What IF...?

[Greenie]

@Kelly2363

Wouldn't you have to stay in the faith for this to be applicable?? 

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

That's sort of my point Sower. Example:

A man falls deeply in love with a woman, they make a betrothal and eventually get married. A couple was intended to stay married for as long as they live. The status of that suddenly changed:

Deuteronomy 24:1 (KJV) When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Jeremiah 3:8 (KJV) And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

After being faithful to his wife for 10 years; the husband decides he is not in love anymore and grows weary of her, and her requirements. He divorces his wife and walks away from his vow and commitment, to pursue other interests.

The point: It happens all the time. People fall deeply in and out of love with their spouse, and even God, and walk away. There is no doubt the bride originally loved the bridegroom and proved it with faithfulness, word and actions. The same applies to some people with their relationship with the Lord. 

The question: Falling out of love with Jesus, then turning your back and walking away; what is their salvation status? They decided to divorce Jesus forever. Will Jesus 'force' the betrothal and marriage of the lamb against their wishes? 

We neither fall in, nor out, of love with Jesus. Those things are mere feelings.  Our love for him, is because he has made us born again, giving us a new nature that loves him, loves righteousness, truth, compassion, etc.

Someone whom God has truly made born again, cannot revert to a life of sin - it's impossible, because he has a new nature.

1 John 3:9 (EMTV) No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 

[Kelly2363]

20 minutes ago, Greenie said:

@Kelly2363

Wouldn't you have to stay in the faith for this to be applicable?? 

At the risk of seeming critical the opening comment is not the same in meaning as the one that was posted and speaks of a marriage between a man and a woman. That latter one ends in the marriage feast of the Lamb and the former has to do with walking away from the Lord. They both share one sense of meaning - walking away.

So what is it that we need to be dressed in readiness for the Lord. A white garment. And where will we get that from? From the righteous works of the saints. Therein is the Corinthian verse. It may very well be possible to refuse to dress in readiness and not to be included in the marriage feast of the Lamb - but it is impossible to separate yourself from Christ - regardless as to the outward appearance. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Kelly2363

[David1701]

3 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

At the risk of seeming critical the opening comment is not the same in meaning as the one that was posted and speaks of a marriage between a man and a woman. That latter one ends in the marriage feast of the Lamb and the former has to do with walking away from the Lord. They both share one sense of meaning - walking away.

So what is it that we need to be dressed in readiness for the Lord. A white garment. And where will we get that from? From the righteous works of the saints. Therein is the Corinthian verse. It may very well be possible to refuse to dress in readiness and not to be included in the marriage feast of the Lamb - but it impossible to separate yourself from Christ - regardless as to the outward appearance. 

Those who do not have wedding garments are cast out, into outer darkness. 

True faith results in good works (righteous works); but, pseudo-faith does not result in good works.

[Kelly2363]

Just now, David1701 said:

Those who do not have wedding garments are cast out, into outer darkness. 

True faith results in good works (righteous works); but, pseudo-faith does not result in good works.

Yes they are - but then tell me brother where is outer darkness - and what is its measure? Moreover, the Lord is not evil that He should forget our good works. So how will YOU measure any mans good works if all you see is dead doctrine and cannot fathom why men walk away when they once confessed Christ and bore witness of Him?

[David1701]

4 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

Yes they are - but then tell me brother where is outer darkness - and what is its measure? Moreover, the Lord is not evil that He should forget our good works. So how will YOU measure any mans good works if all you see is dead doctrine and cannot fathom why men walk away when they once confessed Christ and bore witness of Him?

Outer darkness is where the unbelievers go.  God is light, so outer darkness is where God's presence is not.

Men who once confessed Christ and bore external witness of him, but who then leave him, are dogs returning to their vomit and sows to their wallowing in the mire.  They might have had some temporary reformation of outward demeanour, but no change of nature.

[Kelly2363]

9 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Outer darkness is where the unbelievers go.  God is light, so outer darkness is where God's presence is not.

Men who once confessed Christ and bore external witness of him, but who then leave him, are dogs returning to their vomit and sows to their wallowing in the mire.  They might have had some temporary reformation of outward demeanour, but no change of nature.

That is utterly condemnatory - it lacks compassion and is of course worthless to addressing anything that is likely to bring any sheep back into the fold that has wandered away. But I would invite you to prove your first claim from the Scripture. Not a worthless peddling of disconnected meanings but a connected meaning that has more to say than that the dog returns to the vomit and the sow to the mire.

I have met some of these sheep that have wandered away when I have been preaching in city centres and so I know what the difference is between a dog to the vomit and a sheep that has wandered away. Perhaps more pertinently I have their witness as to why they fell. It's never a good account and neither does it bear a good witness for those legalistic men who caused them to stumble by their lack of compassion and their weighty claims. Just saying David. And I am a Calvinist. 

