The Need for a Future Millennium

[David1701]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, David1701.

You REALLY should stop using that verse that way! That's NOT what is meant by what Yeshua` said TO THE PHARISEES in Luke 17:21. Please, look at it carefully in context:

Luke 17:20-25 (KJV)

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation (Greek: parateereeseoos = "careful watching"): 21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here (it is)!' or, 'lo there (it is)!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you!"

22 And he said unto the disciples,

"The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, 'See here (He is)!'; or, 'see there (He is)!': go not after them, nor follow them! 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation."

The Greek of verse 21 is ...

21 "οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν ‘Ἰδοὺ ὧδε’ ἤ ‘Ἐκεῖ·’ ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν.”

Transliterated, this becomes,

21 "oude erousin, 'Idou hoode!' ee 'Ekei!' idou gar hee baslileia tou Theou entos humoon estin."

21 "oude = "but-not; nor
erousin, = will-they-say,
'Idou = 'Look!
hoode!' = here-[it-is]!'
ee = or
'Ekei!' = 'There-[it-is]!'
idou = look!
gar = for
hee = the
baslileia = kingdom
tou = of-the
Theou = God
entos = among/within
humoon = you-plural
estin." = is."

He wasn't talking to any one person; He was talking to the GROUP of Pharisees, not each of them nor any one of them! Furthermore, why would He tell the PHARISEES that the "kingdom of God was within THEM?!" No, the better word choice for this sentence is to use the word "among" for entos. The Kingdom of God WAS "among the Pharisees," because HE was "among the Pharisees!" The Kingdom of God is INTIMATELY tied to the One Anointed to be the King!

When He DID talk to His disciples, He told them, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. People will tell you that they've seen the Messiah here or there; don't believe them! They're trying to trick you into revealing yourselves so they can kill you!"

Then, He added,

24 "For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. (When the Son of man, Yeshua` the Anointed to be the King of Israel, returns, it's not going to be hidden in some corner somewhere, i.e. it's not going to be "spiritual" or "invisible"; it will be EXTREMELY OBVIOUS, like a lightning flash so bright on one side of the sky lighting up the objects under the opposite side of the sky.) 25 But first must he (Yeshua`, the Son of man) suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 

26 "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage (all normal, everyday activities), until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed themall. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. (When one sees this day come, one shouldn't go back in his house to pack, nor should one who sees this day come go back to get a few things.) 32 Remember Lot's wife. (That is, she turned back and <poof!> she became a pile of chemicals!) 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life (that is, to throw a few things together for survival) shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life (that is, to take off without packing a thing) shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken (captured), and the other shall be left (missed, shall get away). 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken (captured), and the other left (missed, shall get away). 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken (captured), and the other left (missed, shall get away)."

37 And they answered and said unto him,

"Where (will this happen), Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body (the corpse) is, thither (that's where) will the eagles (vultures) be gathered (flock) together." (I.e., wherever you, as the prey, can be found! So, DON'T BE FOUND!)

The Master Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, the Anointed One to be the King of Israel, didn't return in the 1st Century nor any time afterward until today. Therefore, this is still a future event, as will be His Father's Kingdom over Israel, over which He will preside as Israel's visible King, His Father's Representative.

Regarding Luke 17:21,21: in saying to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God does not come with outward appearance, but is within you, Jesus is not saying "within you", but "within you", by way of contrast with outward observation.  The "you" is a generalisation that applies to all who have the kingdom of God within. 

It's also true that the kingdom of God was amongst the people, being within Jesus and the disciples.

The corpse, in Luke 17:37, refers to the dead body of the unbelieving Jewish nation.  There the eagles (the symbol of the Roman army) will be gathered together.  The believing Jews fled from Jerusalem, to the mountains, believing what the Bible says, and were delivered from the 70 A.D. massacre.

 

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

Regarding Luke 17:21,21: in saying to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God does not come with outward appearance, but is within you, Jesus is not saying "within you", but "within you", by way of contrast with outward observation.  The "you" is a generalisation that applies to all who have the kingdom of God within. 

It's also true that the kingdom of God was amongst the people, being within Jesus and the disciples.

The corpse, in Luke 17:37, refers to the dead body of the unbelieving Jewish nation.  There the eagles (the symbol of the Roman army) will be gathered together.  The believing Jews fled from Jerusalem, to the mountains, believing what the Bible says, and were delivered from the 70 A.D. massacre.

