The Need for a Future Millennium

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to all.

In the previous post, I noted the beginning of the Messiah's offer of the Kingdom to the children of Israel, particularly the tribe of Yhudah.

His offer culminated in the ride into Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) "upon the donkey, the foal of a donkey."

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." (Zechariah 9:9)

Yochanan the disciple said, "On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, 'Hosanna! (Hebrew: Howshi`aah naa'! = "Save us, now!"; Psalm 118:25) : Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord!' And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, 'Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.'

"These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

"The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record. For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.

"The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, 'Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him!'" (John 12:12-19)

In the other three accounts, that of Matittyahuw haLeviy, Yochanan Markus (probably writing for Kefa or Peter), and the physician Lukas, we learn how Yeshua` sent ahead a couple of His disciples to procure the jenny donkey and her colt. (Matthew 21:1-5; Mark 11:1-6; Luke 19:29-34.) Then, He rode into Yerushalayim. (Matthew 21:6-11; Mark 11:7-11; Luke 19:35-40.)

A significant part was recorded in Luke:

"And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, 'Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord (Blessed is the coming of the King in the name [authority] of YHWH!): peace in heaven (in the sky), and glory in the highest!'

"And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, 'Master, rebuke thy disciples!' ('Oh! Bawl them out for saying that!') And he answered and said unto them, 'I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out!' ('I can't stop what was predicted to come true!')" (Luke 19:37-40.)

Then, the P'rushiym ("Separatists," Pharisees) and the scribes (the transcribers of the Tanakh or the Old Testament), who had it out for Him from the beginning, lamblasted Him with accusations of performing miracles by the power of Ba'al-zebub, Lord of flies (or Ba'al-zebul, Lord of dung), a pagan god. They attacked Him a couple of times, but Yeshua` managed to avoid their attacks, and finally, He accused them, while they were standing there, to His disciples and the crowd at large. (Matthew 23:1-37.)

Knowing what was coming next, He promised them,

"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'" (Matthew 23:38-39). This was a direct quote from Psalm 118:26: "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD."

So, for them to be able to fulfill this prophecy, they must first have a "house of the LORD," or a "beeyt YHWH," and this is what the children of Israel called the Temple. Indeed, the next verse in Psalm 118, verse 27, confirms this:

"God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar."

The second Temple, the Temple of Zerubbabel, later enhanced by Herod, was at an end. When they crucified their King, Pilate wouldn't let them forget that they were the ones who demanded they crucified their King. When the accusation was written above His head, it read "This is Yeshua` from Nazareth, the King of the Jews." It was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, so all could read it. (Matthew 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19-22.)

When Yeshua` died, the veil in the Temple, between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies, was ripped in two from the top to the bottom, signifying that the High Priest's job was done. (Matthew 27:50-51.) No longer would he be responsible for bringing the blood of sacrifices into the Holy of Holies continually. The Ultimate Sacrifice had been made at the same time that they were slaughtering the lambs for the Pesach or Passover feast, which began that evening when the sun went down, and the first three stars were visible.

To be sure that no one was left alive on a cross at sundown, the start of the new 24-hour day, starting with the "evening" and then the "morning,"

"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation (for Passover), that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day [day of rest] was an high day [an extra sabbath in the week],) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it (probably Yochanan himself) bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled,

'A bone of him shall not be broken.' (Psalm 34:20 cf. Exodus 12:46 and Numbers 9:12.)

And again another scripture saith,

'They shall look on him whom they pierced.' (Zechariah 12:10.)" (John 19:31-37.) 

(Next, "The King is dead; long live the King!") 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

Well.... let's look at those two texts, shall we? 

2 Samuel 7:8-17
"Now therefore, thus you shall say to My servant David, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people Israel.  I have been with you wherever you have gone and have cut off all your enemies from before you; and I will make you a great name, like the names of the great men who are on the earth.  I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly, even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. The LORD also declares to you that the LORD will make a house for you.  "When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant (SEED) after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.  He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.  I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, but My lovingkindness (Hebrew: checed = "covenant-keeping love") shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.  Your house (, David,) and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.' In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David." 

