffer as Christ suffered for the sake of those who are chosen and called. Yet as she was with Paul one would have to ask whether she taught in the local church or in fact whether she was in any sense part of a local church eldership. If she was, then she stood in contradiction to what Paul himself taught and communicated to Timothy. Again looking at the “in Christ” designation of “neither male or female” Paul reminds Timothy that “the man was created first and then the women” yet this is not “in Christ” this is “in Eden”. It is physically expressed by reason of “being created” and it has to do with “the order which God chose to labour”. As regards to Christ Himself, He was born of a woman according to the flesh and so the first man Adam was created first and then the women, and the "last man" Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45) was begotten of a woman. Clearly with regards to Jesus the women is first and the man Christ is second. All this speaks of physical reality.

We cannot ignore physical reality anymore than we can ignore spiritual calling and the fruit thereof. My own feeling is that the die is cast and the end of is is already known. Once the elders of the local church seek God for sisters to be pastors and teachers then it will be so according to their authority no matter what others say about it. Similarly the judgment will be on their heads.

[Heleadethme]

1Co 12:4-7

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

 

It might be that the same spiritual gifts operate a bit differently through women than men. 

But I believe that if we could somehow manage to remain in the simplicity of Christ a lot of dilemmas would solve themselves 'naturally'.   Jesus said "Wherever two or three are gathered in My name there am I in the midst."  The natural man has such a tendency to want to control and manage everything to the 'nth degree, but if the Spirit wants to blow where it willeth, we do much harm to quench it.  We only seem to really begin to see the simplicity of Christ at the start of revivals, when God takes everyone by surprise, but then it doesn't take long before the flesh takes control again and things return back to ritual and rote.  This is why new wine needs new wineskins.

[SIC]

Maybe I wasn't entirely clear about the smalll group. For a considerable period of time it was lead by a man and the only members were ladies.. A single man was leading a small group of 6-7 ladies. Now the man has married one of the ladies and one of the ladies got married and her husband has joined the group. The group is jokingly referred to as the 'ladies group'

That is what makes it weird to me. A man leading a ladies group..

[Abrielle]

1 hour ago, SIC said:

Maybe I wasn't entirely clear about the smalll group. For a considerable period of time it was lead by a man and the only members were ladies.. A single man was leading a small group of 6-7 ladies. Now the man has married one of the ladies and one of the ladies got married and her husband has joined the group. The group is jokingly referred to as the 'ladies group'

That is what makes it weird to me. A man leading a ladies group..

 

SIC, your question was "are these opinions misogynistic?" To discuss if that group is good or not is another thread.
In this topic, you wanted to make sure that you weren't being misogynistic, but notice how this was so unimportant for almost everyone that replied to you. Is it possible that your perspective needs some adjustment? Maybe right now you are too close to this situation and need time and space to think about the good answers our brothers and sisters have given.

To call you "misogynistic" was unproductive. If it is accurate or not, only you can evaluate through prayer, only you and God know if your observations come from dislike towards women or not, or if those sisters would have reasons to feel unloved by you if they knew what is going on inside of you.

[Starise]

4 hours ago, SIC said:

Maybe I wasn't entirely clear about the smalll group. For a considerable period of time it was lead by a man and the only members were ladies.. A single man was leading a small group of 6-7 ladies. Now the man has married one of the ladies and one of the ladies got married and her husband has joined the group. The group is jokingly referred to as the 'ladies group'

That is what makes it weird to me. A man leading a ladies group..

If this single man was also the pastor I think this is poor judgement. The Bible tells us to avoid even the appearance of evil. There is a reason for wisdom in how the opposite sex is dealt with. I am aware of probably at least a half dozen incidents between men and women that broke both marriages and churches up within only a 50 mile radius of me, so I think you are wise to flag the potential issues here.

We like to think we are all strong, but apparently many misjudge these things and fall into sin.Right off the bat I can call out numerous examples. At least one pastor had an affair with a church secretary. Two chior members left their spouses for other members of that chior.One pastor left his wife for another woman in the congregation. Often women are having marital problems and get overly connected with another male who seems to care more. Yet another pastor's wife had a secret life with numerous men. Pastors should always keep everything above reproach. Leading a group of women means making social connections even if only superficial. These women might at some point need extra attention to their problems. If a pastor chooses to do this he should never be alone with a female. More wise is probably to direct these women to a female counselor.

Even if nothing is happening we don't want to foster an environment where it could happen.