 

Hi, David.

This response is so full of nonsense, I don't know where to begin to make corrections. It's best to just throw it out and start again.

When one refuses to see the logic and the FACTS of language, particularly the Greek which is closer to the actual wording Yeshua` used, and opts rather for some pet theological stance one's been taught, then one is not willing to learn.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Still arguing a straw man; and taking an extraordinary amount of space to do so.

Yep. No one has disputed that. All that space spent on something upon which we agree. 

Again, not a point in dispute. If you think Daivd or I are saying something different then the posts were not understood and they need to be read again until they are understood. 
 

Hi, Josheb.

Perhaps. But, to this point, I can't see beyond the simple fact that many Christians make the same mistake about the Kingdom. It is NOT "within each one of us," as it is often claimed. And, it appears that's exactly what you and David are claiming. That's just not what Yeshua` was saying in that verse, and yet, when asked where one gets that viewpoint, one INVARIABLY quotes Yeshua` from this verse!

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yep. Jesus told the Pharisees they would see it, it would happen in their generation, and millions would be taken away in destruction. Clue: The Son of Man had been revealed. Everything he said happened in that day. 

 

Nonsense. They did NOT see the Kingdom revealed in their generation. While they did see the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D., they most certainly did NOT see the Son of man revealed in His coming! That makes me wonder just how much of the Revelation of Yeshua` the Messiah you find to be already fulfilled. His Revelation doesn't happen until He returns, and please believe me and understand: There will be absolutely NO mistake when Yeshua` returns in His glory! If it was enough brightness in a peek when Yeshua` briefly appeared to blind Paul and knock him off his horse on the way to Damascus, in the words of Al Jolson today, "you ain't heard nothing, yet!"

Can't sign off without a quote:

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (KJV)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit (blast) of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Edited December 8, 2021 by Retrobyter
to add Scripture

[DeighAnn]

On 12/7/2021 at 5:47 PM, Josheb said:

There has never been and never will be a time or place where Jesus is not the Lamb. He was foreknown as such, he came as such, manifested that foreknown reality, and is worshiped on his throne as such. 

Does anyone know how the statement above fits with this?  
 

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.


Does the Son become subject unto Him 'that God may be all in all' or not?

[DeighAnn]

Was the rejection of the kingdom kept secret from the OT prophets and not revealed until after the rejection of Christ?

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

No, it was not kept a secret.

That is why it was spoken in parables.  It was not for everyone to see and understand.  Even to this day there are those who can not.  

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

It's the entrance that is future, not the kingdom. Look more closely. The word used for the kingdom is "eternal" is "aiónios" or ageless.

Hi, Josheb.

If the entrance to the Kingdom is future, then it would make sense that the Kingdom itself is also future. The Greek word "aioonion" in the text really means "age-like." It doesn't mean "ageless"; it means "age-long." It's an adjective formed by adding the iota before the accusative "-on" ending, and the accusative form always follows the "eis" preposition, meaning "into."

The study of the words "forever" and "for ever" and "everlasting" and "eternal" is fascinating! "Aioon," meaning "an age," is a limited, although quite long, time period, an "aeon." The phrase "eis ton aioonon" means "into the age," which means "projected into very long time." The more likely phrase for "eternity" is the plural, "eis tas aioonas," meaning "into the ages," a MUCH longer time, even eternity, implied, since the last age begins with the New Earth, its New Sky, and the New Jerusalem having descended upon it.

As I've already said to David, "eternity" and its adjectival form "eternal," do not have to be a full timeline, extending from eternity past to eternity future. A half-line is still considered to be infinite, from some point in history, a beginning point, and extending into eternity future. This is God's earthly Kingdom that began with the children of Israel. It now INCLUDES the Gentile believers who have been "graffed into the Olive Tree AMONG the natural branches," but at NO TIME has God completely given up on the Jewish people, nor on the larger group of the children of Israel. It's not "either ... or"; it's BOTH!

A half-line eternity is also applicable to the life span of the Messiah Yeshua`; as a man, He DID have a beginning - He was conceived of the Holy Ghost (Spirit) in Miryam's womb. However, even in death, He did not see decay but instead was resurrected to new life - "this day have I begotten thee!" He now ever lives to make intercession for us, and His Kingdom HE predicted would begin with His return! Those are HIS words, as in Luke 19:15 and in Matthew 25:31.