Luke 1:30-33
"And the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.  And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.  He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High (GOD). And the Lord God (YHWH Elohiym) will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign (this IMPLIES a King!) over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

Not a single mention of Jesus as a king on earth. Not a single word about Jesus anointed to king of Israel. The word "king" doesn't actually occur anywhere in either passage!!!!!

Hi, Josheb.

One should NOT try too hard to deny the obvious! 

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

The word kingdom is spoken, not king. Now I might be asked, "How can a kingdom exist without a king?" and the point of the question would be well taken but the claim is what you know from these two passages is that Jesus is anointed king of Israel when in fact all either passage says is that there will [be] no end to his kingdom.

Well, let's break this down and think about it rationally:

One should know that Ya`aqoV ("Jacob") was later renamed Yisra'eel ("Israel"). Thus, Jacob = Israel. So, it follows that the "house of Jacob" would be the "house of Israel."

So, if He shall "reign over the house of Jacob forever," then it follows that "He shall reign over the house of Israel forever." Isn't it interesting that He doesn't talk about Him ruling over any nation? There's a difference between "reigning" and "ruling" in Hebrew: "To reign" (malaakh) means "to become a king or a queen." "To rule"  (maashal) means "to govern a domain." This also carries over into the Greek: "To reign" is "basileuoo" meaning "I shall reign as king." "To rule" is "poimainoo" meaning "I shall shepherd," treating "shepherd" as a verb. The noun in Hebrew is "melekh" meaning "a king." The noun in Greek is "basileus" meaning "a king."

The word for "his kingdom" in 2 Samuel 7:12 is "mamlakhtow." The "ma-" prefix means "with"; the root word is "mlakh"; and the "-tow" suffix is masculine singular implying possession, "his." Guess to which family of words "mlakh" belongs, remembering that vowels are more flexible in Hebrew than are consonants. Thus, a "kingdom" is "with a-king."

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

Jesus quite plainly stated 1) his kingdom is not of this world,

The word there is "kosmos" meaning a "political system," not "gee" meaning the "earth." He wasn't saying that His kingdom was off-earth! He was saying that the caliber of His kingdom would be much different than Pilate experienced.

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

2) the kingdom of God had already come to earth in the gospel era,

The God's Kingdom came with the King-apparent (haMashiyach). When they rejected the King-apparent and did not anoint Him as their King, God's Kingdom was also rejected by default. It didn't STAY on the earth, since neither did the King-apparent!

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

and 3) he was king of Israel before he hung on the cross. 

Oho! Where did you get that tidbit? Not from Scripture, I'd guess. No, He was NOT King of Israel at any time during the offer of the Kingdom to Israel. He was only haMashiyach Elohiym, the Messiah of God, God's King APPARENT, just as David was anointed by God to be Israel's king-apparent long before the people anointed him to be king!

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

How can anyone claim to know something from scripture when the scriptures upon which that knowledge is based don't actually say what is claimed to be known? 

Dig deeper.

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

The nation of Israel is God's chosen people before the body of Christ and God will do as he pleases with His chosen that were instructed in the law even if they are in unbelief  and nothing will change that fact.

Shalom, Cntrysner.

Which fact? The fact where "God will do as He pleases with His chosen" or the fact that "they are in unbelief"?

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

I don't read anything about God not wanting Israel to have a king. Is that something you know from scripture? 

1 Samuel 8:4-22
"Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; and they said to him, 'Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations.'  But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, 'Give us a king to judge us.' And Samuel prayed to the LORD.  The LORD said to Samuel, 'Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.  Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day—in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also.  Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall solemnly warn them and tell them of the procedure of the king who will reign over them.'"  

