We CAN Consciously Choose What We Believe.

[JAG**]

What We Believe CAN Be Consciously Chosen.
By JAG
October 2, 2021

"We cannot consciously choose what we believe."__ Internet Poster

The Bible specifically contradicts and repudiates that claim.

Christendom's core Bible verse, John 3:16, assumes that humans
can choose what they believe. "For God so loved the world that He
gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not
perish but have eternal life." We CAN choose to believe that
John 3:16 is the truth and get the gift of eternal life ~ or we can
choose not to believe John 3:16 is true and get John 3:16's
perish.

"choose you this day" , , ,

"And if it seems evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day
whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served
that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites,
in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve
the LORD." Joshua 24:15

This also involved consciously choosing what one would believe. There
was a set of beliefs behind them choosing to serve the Lord.

Human Sin and the desire to protect that sin and to continue to sin,
is the father of the notion that beliefs cannot be consciously chosen.

When a person allows themselves to believe that beliefs cannot be
consciously chosen that means they can say to themselves: "Hey I have
no control over what I choose to believe, therefore I will NOT repent of my
sins and believe in God because I know that doing that would require
me to give up my sinning." Here we can list our your most enjoyable
sins that we want to hang on to.

Believing that beliefs cannot be consciously chosen will allow us to keep
on enjoying our favorite sins ~ and THIS, at bottom, is what UNBELIEF is all
about and has ALWAYS been about.

Free Will is heavily assumed throughout the Bible and the entire Bible
is written on the assumption that beliefs CAN be consciously chosen, and
in fact one's eternal destiny is based upon what one chooses to believe.


JAG
 

[David1701]

15 minutes ago, JAG** said:

What We Believe CAN Be Consciously Chosen.
By JAG
October 2, 2021

"We cannot consciously choose what we believe."__ Internet Poster

The Bible specifically contradicts and repudiates that claim.

Christendom's core Bible verse, John 3:16, assumes that humans
can choose what they believe. "For God so loved the world that He
gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not
perish but have eternal life." We CAN choose to believe that
John 3:16 is the truth and get the gift of eternal life ~ or we can
choose not to believe John 3:16 is true and get John 3:16's
perish.

"choose you this day" , , ,

"And if it seems evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day
whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served
that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites,
in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve
the LORD." Joshua 24:15

This also involved consciously choosing what one would believe. There
was a set of beliefs behind them choosing to serve the Lord.

Human Sin and the desire to protect that sin and to continue to sin,
is the father of the notion that beliefs cannot be consciously chosen.

When a person allows themselves to believe that beliefs cannot be
consciously chosen that means they can say to themselves: "Hey I have
no control over what I choose to believe, therefore I will NOT repent of my
sins and believe in God because I know that doing that would require
me to give up my sinning." Here we can list our your most enjoyable
sins that we want to hang on to.

Believing that beliefs cannot be consciously chosen will allow us to keep
on enjoying our favorite sins ~ and THIS, at bottom, is what UNBELIEF is all
about and has ALWAYS been about.

Free Will is heavily assumed throughout the Bible and the entire Bible
is written on the assumption that beliefs CAN be consciously chosen, and
in fact one's eternal destiny is based upon what one chooses to believe.


JAG
 

Oh boy!  Will worship in full flight...

I tell you what, try to believe that the moon is made of green cheese.  Go on, just as an experiment, to see if your claim is true.  Choose to trust in, cling to and rely upon the claim that the moon is made of green cheese.  You should have no problem at all, if you can will your way into having faith in something.

The Bible is very clear about fallen man's heart towards God.

Rom. 8:6-9 (WEB)

6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

1 Cor. 2:14 (WEB) Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Even John 3 refutes your claim, shortly after verse 16 (of course, verse 16 says absolutely NOTHING about the alleged "free" will anyway).

John 3:19,20 (WEB)

19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 
20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 

The unregenerate man, according to the above scriptures:

1) Is hostile towards God (i.e. will NOT trust in him)

2) Cannot please God (faith in Jesus Christ pleases God...)

3) Does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (e.g. the gospel) because he thinks that they are folly

4) Hates the light (i.e. the gospel and the Lord himself)

5) Will NOT come to the light to be saved

There's more!

Rom. 9:14-18 (WEB)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be!
15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 
18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.

God makes it crystal clear that upon whom he chooses to have mercy DOES NOT depend upon man's will.

---So, how does ANYONE ever come to Christ in faith?

John 3:3-8 (WEB)

3 Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew,  he can’t see the Kingdom of God.” 
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” 
5 Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God! 
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
7 Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’ 
8 The wind  blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 

In order to come to Jesus Christ (i.e. enter the kingdom of God) in faith, we MUST be born again first.  This is a gracious gift from God, given to whom he will, not based upon fallen man's will or works.

Here is the result of having been born again.

John 3:21 (WEB) But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” 

[JAG**]

8 hours ago, David1701 said:

Oh boy!  Will worship in full flight...