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Except the New Testament tells us we are a royal priesthood in God's holy nation. The prophecy from which that came is fulfilled. There is no warrant for seeing it fulfilled twice, thrice, or more times than that. We are it.

And, so we have been slated to become! What is a "king?" What does it mean to "reign" or to "rule?" What is a "priest?" What does it mean to be a "priest for the people?" Those will be our LITERAL JOBS, our OCCUPATIONS, during the Millennium and beyond!

And, there's a parallel here that can be extended to "sacrifices":

Isn't Yeshua` the Messiah of God the FINAL human King? Then, why must WE be "a royal priesthood" or a "nation of king-priests," if the Messiah is our "FINAL human King?" Wouldn't our roles be superfluous?! They SEEM to be contradictory!

Well, the same can be said about sacrifices: Isn't Yeshua` the Messiah of God the FINAL Sacrifice, His blood being shed ONCE for all mankind? Then why do we need additional sacrifices, as predicted in Ezekiel 40:38-43? Well, the simple answer is, "Because God said so!" But, the more detailed answers are (1) they are a REMEMBRANCE of what Yeshua` has done for us, and (2) they are the way that the Levites ("Leviy'iym") were fed, since they had no land of their own! They are not to appease God's wrath against sin; that's already been covered. Instead, they are more like Israel's way of taking Communion or taking the Eucharist, as some groups of Christians call it - the Lord's Supper! There's also a third reason: (3) It's a great way to CELEBRATE! It's a PARTY that includes the Messiah and YHWH GOD!

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

You are the one making a mistake by emphasizing the Old over the New, Judaizing Christianity, neglecting what the New plainly states about the Old, and believing things first invented by some guy in the 19th century no one in the entire history of Christianity has ever believed! 

The scriptures state what they state. Go back and re-read the text. You yourself plainly state he was talking to the Pharisees. Jesus was not speaking directly to you or me and there is absolutely nothing in the passage indicating he was speaking about the 21st century BUT there are in fact plain statement he was speaking about conditions existing right then and there. 

Read the text as written. 

Nah, I just hold the TANAKH (the Old Testament) with the same high regard as the B'rit Chadashah (the New Covenant or "Testament"). The New Testament authors only had the TANAKH to go on! The TANAKH was their Bible! And, I hold the New Testament authors with as much authority as the prophets of the Old! The New Testament authors DREW from the writings of the Old, often quoting from them! And, the New Testament authors, being disciples of Yeshua` and being sent by Him into the world - Apostles (apostolos = sent-one) - then they were prophets for the generations after the Messiah's First Advent, both explaining and enhancing the Scriptures as they were moved by the Holy Spirit of God! However, they NEVER contradicted the Old! Nor would they have been so audacious as to say their writings REPLACED the Old!

To the contrary, they held the Old Testament - the TANAKH - in the HIGHEST regard as God's HOLY WORD!

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

If it has a beginning, then it is not ageless or eternal; it is finite.

As a mathematician, this is just not true. As I said above, a half-line has a beginning, but it is still regarded as infinite in length. When one extends that to a "timeline," a thing or a person can have a beginning in time without ever having an ending and that is also considered eternal! If one has been taught otherwise, then one has been lied to.

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

That eternal kingdom is something they in the first century would receive. They are all dead now. Two-kingdoms futurism renders that verse meaningless for all the generations between that time and when the kingdom comes to earth. It denies the audience affiliation. You just spent unnecessary time and space belaboring the audience of the Pharisees and here the audience of the first century reader, the original audience, is being ignored and scripture made meaningless. Look more careful at the verse. 

Which Paul explicitly says is happening "at the present time." It's first century stuff, not 21st century. 

It was future to John 12:31, but not future to anything after John 20:1. Satan was cast down at Calvary, not the day he entered Jerusalem. It was locked in. 

No, sir. There's a difference between being "defeated" and being "cast down." HaSatan was defeated at the cross, but he was not yet cast down. Even when one falls down on his own, it doesn't mean that he was THROWN down by someone else. In Revelation 12:7-12, we read this:

Revelation 12:7-12 (KJV)

7 And there was war in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky"): Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky"). 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,

"Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens (Greek: eufrainesthe, <hoi> ouranoi = "rejoice, <the> skies"), and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time!"