"So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who had asked of him a king.  He said, 'This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots.  He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.  He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers.  He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give them to his servants.  He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants.  He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use them for his work.  He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants.  Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.'" 

"Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and they said, 'No, but there shall be a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations, that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.'  Now after Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the LORD'S hearing.  The LORD said to Samuel, 'Listen to their voice and appoint them a king.' So Samuel said to the men of Israel, 'Go every man to his city.'"

Hi, Josheb.

No, and do you know why? It's because it is now a done-deal. God may not have wanted Israel to have a king (God's will) but He KNEW they would have one (God's plan), because He has "declared the end from the beginning." (Isaiah 46:10.)

Besides, it initiated the background necessary for the birth of the Messiah through David the king.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

The request for a king was displeasing to God. 
The request for a king was an act of rejection; they had rejected God from being king over them. 
The request for a king was a forsaking of God. 

At the time, yes. Now that they had a king, God has other demands for a king and other demands on Israel on behalf of His king! The fact that God didn't want Israel to have a king is in the past; it's history. But, God KNEW they would have one; so, why not make that the BEST King possible?! Hence, we have the predictions for and the birth of the MESSIAH Yeshua`!

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

These are some of the things the scriptures say. 

• Do you know from scripture where scripture states Jesus was anointed king over Israel?

No, because there isn't one. Yeshua` was NOT anointed king over Israel.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you know from scripture who was king over Israel prior to Saul? 

Yes, YHWH God Himself was their King. 1 Samuel 8:7.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

• Do you know from scripture why God acted contrary to His own stated beliefs and values and anointed for Israel a king like the other nations when he'd expressly stated He did not want them to have a king and took their request to be a rejection of Him? Why did God collaborate with and facilitate that rejection by anointing a king?

 

No, and neither does anyone else. There is CONJECTURE, but He said at the time,

1 Samuel 8:7-9 (KJV)

7 And the LORD said unto Samuel,

"Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. 9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them."

My conjecture is that He didn't want them to have a human king because it introduced a sinful, fallible human into the equation. I believe He gave them a king because, through that king, He would send His Son to be their ULTIMATE HUMAN King, thereby re-introducing YHWH God permanently into the role of Israel's King, because Yeshua` never did anything but what He heard His Father say to do.

That's my conjecture, and it fits the facts, IMO.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

• Do you know from scripture how God's NOT wanting Israel to have a king influences the reading of scriptures where the Messiah is said to be king or ruler, authority, etc.? 

 

No, because I believe you're superimposing that idea on the facts.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

• Do you know from scripture when Jesus became king over Israel? 

 

No, because there's no such Scripture.

[Cntrysner]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Cntrysner.

Which fact? The fact where "God will do as He pleases with His chosen" or the fact that "they are in unbelief"?

Both. God chooses us all in unbelief. None are chosen any different than Paul who persecuted Christ and His body.

Act 9:12  And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 
Act 9:13  Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 
Act 9:14  And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 
Act 9:15  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 
Act 9:16  For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.Act 9:17  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

God chose the nation of Israel and he blinded them as he did Saul but we must not forget that God chooses whom He will and none will be lost that he chose from all humanity even if it takes a millennium. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Cntrysner

[DeighAnn]

1  Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH. 

 

Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

Mark 13:34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Mark 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:



Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Zechariah 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Zechariah 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.


Ezekiel 43:1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:

Ezekiel 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

Ezekiel 43:3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

Ezekiel 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

Ezekiel 43:5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.

Ezekiel 43:6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Ezekiel 43:8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.

Ezekiel 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

Ezekiel 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Ezekiel 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Ezekiel 43:12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.


Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

Nahum 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Nahum 1:4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.

Nahum 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Nahum 1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Nahum 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

Nahum 1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

Nahum 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Nahum 1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Nahum 1:11 There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.

Nahum 1:12 Thus saith the LORD; Though they be quiet, and likewise many, yet thus shall they be cut down, when he shall pass through. Though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more.