You say this guy married one of the women. Looks like maybe he had an ulterior motive to lead that group. I can't say for sure, but if I were looking for a wife and could teach 7 interesting ladies this would be a tempting prospect. Our pastor met his wife where he led a small group at another church, so it must happen a least some of the time.If we men want to meet someone we might resort to creating a situation to make that happen. I know it seems maybe underhanded and sneaky but I've done it and therefore see the potential.On the surface it seems nothing like what it might really be. Only God knows sometimes.For an unmarried man maybe. For a married man it's a no no. 

I like what both sexes do for the kingdom and they often do what they do in different ways. The OP doesn't delve into women teaching men. I would think a woman would seek another woman for the things a man just doesn't know. Likewise there are some things a man needs a man for. Someone mentioned having a mentor earlier. This is a VERY good idea.

 

[CaptWalker]

14 hours ago, Josheb said:

What do you like to do for fun?  

Well i never thought having fun/hobbies was a pre-requisite for being a Christian? Seriously though now i'm pretty sure he probably just meant something like whether i am into hunting or fishing, and things like that. It's really just the way he said it, and within the first 10 minutes or so like i was already just one of the boys...but i guess what do you expect at a Baptist church? But at least they would never have any all women's classes taught by men or vice-versa.

Edited September 24, 2021 by CaptWalker

[Starise]

57 minutes ago, CaptWalker said:

Well i never thought having fun/hobbies was a pre-requisite for being a Christian? Seriously though now i'm pretty sure he probably just meant something like whether i am into hunting or fishing, and things like that. It's really just the way he said it, and within the first 10 minutes or so like i was already just one of the boys...but i guess what do you expect at a Baptist church? But at least they would never have any all women's classes taught by men or vice-versa.

I was going to say it sounds like something I would have said in trying to meet another man in a group. I would have probably said, Do you have any hobbies? Or what do you enjoy? I guess " What do you do for fun" works too. The last time I asked that I found out about pickle ball. Something retired men must have the time for lol.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Starise

[SIC]

21 hours ago, Starise said:

If this single man was also the pastor I think this is poor judgement. The Bible tells us to avoid even the appearance of evil. There is a reason for wisdom in how the opposite sex is dealt with. I am aware of probably at least a half dozen incidents between men and women that broke both marriages and churches up within only a 50 mile radius of me, so I think you are wise to flag the potential issues here.

We like to think we are all strong, but apparently many misjudge these things and fall into sin.Right off the bat I can call out numerous examples. At least one pastor had an affair with a church secretary. Two chior members left their spouses for other members of that chior.One pastor left his wife for another woman in the congregation. Often women are having marital problems and get overly connected with another male who seems to care more. Yet another pastor's wife had a secret life with numerous men. Pastors should always keep everything above reproach. Leading a group of women means making social connections even if only superficial. These women might at some point need extra attention to their problems. If a pastor chooses to do this he should never be alone with a female. More wise is probably to direct these women to a female counselor.

Even if nothing is happening we don't want to foster an environment where it could happen.

You say this guy married one of the women. Looks like maybe he had an ulterior motive to lead that group. I can't say for sure, but if I were looking for a wife and could teach 7 interesting ladies this would be a tempting prospect. Our pastor met his wife where he led a small group at another church, so it must happen a least some of the time.If we men want to meet someone we might resort to creating a situation to make that happen. I know it seems maybe underhanded and sneaky but I've done it and therefore see the potential.On the surface it seems nothing like what it might really be. Only God knows sometimes.For an unmarried man maybe. For a married man it's a no no. 

I like what both sexes do for the kingdom and they often do what they do in different ways. The OP doesn't delve into women teaching men. I would think a woman would seek another woman for the things a man just doesn't know. Likewise there are some things a man needs a man for. Someone mentioned having a mentor earlier. This is a VERY good idea.

 

The man who is leading the group is a foreigner. He was on work visa while leading the ladies group. He only got his Permanent Residency after marrying one of the ladies in the group.

[Baltika]

24 minutes ago, SIC said:

The man who is leading the group is a foreigner. He was on work visa while leading the ladies group. He only got his Permanent Residency after marrying one of the ladies in the group.

Oh dear! Red Flag my friend.

Best Wishes

Baltika

[Heleadethme]

On 9/23/2021 at 8:41 AM, Josheb said:

Judges 4:4-5
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.  She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel came up to her for judgment. 

Israel's spiritual condition wasn't good at the time.  Being "ruled over by women" is in itself a judgment upon an apostate nation.  I don't believe Deborah is an example written about that we should follow on purpose.