This follows the occurrence of the Seventh Trumpet - the Last Trumpet - in Revelation 11!

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Whole scripture. 

According to Jude one satan has always been locked away from the day he first rebelled. He has been held in eternal bonds of darkness for the day of judgment. His roaming the earth eating dead people is part of that bondage. He is not a free agent. This two-kingdoms modern futurism is not just a bad Christology; it is a bad doctrine of satan, too.

Absolutely, whole Scripture! 

Jude 1:1-25 (KJV)

1 Jude (pronounced in Greek as "YOU-deh," Yhudah), the servant of Jesus Christ (Yeshua` [the] Messiah), and brother of James (Ya`aqoV or Jacob), to them that are sanctified by God (Elohiym) [the] Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ (Yeshua` [the] Messiah), and called: 2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God (YHWH Elohiym), and our Lord Jesus Christ (our Master, Yeshua`, the Messiah).

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains (Greek: desmois aidiois = "enduring bonds") under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said,

"The Lord rebuke thee."

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying,

"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

This word for "chains" here (desmois) is more general as "bonds"; the word used in Revelation 20:1 (halusin the accusative of halusis) is more specific: "chains" or "manicles" or "fetters." We call them "handcuffs" and "legcuffs" today.

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

If the tradition of light-bringer or morning star being stripped of his glory and cast down to become the adversary is true then he is in bondage! Rebellion is sin. Disobedience causes one to be enslaved, and dead in their transgression. Scripture does use language indicating satan has some power but he has nothing the Father does not give him. All of that seeming power is always couched in the larger context of his glory having been stripped from him, his having been cast out, held in bondage to both his Creator AND sin, able to do only that which he is commanded to do. 

And he was defeated to Calvary, not Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem; John 20:1, not John 12:31.

He is a minion. 

First, be very careful with the theological interpretations of Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. These passages that are supposedly about the Devil and are used as the origins of haSatan were wrenched out of context to be applied the way they are today.

Isaiah 14:3-4, 10-11, 16-19 (KJV)

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, 4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say,

"How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"
...

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
...

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying,

"Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet!"

Ezekiel 28:1-2 (KJV)

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 "Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, 'I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas'; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: ..."'"

"Tyrus" is the Roman way of saying "Tyre" ("Tsor" in Hebrew), a city of Phoenicia, that moved from the beach out to an island, when Nebuchadrezzar from Babylon came against the city. Alexander the Great conquered the city later by taking the debris of the beach city and throwing it into the sea to form an isthmus out to the island. Having built that landbridge, Alexander easily conquered the trapped citizens, who couldn't sail away. This fulfilled the prophecy against Tyre:

Ezekiel 26:7-14 (KJV)

7 For thus saith the Lord GOD;

"Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. 8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. 9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. 10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. 11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. 12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. 13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. 14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it,"

saith the Lord GOD.

HaSatan, The Enemy, was indeed defeated at Calvary; HOWEVER, he won't be "cast out of the sky and down to the earth" until AFTER the future Second Coming of our Lord.

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

No, it was not kept a secret. The consequences of disobedience, faithlessness, and/or unrighteousness were disclosed as early as the Law of Moses. In Deuteronomy 21(?) God told them they be divided up, dispersed, sent away and eventually destroyed if the weren't faithful. With the transition from Moses to Joshua they all openly covenanted with got unto a very simple, plain dichotomy: either life or death. They did NOT covenant for life or constant do-overs. They knew the consequences from the very beginning. In the prophets there are passages in which Israel is declared to have broken the covenant. The meaning of covenant-breaking is defined in the covenants! They were given a write of divorce. They were told they were no longer God's people and a people not His people would be called thusly. They were told a new covenant would be given. 

From the perspective of the Jews all that talk about rebuilding and restoration was understood to be about them, but that's because they did not realize (or they knew but did not take ownership) they were the problem!!! They were the infestation that needed to be eradicated. 

Nearly everything Jesus taught in the gospels can be found in the Old Testament. Paul, James, Peter, John, et al ALL repeatedly referenced the OT in their epistles. The newer revelation was firmly built on the older one(s). 

They knew. 

In the Law of Moses when a house was infested with mold or other disease the inhabitants had to clear out. The house was then cleansed, and it remained uninhabited for seven days. If at any time during those seven days the infestation returned then the house had to be torn down. 

That is the context for Matthew 20 through 26! 