Nahum 1:13 For now will I break his yoke from off thee, and will burst thy bonds in sunder.

Nahum 1:14 And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.

Nahum 1:15 Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.

Micah 1:3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

Micah 1:4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

 

Joel 3:7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:

Joel 3:8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Joel 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

Joel 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

Joel 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

Joel 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

Joel 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Joel 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Joel 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Joel 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

Joel 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

Joel 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

Joel 3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

 

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

Forty-three pages of dissent from more than one poster is evidence there is no such warrant. Very few of the scriptures appealed to in support of this op were read as written and very little of the exegesis built first from what is stated. It was acknowledged many pages ago that this opinion is unique and very, very different even from the historical views of Historical Premillennialism and similar in some fundamental ways to the Darbyism most of us - including you - reject! 

Hi, Josheb.

Apparently, we still have a long way to go to achieve unity in thought, since we still can't seem to get on the same page.

We've bled over into the 44th page now, but we're still at odds on the basics. Yes, my view is different than the Historical Premillennialism (although I'm closer to that than any other position), and there may be some similarities to Darbyism, because, let's face it: Darby saw something important in the Scriptures that others were ignoring. He formed his system of viewpoints, I believe, partially on Scripture and partially in opposition to the standard theological viewpoints.

I'm not doing that. Despite where I began, I threw everything out and started from scratch at the age of 20, except for two things: First, I believed in God and His Son, Jesus Christ, whom I had already met and accepted as my "Savior." I clung to Him as my lifeboat in a time of distress. Second, I accepted that the Bible was indeed God's Word to mankind. It would make sense that God, being real and wanting human beings to love Him, would want to communicate with them, and the written word would be ideal over centuries of time. That was my anchor to secure myself during a rage of change and transition in my life. I was in my second year of Bible college, and my world was falling apart.

One by one, I re-analyzed everything I thought I believed in, to be sure it was both biblical and agreed with those things I had already found I could believe in. Every new step had to be in sync with those two things. Old definitions would sometimes hold, but often I found that they had to be rejected for something better. Definitions that one has built other thoughts upon are hard to change. It's like changing the support of a building! Sometimes, the transition could be made flawlessly, but most of the time a huge section of the building would collapse, and I'd be starting over again in that area.

I'm 64 now, and so, for 44 years, I've been working on a re-structuring of a knowledge base. Everything has to fit for me to believe in it, and God has guided me to new definitions and new thoughts I wouldn't have entertained before; so, I'm not unaccustomed to change. There have been times I've had to throw out whole systems of beliefs and start over from scratch, again, in that area.

One of those definitions I've learned to change was the practical, theological definition of "salvation." "Salvation" is really the wrong word for one's personal relationship to God, and it flavors a context differently when used correctly. I'm not talking about the simple definitions of a word; I'm talking about the practical, daily used, detailed definitions that people apply to a word in various situations and during normal conversation. For instance, I'm not talking about "to save" meaning "to rescue or deliver"; I'm talking about all the adjectives and adverbs and phrases that one may attach to their own personal definition, like "to deliver a person from God's wrath and hell and make him or her a candidate for Heaven."

I've come to formulate a law: The more detailed a definition is, the less applicable it is; and, the less detailed a definition is, the more applicable it is.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

There is no need to make eschatological inferences about a simple statement of what was then an historical fact. It is an opinion that such inferences are needed. There is no need to make eschatological inferences about the historical fact that at that moment in the first century that the gospel had been preached first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. It is soteriological, not eschatological. 

And, here, we have a poor definition of "soteriological" which stems from the Greek words "sooteeria," meaning "salvation," and "logos," meaning "word" or "subject." 

A good example of what "sooteeria" means is found in 2 Corinthians 6:2:

2 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV)

2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

This is a quotation from Isaiah 49:8. Look at it in context:

Isaiah 49:1-13 (KJV)

1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me,

"Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

4 Then I said,

"I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God."