I tell you what, try to believe that the moon is made of green cheese.  Go on, just as an experiment, to see if your claim is true.  Choose to trust in, cling to and rely upon the claim that the moon is made of green cheese.  You should have no problem at all, if you can will your way into having faith in something.

The Bible is very clear about fallen man's heart towards God.

Rom. 8:6-9 (WEB)

6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

1 Cor. 2:14 (WEB) Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Even John 3 refutes your claim, shortly after verse 16 (of course, verse 16 says absolutely NOTHING about the alleged "free" will anyway).

John 3:19,20 (WEB)

19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 
20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 

The unregenerate man, according to the above scriptures:

1) Is hostile towards God (i.e. will NOT trust in him)

2) Cannot please God (faith in Jesus Christ pleases God...)

3) Does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (e.g. the gospel) because he thinks that they are folly

4) Hates the light (i.e. the gospel and the Lord himself)

5) Will NOT come to the light to be saved

There's more!

Rom. 9:14-18 (WEB)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be!
15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 
18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.

God makes it crystal clear that upon whom he chooses to have mercy DOES NOT depend upon man's will.

---So, how does ANYONE ever come to Christ in faith?

John 3:3-8 (WEB)

3 Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew,  he can’t see the Kingdom of God.” 
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” 
5 Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God! 
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
7 Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’ 
8 The wind  blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 

In order to come to Jesus Christ (i.e. enter the kingdom of God) in faith, we MUST be born again first.  This is a gracious gift from God, given to whom he will, not based upon fallen man's will or works.

Here is the result of having been born again.

John 3:21 (WEB) But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” 

Thank you  for your comments.

You stick with that up there. ↑

And I will stick with this down here ↓

"We cannot consciously choose what we believe."__ Internet Poster

The Bible specifically contradicts and repudiates that claim.

Christendom's core Bible verse, John 3:16, assumes that humans
can choose what they believe. "For God so loved the world that He
gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not
perish but have eternal life." We CAN choose to believe that
John 3:16 is the truth and get the gift of eternal life ~ or we can
choose not to believe John 3:16 is true and get John 3:16's
perish.

"choose you this day" , , ,

"And if it seems evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day
whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served
that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites,
in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve
the LORD." Joshua 24:15

Best 

 

JAG

 

 

``

 

[David1701]

2 hours ago, JAG** said:

Thank you  for your comments.

You stick with that up there. ↑

And I will stick with this down here ↓"We cannot consciously choose what we believe."__ Internet Poster

The Bible specifically contradicts and repudiates that claim.

Christendom's core Bible verse, John 3:16, assumes that humans
can choose what they believe. "For God so loved the world that He
gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not
perish but have eternal life." We CAN choose to believe that
John 3:16 is the truth and get the gift of eternal life ~ or we can
choose not to believe John 3:16 is true and get John 3:16's
perish.

John 3:16 says nothing about choosing.  It also says nothing about faith being generated by fallen man's choice.  It also does not say that anyone can choose to believe that John 3:16 is the truth.  Eternal life also does not come by mere acceptance that John 3:16 is true - that would be mental assent to facts, not faith in Jesus Christ.

You have only demonstrated that you do not understand John 3:16, faith, or the way of salvation.

Quote

 

"choose you this day" , , ,

"And if it seems evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day
whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served
that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites,
in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve
the LORD." Joshua 24:15

Best 

JAG

 

Joshua 24:15 is a sarcastic exhortation, to Israel under law, to choose between two sets of idols, if they are unwilling to serve the LORD.

It is nothing to do with salvation by grace, through faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Your use of this verse, again demonstrates a lack of understanding of faith, or the way of salvation.

 

 

[Sower]

8 hours ago, David1701 said:

Oh boy!  Will worship in full flight...

I tell you what, try to believe that the moon is made of green cheese.  Go on, just as an experiment, to see if your claim is true.  Choose to trust in, cling to and rely upon the claim that the moon is made of green cheese.  You should have no problem at all, if you can will your way into having faith in something.

The Bible is very clear about fallen man's heart towards God.

Rom. 8:6-9 (WEB)

6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

1 Cor. 2:14 (WEB) Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Even John 3 refutes your claim, shortly after verse 16 (of course, verse 16 says absolutely NOTHING about the alleged "free" will anyway).

John 3:19,20 (WEB)

19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 
20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 

The unregenerate man, according to the above scriptures:

1) Is hostile towards God (i.e. will NOT trust in him)

2) Cannot please God (faith in Jesus Christ pleases God...)

3) Does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (e.g. the gospel) because he thinks that they are folly

4) Hates the light (i.e. the gospel and the Lord himself)

5) Will NOT come to the light to be saved

There's more!

Rom. 9:14-18 (WEB)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be!
15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 
18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.

God makes it crystal clear that upon whom he chooses to have mercy DOES NOT depend upon man's will.

---So, how does ANYONE ever come to Christ in faith?

John 3:3-8 (WEB)

3 Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew,  he can’t see the Kingdom of God.” 
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” 
5 Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God! 
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
7 Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’ 
8 The wind  blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 

In order to come to Jesus Christ (i.e. enter the kingdom of God) in faith, we MUST be born again first.  This is a gracious gift from God, given to whom he will, not based upon fallen man's will or works.