Jesus entered Jerusalem and went to the temple. He entered his Father's house (even though God does not dwell in houses built by human hands), and he found it infested with thieves. So he chased them all out. And then he left and spent the night outside the city. He returned the next day to teach in the temple and almost immediately the infestation return. First the scribes and priests came to trick him and then, when the Pharisees heard Jesus had put them in their place, they tried their hands at it. He put them in their place, too. Having now revealed the legalism and hypocrisy of both parties the Sadducees gave it a try but that too only revealed the death laying inside of Israel. So the Pharisees gave it another try. Jack Bauer's having a bad day . Finally, Jesus confronted the Pharisees with scathing indictment and finally judgment. They were nothing but dead men's bones (unclean and untouchable). The blood of the prophets was on their hands, their house was desolate, and they would be held to account for it.

And then, on his way out of the temple, having seen the infestation persist, he told his disciples it was going to be destroyed. 

He was simply being faithful and obedient to his Father's standards. 

 

When the prophets spoke of the rebuilding or restoration of the temple, Jerusalem, or Israel they weren't talking about another do-over with the same corrupt carrion that the Hebrews had become. God was going start over, but it wasn't going to be a do-over.

Do you understand the resilience of life? When a forest is torched by lightning or by campers who leave a fire unattended or still burning when they close up camp, the whole thing is so torched, it looks as though it would NEVER recover. ... And, yet, it DOES, even without human intervention!

At first, the scrub comes back, then jack pine cones, which are highly impervious to fire, will burst open and drop their seeds and these trees will come back close to where the pine cones were dropped. In a short number of years, there will be new life springing up all over the area where the forest fire had been. After a human generation, the forest is beginning to look like it once did. And, all that is without human intervention. If humans are involved to replant trees in the area, it may come back within a generation!

This is the thing that most doom-sayers of Israel forget: CHILDREN are born and new generations thrive! Yeshua` said,

Mark 10:13-16 (KJV)

13 And they brought young children (OF THE JEWS) to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them,

"Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such (from such) is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."

16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

In spite of the curse their elders faced, the children were blessed! According to the Gospel of Mark (John Mark, a close associate to the Apostle Peter), this happened as they were about to go through Jericho on their way to Jerusalem, where He was about to ride in on the donkey as the King offered Himself to Jerusalem (the "Triumphal Entry").

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

There is no mention of another new nation of Israel in the New Testament. The kingdom had come, and it was on earth, but it was not of the earth or of the world. The kingdom of the anointed on is eternal. 

Oh! But, there was! I keep pointing to the writings of Paul to the Romans. Read through chapters 9 through 11! Again, I'm going to zoom in on the last part of Romans 11:

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11I say then, Have they (the children of Israel) stumbled that they should fall (permanently)? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them (the children of Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, WHAT SHALL THE RECEIVING OF THEM BE, BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD? 16 For if the firstfruit (the first harvest) be holy, the lump (whole harvest) is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if SOME of the branches be broken off, and thou (Roman Gentile), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree (the whole nation of Israel); 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee! 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well (Okay); because of unbelief they were broken off (pruned), and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR!: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee!

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off! 

23 And they (the children of Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleaster tree), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree (the nation of Israel): how much more shall these (children of Israel), which be the natural branches, be graffed into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE (the whole nation of Israel)?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (secret), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.

26 And so (in this way) ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion (the mount Zion in Jerusalem) the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Israel): 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election (the chosen seed of Israel), they are beloved for the fathers' (ancestors') sakes. 

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance! (God doesn't renege on His gifts and calling!) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them (the children of Israel) all in unbelief, that HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY UPON ALL!

Sure, they failed in the past. Who hasn't, at one time or another, failed God? Is any one of us without sin? But, it's WRONG to just write them off!

Just who do you think the New Covenant is for, anyway?

Jeremiah 30:7-31:40 (KJV)

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he (Jacob or Israel) shall be saved out of it.

8 "For it shall come to pass in that day," saith the LORD of hosts, "that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

10 "Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob," saith the LORD; "neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

11 "For I am with thee," saith the LORD, "to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure (a SPANKING, not destruction!), and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."

12 For thus saith the LORD, "Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. 13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines. 14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased. 15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.

16 "Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.

17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee 'an Outcast,' saying, 'This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.'"

18 Thus saith the LORD; "Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city (Jerusalem) shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof. 19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. 20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them. 21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me?" saith the LORD.