5 "And now," saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, "Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength."

6 And he said,

"It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation (Hebrew: yeeshuwaa`tiy = "my Yeshua`") unto the end of the earth."

7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel (YHWH God), and his Holy One (the Messiah), to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers,

"Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee."

8 Thus saith the LORD,

"In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation (Hebrew: yshuw`aah = "rescue; deliverance; salvation") have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth (the Land), to cause to inherit the desolate (emptied) heritages; 9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, 'Go forth!'; to them that are in darkness, 'Shew yourselves!' They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. 10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. 11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted."

12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. 13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

It's not about "rescuing one individually from his or her sins"; it's about "rescuing His people from the lands all around" and bringing them back to their Land!

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

Romans 1:1-17
"Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,  which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,  concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,  who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,  through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,  among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;  to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.  For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you, always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you.  For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established; that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine.  I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.  I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.  So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'But the righteous man shall live by faith.'" 

And, what is the first thing you think of when you read "it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek"? How do you define the word "salvation?" I'm telling you, if you think it's about one's personal relationship with God, you've missed the point.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

There isn't a single word in the entire chapter about end times!

There is, if you have the right definitions of "salvation" and "gospel!" However, most Christians today don't know what they're talking about! Paul's "gospel" was the SAME as Yeshua`s "gospel," but Yeshua`s "gospel" was about His Kingdom coming, not the "death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah." And, Paul didn't change the definition of "gospel" in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; he ENHANCED it! He added to the "gospel of Yeshua`" with the fact that the Messiah died, was buried, and rose again! After all, Paul's message of 1 Corinthians 15 was the RESURRECTION!

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

The passage itself plainly states the gospel is soteriological; it is the power of God for salvation.  There is no scripture providing sufficient evidence to contradict what is plainly stated or what was an already-existing fact of history. 

Again, how do you define "salvation" and "soteriological?" If you're using it in a way that is foreign to the prophecies of the Tanakh - the Bible that Yeshua` grew up with - then you're not using the right definition.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

And beside that point, the text is another example of how both Jew and Greek are one people in Christ, not two.

This is an important point that should be explored deeper:

When Paul said, 

Ephesians 2:11-18 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by that which is called the "Circumcision" in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were (1) without Christ, (2) being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and (3) strangers from the covenants of promise, (4) having no hope, and (5) without God in the world: 

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both (Circumcision and Uncircumcision) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

He actually noted THREE groups of people:
(1) Gentiles outside of the Messiah,
(2) children of Israel outside of the Messiah, and
(3) the "one new man" in the Messiah Yeshua`.

So, it's right to say, "in Christ we are 'one new man.'" However, OUTSIDE of the Messiah - OUTSIDE of the Christ - there's still a difference between Gentiles and the children of Israel.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

Even when Paul proceeds to speak about the wrath of God (it is sin and wrath from which we are being saved, soteriologically speaking), he does so in the context of historical fact: Just as his salvation is available to all, so to is His wrath revealed upon all unrighteousness.  God-deniers have all already had their hearts darkened and their thinking made futile and God has already handed them over to their lusts and that is true just as much for the Jew as it is the Greek. 

There's not an end-times word in the entire chapter.  

Again, it depends on how one defines "salvation" and "soteriologically."

Something that you should consider is this: Another definition that is VERY important is that of "holiness." "To be holy" doesn't mean "to be righteous." They are not the same concept at all! "To be holy" is a word that means "to be cleansed and set apart" for God. It's its own dichotomy. One can be holy or unholy just like one can be righteous or unrighteous; however, they are on different and perpendicular axes. The gives us four combinations:
(1) one can be holy and righteous;
(2) one can be holy and unrighteous;
(3) one can be unholy and righteous; or
(4) one can be unholy and unrighteous.

The children of Israel were holy; God set them apart for His own purposes. They were cleansed literally with water, through circumcision, and through the blood of the sacrifices in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple.