Here is the result of having been born again.

John 3:21 (WEB) But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” 

Just curious as to what you believe David. Does God in his Mercy Grant everyone the faith to believe, are only a select few?

[David1701]

57 minutes ago, Sower said:

Just curious as to what you believe David. Does God in his Mercy Grant everyone the faith to believe, are only a select few?

If God granted everyone faith in Jesus Christ, then, by definition, everyone would have faith in him.  The Bible does not say that God grants a mere ability to have faith in Jesus, but that God gives actual faith (and repentance).

2 Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have been allotted the same kind of precious faith with us, in the righteousness of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ:

Phil. 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Thess. 3:2 (EMTV) and that we may be delivered from evil and wicked men; for not all have faith.

2 Tim. 2:25,26 (EMTV)

25 in meekness instructing those that oppose, if God perhaps may give them repentance, to a full knowledge of the truth,
26 and they regain their senses and escape out of the snare of the devil, having been captured alive by him to do his will. 

 

[Hopefully]

““There may come a time when I will speak about a nation or a kingdom that I will pull up by its roots or tear down and destroy it. But if the people of that nation change their hearts and lives and stop doing evil things, I will change my mind and not bring on them the disaster I planned.
 

There may come another time when I speak about a nation that I will build up or plant. But if I see that nation doing evil things and not obeying me, I will think again about the good I had planned to do for them.

“So, Jeremiah, say to the people of Judah and those who live in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am the potter preparing troubles for you and making plans against you. So stop doing the evil things you are doing. Each person must change and start doing good.’ But the people of Judah will answer, ‘We don’t care what you say. We will continue to do what we want. We will do the evil our stubborn hearts want.’””
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭18:7-12‬ ‭

[Hopefully]

““So, son of man, speak to the family of Israel for me. They might say, ‘We have sinned and broken the law. Our sins are too heavy to bear. We rot away because of them. What can we do to live?’ “You must say to them, ‘The Lord GOD says: By my life, I swear that I don’t enjoy seeing people die—not even evil people! I don’t want them to die. I want them to come back to me. I want them to change their lives so that they can really live. So come back to me! Stop doing bad things! Why must you die, family of Israel?’
 

“Son of man, tell your people: ‘The good things people did in the past will not save them if they become bad and begin to sin. In the same way the bad things people did in the past will not destroy them if they turn from their evil. So remember, the good things people did in the past will not save them if they begin to sin.’

“Maybe I will tell good people that they will live. But maybe those good people will begin to think that the good things they did in the past will save them. So they might begin to do bad things, but I will not remember the good things they did in the past! No, they will die because of the bad things they begin to do.

“Or maybe I will tell some evil people that they will die. But they might change their lives, stop sinning, and begin to live right. They might become good and fair. They might give back the things they took when they loaned money. They might pay for the things they stole. They might begin to follow the laws that give life and stop doing bad things. Then they will surely live. They will not die. I will not remember the bad things they did in the past, because now they live right and are fair. So they will live!

“But your people say, ‘That’s not fair! The Lord cannot be like that!’ “But they are the people who are not fair! They are the people who must change! If good people stop doing good and begin to sin, they will die because of their sins. And if evil people stop doing wrong and start living right and being fair, they will live.

You still say that I am not fair, but I am telling you the truth. Family of Israel, everyone will be judged for what they do!””
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭33:10-20‬ 

[JAG**]

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

John 3:16 says nothing about choosing.  It also says nothing about faith being generated by fallen man's choice.  It also does not say that anyone can choose to believe that John 3:16 is the truth.  Eternal life also does not come by mere acceptance that John 3:16 is true - that would be mental assent to facts, not faith in Jesus Christ.

You have only demonstrated that you do not understand John 3:16, faith, or the way of salvation.

Joshua 24:15 is a sarcastic exhortation, to Israel under law, to choose between two sets of idols, if they are unwilling to serve the LORD.

It is nothing to do with salvation by grace, through faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Your use of this verse, again demonstrates a lack of understanding of faith, or the way of salvation.

 

 

You can live in your world and I will live in my world.

John 3:16 demands a choice and its 100% absurd to pretend otherwise.

 

Best Regards.

JAG

 

 

``

[LearningToLetGo]

13 hours ago, JAG** said:

We CAN choose to believe that
John 3:16 is the truth and get the gift of eternal life ~ or we can
choose not to believe John 3:16 is true and get John 3:16's
perish.

If your position is that we can choose to believe then I think you are wrong. However, if your position is we can choose to try to believe then I agree. In fact, I think choosing to try is essential because that is how we begin to reach out to God. It is the first step in our journey. Faith keeps us coming back. Faith tells us not to give up, to continue trying. Belief -- that feeling in your bones that God is with you -- is the result of trying. It is the result of faithful execution. It is feedback from God that we are on the right path. It's not the first step in the journey. How can it be otherwise?