22 "And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."

23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked. 24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

1 "At the same time," saith the LORD, "will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people."

2 Thus saith the LORD, "The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest."

3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, "Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness (covenant-keeping love) have I drawn thee. 4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. 5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria (the West Bank): the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things. 6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, 'Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion (in Jerusalem) unto the LORD our God!'"

7 For thus saith the LORD; "Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, 'O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel!' 8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. 9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, "He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. 11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

12 "Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all. 13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow. 14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness," saith the LORD.

15 Thus saith the LORD; "A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel (Rachel) weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not."

16 Thus saith the LORD; "Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded," saith the LORD; "and they shall come again from the land of the enemy."

17 "And there is hope in thine end," saith the LORD, "that thy children shall come again to their own border. 18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; 'Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. 19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.'

20 "Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him," saith the LORD.

21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities. 22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; "As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; 'The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.'

24 "And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks. 25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul. 26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.

27 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. 28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant," saith the LORD.

29 In those days they shall say no more, "The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge." 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for they shall ALL know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I WILL FORGIVE THEIR INIQUITY, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SIN NO MORE!"

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36"If those ordinances (of the sun, moon, and the stars) depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever." (I.e., it will NEVER happen!)

37 Thus saith the LORD; "If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done," saith the LORD. (Again, it will NEVER happen!)

38 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that the city (Jerusalem) shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever."

Don't be pessimistic about Israel; be OPTIMISTIC and PRAY FOR THE PEACE OF JERUSALEM!

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

And if the prophets are read or re-read with that in mind then it will be discovered find it's true: the rejection had been revealed and revealed many times in many ways by many voices. They knew. ALL of the prophets will come together in a very cohesive way AND what the NT says about the OT will also fit perfectly. 

The New Testament AGREES with the Old Testament! Indeed, the two go hand-in-hand! And, BOTH predict the restoration of the children of Israel under the rule of YHWH God and His Messiah!

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Roy, you and I are done in this thread. I have repeatedly asked that the posts be kept about the posts and not the posters and I continue to read comments and inquiries like this one. I'm not having it. If you want to discuss things with me the keep that dross out of your posts. 

And make whatever point is intended succinctly. No one is reading these lengthy posts. The effort is being self-sabotaged. Anything I don't already know or understand can be parsed out gradually once the point is made. Walls of text. It's all the worse because nothing in the post proves the dissent because of the highly interpretive rendering of scripture.

 

Romans 11 is firmly couched in the explicit statement it was "at the present time". Nothing in the passage remotely implies the 21st century or two kingdoms. 

Hi, Josheb.

Fine by me. And, thank you for the interaction as long as it has survived.

The parts I wrote were fairly suscinct; however, the passages I quoted were not. On the other hand, the passages I quoted were pertinent to the discussion! Personally, I love to read the Scriptures, but I know that not everyone has the time. I'm retired for health reasons; so, I have lots of time ... as long as I can stay awake, that is! Naps are becoming more frequent. ?

One COULD just scan through the passage for the parts that were highlighted, but ... oh, well. One could also learn speed-reading, but that's another matter....

There's no reason in the world why one shouldn't accept that God still has a heart for Israel. Anyone who denies that is just fooling herself or himself. There are promises of a renewed nation of Israel in the prophecies, and not all prophecies have been fulfilled.

Even when a nation, whether Israel or some other country neighboring Israel, is "punished," UNLESS God says, "NO WAY am I giving them another chance," there's potential for a renewed position with God. In every generation, innocent children are born, and if given a chance to learn the truth about God and His Son, it's possible for them to make correct choices that will lead them back to YHWH God.

And, when we as believers, whether a child of Israel or a Gentile, have been ORDERED on threat that God may do the same to us to share the good news with the children of Israel, so that "through [our] mercy they also may obtain mercy," then it's REALLY not a good idea to relegate that to the past by saying "oh, that was just for the first Century."

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

But it is not future. 

I believe that Yeshua` was clear that the Kingdom IS in the future, including its entrance. Furthermore, there are not "two kingdoms" in my belief-system; to the contrary, there's only ONE Kingdom that will start when the King is back on earth. It's a Kingdom over the people here on this earth, and He shall rule them with a rod of iron. Some will be co-rulers, subordinate to the Messiah; some will be door-keepers.