The Gentiles were unholy; that is, God didn't deal with them as though they were special for any reason. All the other nations of the earth fell into this category.

Technically, one can be righteous in two different ways: One can make right choices, following God's Law, throughout one's lifetime, or one can be declared "righteous" by God. Paul in Romans showed us that, practically and experientially,  no one can make right choices throughout one's lifetime; therefore, there's really only ONE way that one can be righteous; one must be declared "righteous" by God. To be otherwise is to be unrighteous.

Paul showed us that the majority of the children of Israel, even to this day, fall into the "holy and unrighteous" (2) category when he said,

Romans 11:28 (KJV)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies (unrighteous) for your sakes: but as touching the election (the choosing), they are beloved (holy) for the fathers' sakes.

One should dig deeper about the difference between holiness and righteousness.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

Romans 2:9-16
"There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For there is no partiality with God.  For all who have sinned without (outside of) the Law will also perish without (outside of ) the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.  For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

Even tribulation is experienced by all who do evil, doesn't matter whether they are Jew or Gentiles. 

If you will notice the part I highlighted above, "when Gentiles who do not have the Law (this includes tribes around the world who have never heard of Yeshua` the Messiah) do instinctively the things of the Law, these not having the Law, are a law to themselves." In other words, they will attempt to be righteous, despite being unholy, and they will be judged according to their adherence to their own instinctive law.

And, this is DEFINITELY eschatological in the statement, "on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

1 Corinthians 1:20-25
"Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?  For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.  For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.  Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

 

In these three passages Paul has referenced at least four different OT prophets (David, Ezekiel, Amos, and Habakkuk) and the history of Second Chronicles. Even were we to say this was eschatological it was prophesy coming true in Paul's day, in the first century, the NT era, not the 21st. 

Not eschatological. 

Sure it is. One just needs to read farther! For instance, the eschatological viewpoint is found, starting in 1 Corinthians 2:9. Remember: chapter and verse numbers are not inspired. The whole letter was written at one time and was meant to be read in its entirety to the church to which it was addressed.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

It is your opinion that "to the Jew first and also to the Greek," is eschatological and there is not enough scriptural evidence to warrant such an opinion. 

That depends on where one is looking and what one expects to find while looking.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

Can you show me where the scriptures state there are two new covenants or where we can expect God to provide a third new one? 

Sorry, but, to me, this isn't a real question; it's not valid. I don't know why one would think that there were "two new covenants" or a "third new one." Or, perhaps the betterr question would be, "Why would one think that I suggested there would be two or three new covenants?"

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you know when who was king of Israel before Saul? 

Jesus is God. 

Then why did "Jesus" PRAY and TALK to God, even when alone? They say that when one talks to himself, it's a possible sign of schizophrenia! What do you think?

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you know from scripture when Jesus became king over Israel?

The evidence of scripture says otherwise. 

Matthew 2:1-2
 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

Matthew 27:11
 Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" And Jesus said to him, "It is as you say." 

Mark 15:2
 Pilate questioned Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" And He *answered him, "It is as you say."

John 18:33-37
 Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?"  Jesus answered, "Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?"  Pilate answered, "I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?"  Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."  Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." 

John 19:21
 So the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews'; but that He said, 'I am King of the Jews.'"

Sorry, but being called the "King of the Jews" doesn't mean that He was accepted as the King of the Jews, and it certainly doesn't mean "King of Israel!" Yhudah or Judah is just one tribe. Israel refers to all 12 tribes (or 13, counting Leviy) of Israel.

There's a difference between a "Jew" and a "child of Israel," although the set of "children of Israel" contains the subset of "Jews." All "Jews" are "children of Israel," but not all "children of Israel" are "Jews."

Furthermore, who accepted Him in that role, even as the "King of the Jews?" It's quite certain that the elders of Yhudah didn't accept Him in that role!

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

John 1:48-51
 Nathanael *said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."  Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."  Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these."  And He said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." 