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Kelly2363

[David1701]

2 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

That is utterly condemnatory - it lacks compassion and is of course worthless to addressing anything that is likely to bring any sheep back into the fold that has wandered away. But I would invite you to prove your first claim from the Scripture. Not a worthless peddling of disconnected meanings but a connected meaning that has more to say than that the dog returns to the vomit and the sow to the mire.

I have met some of these sheep that have wandered away when I have been preaching in city centres and so I know what the difference is between a dog to the vomit and a sheep that has wandered away. Perhaps more pertinently I have their witness as to why they fell. It's never a good account and neither does it bear a good witness for those legalistic men who caused them to stumble by their lack of compassion and their weighty claims. Just saying David. And I am a Calvinist. 

 

A sheep that goes wandering, does not revert to a life characterised by sin.  He may go into a limited amount of sin, temporarily, but not to a life of sin.  This is one of the tests for authentic faith.

The Lord goes after a wandering sheep and brings him back, as the Bible says.

There is nothing condemnatory about saying that someone who professes Christ, then reverts to a life of sin, was not saved in the first place.  It is what the Bible says.

1 John 3:9 (EMTV) No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

2 Pet. 2:20-22 (EMTV)

20 For if having escaped from the corruptions of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet by these, having become entangled they are defeated, the latter end has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it was better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the saying of the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "A sow, having washed, returns to her wallowing in the mire." 

So what about a wandering sheep?

Gal. 6:1,2 (EMTV)

1 Brothers, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness, looking out for yourself lest you also be tempted.
2 Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfil the law of Christ.

This is for genuine Christians who fall into a temptation, not for fake Christians who go back to their life of sin.

[Kelly2363]

49 minutes ago, David1701 said:

A sheep that goes wandering, does not revert to a life characterised by sin.  He may go into a limited amount of sin, temporarily, but not to a life of sin.  This is one of the tests for authentic faith.

The Lord goes after a wandering sheep and brings him back, as the Bible says.

There is nothing condemnatory about saying that someone who professes Christ, then reverts to a life of sin, was not saved in the first place.  It is what the Bible says.

1 John 3:9 (EMTV) No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

2 Pet. 2:20-22 (EMTV)

20 For if having escaped from the corruptions of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet by these, having become entangled they are defeated, the latter end has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it was better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the saying of the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "A sow, having washed, returns to her wallowing in the mire." 

So what about a wandering sheep?

Gal. 6:1,2 (EMTV)

1 Brothers, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness, looking out for yourself lest you also be tempted.
2 Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfil the law of Christ.

This is for genuine Christians who fall into a temptation, not for fake Christians who go back to their life of sin.

 

Well yes you are very careful with your words. But I am inclined to be much more careful with the elect of God. Every believer I have known that has fallen from their faithful walk has fallen because of the harm they received in the churches. It never came from the world. And almost their entire pain was their falling away and their inner contradiction - whilst their sin was their flesh and the means to destroy themselves because they could not fathom the love of God when those in their sight could not love them. So whilst you are careful with your doctrines that are in truth disconnected meanings - I am careful with the sheep. The only brethren I have no mercy for is those who cause stumbling. There are by now more sheep that have fallen away than are presently in the fold. You are either disconnected from the real world or else you much favour theologies that are dead when you cannot see the reality of the churches and the effects that have been measured by pastors and elders who have little regard for the real needs of the brethren and rather favour their pocket books. But we are done David. If for no more reason than what we have said already. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Kelly2363
Spelling

[David1701]

15 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

Well yes you are very careful with your words. But I am inclined to be much more careful with the elect of God. Every believe I have known that has fallen from their faithful walk has fallen because of the harm they received in the churches. It never came from the world. And almost their entire pain was their falling away and their inner contradiction - whilst their sin was their flesh and the means to destroy themselves because they could not fathom the love of God when those in their sight could not love them. So whilst you are careful with your doctrines that are in truth disconnected meanings - I am careful with the sheep. The only brethren I have no mercy for is those who cause stumbling. There are by now more sheep that have fallen away than are presently in the fold. You are either disconnected from the real world or else you much favour theologies that are dead when you cannot see the reality of the churches and the effects that have been measured by pastors and elders who have little regard for the real needs of the brethren and rather favour their pocket books. But we are done David. If for no more reason than what we have said already. 

I wish that you had been more careful with your words!

I have very real regard for the needs of the brethren and I love them.  On the other hand, this post of yours is precisely the kind of attitude that hurts the brethren.  It is untrue, insulting and condemning.  This is made all the worse by the fact that I have done no such thing to you.

Why, I wonder, is it often the case that those who talk the most about compassion, show it the least?