John 12:12-13
 On the next day the large crowd who had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took the branches of the palm trees and went out to meet Him, and began to shout, "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD, even the King of Israel." 

Recognizing that He had the right to be "the King of Israel," doesn't mean that He actually had that role. To the contrary, if the religious leaders and the elders of Yhudah wouldn't accept Him as the "King of the Jews," then they CERTAINLY wouldn't have accepted Him as the "King of Israel." Who was Nathanael? Who were the disciples? They had no authority to anoint Yeshua` as the King, even if they recognized Him as the rightful heir of David to that role! It had to be the RULERS of the nation who accepted Him, but they did NOT!

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Plenty of scripture teaching Jesus was king of Israel, king of the Jews prior to Calvary and one of them plainly states he was born king. 

• Jesus is already king of Israel. 

Nope. That's not true.

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

• Jesus is already enthroned. 

Nope. That's not true either, and it's because He is NOT already enthroned that His future Kingdom is needed, which begins shortly before the Millennium.

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

• Jesus will be seated at God's right hand on his Father throne until his Father makes a footstool of all his enemies, the last of which will be death.

This is partially right IF one understands what it means to be seated on the right hand side of His Father's throne. He's not reigning with His Father; He's in a seat of honor NEXT TO His Father's throne! He's on His Father's DAIS! It might get somewhat crowded if He's in His Father's throne with His Father and with those who overcome and are seated with Him!

One must also consider passages like Matthew 19:28; 25:31; Luke 19:12, 15, and Luke 22:30.

Matthew 19:28 (KJV)

28 And Jesus said unto them,

"Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:..."

Luke 19:11-15a (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, 'Occupy till I come.' 14 But his citizens (the Pharisees and religious leaders) hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, 'We will not have this man to reign over us!' 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded..."

Luke 22:29-30 (KJV)

29 "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

 

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

• Neither 2 Samuel 7 nor Luke 1 say Jesus will be an earthly king over Israel. 

This is just denial. We've been through this, and you're still not getting it!

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

• God did not want Israel to have a king like that of all other nations; His kingdom is not of this world even when it is on this earth. 

And, we've been through this, as well! God gave the nation of Israel a "man after God's own heart," David the king, and through David came the ancestors of Yeshua` the Messiah, to become the ULTIMATE King of Israel.

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

And yet every single scripture I have quoted, cited, or referenced so far plainly states exactly what I posted without my having to add, subtract, or "interpret" any of it. Comparatively speaking this is the exact opposite of what I have received. 

No. Sorry, but that's not true. What's really going on is a denial of what was clearly written because it doesn't happen to match what you believe. That's fine, but face the fact that it's just simply RESISTANCE.

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

2 Samuel 7 and Luke 1 don't state what you say the say. I am not the one superimposing. 

It's just like Acts 2. If one can't see what's really going on, then "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, @DeighAnn

LOL! Your posts are starting to look like mine! Isn't it wonderful that we have so many Scripture passages to quote?

Thanks!

[DeighAnn]

11 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @DeighAnn

LOL! Your posts are starting to look like mine! Isn't it wonderful that we have so many Scripture passages to quote?

Thanks!

Hi Retro,

 It is hard to understand how we are all reading the same book sometimes with things that seems to be so simple made so complicated.

Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand....

right here on earth.  And if they had repented that Kingdom would have been right here on earth.  And He is descending as he ascended.  Shoot, even  the New Jerusalem is coming down to be on earth.  I don't get it. 

You are a patient man that's for sure.  Anyway, I will go back to just observing except for a tidbit every now and again as I don't want to derail the conversation.  Keep up the good work.  Makes me want to debate with you.  I know we stand on different sides of something just don't remember what it is...

Any way keep up the good work.  I am hoping to someday be able to approach like you do but it is still so elusive at this point but I keep on trying and learning from others like you,  so thank you for that too
 

d