Slaves to righteousness…..

[steve morrow]

IS  IT  RIGHTEOUS  TO  TRY  TO  TEACH  RIGHTEOUSNESS  WITHOUT  RIGHTEOUSNESS

 

ROMANS 10:3  for they being ignorant of  GODS  righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness have not submitted themselves unto  the righteousness of  GOD

PROVERBS 8:7  for my mouth shall speak truth and ---wickedness is an abomination to my lips---

--8:8-- all the words of  MY  mouth are in righteousness--- there is nothing froward or perverse in them 

EPHESIANS 5:9  for the --fruit-- of the spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth 

PSALM 119:172  my tongue shall speak of thy word ---for all thy commandments are righteousness---

 

*******PSALM 119:142  THY  RIGHTEOUSNESS  IS  AN  EVERLASTING  RIGHTEOUSNESS  AND  THY  LAW  IS  THE  TRUTH*******

PSALM 119:144  the righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting give me understanding and I shall live 

PROVERBS 8:20  I lead in the way of righteousness in the midst of the paths of judgement 

 

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1 CORINTHIANS  15:34  ---awake to righteousness and sin not--- for some have not the knowledge of  GOD ---I speak this to your shame---

1 JOHN 1:9  --IF-- we confess our sins  HE  is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ---ALL  UNRIGHTEOUSNESS ---

COLOSSIANS 2:8  beware lest  ---any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit--- AFTER  THE  TRADITION  OF  MEN --- after the rudiments of the world --- AND  NOT  AFTER  CHRIST ---

               ************************************************

PROVERBS 12:17   he that speaketh truth showeth forth righteousness ---BUT  A  FALSE  WITNESS  DECEIT---

PROVERB 11:5  the righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way ---but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness---

1 JOHN 3:10   in this the ---children of  GOD  are manifest--- and the children of the devil  ---whosoever doeth not righteousness is --not of  GOD---

 

          are the opinions of man righteousness --- is the wisdom of man of any profit

2 TIMOTHY 3:16  --ALL  SCRIPTURE-- is given by inspiration of  GOD  and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction  ---for instruction in righteousness---

 

1 PETER 4:1  forasmuch then as  CHRIST  hath suffered for us in the flesh arm yourselves likewise with the same mind for he that hath suffered in the flesh---hath ceased from sin---

--4:2-- that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh ---to the lusts of men -- but to the will of  GOD---

 

LUKE 1:37  ---for with  GOD  nothing shall be impossible---

 

MATTHEW 7:18  A  GOOD  TREE  CANNOT  BRING  FORTH  EVIL  FRUIT  NEITHER  CAN  A  CORRUPT  TREE  BRING  FORTH  GOOD  FRUIT 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST

[Sower]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

The two are not mutually exclusive conditions. Apart from Christ we cannot bear fruit. Apart from him we can do nothing (Jn. 15:1). It is God who works in us to will and act for his good pleasure (Phil. 2:13). God is not served by human hands as if he needed anything (Acts 17:25)

Looks like maybe that might be the case. Check out the scriptures I just cited and consider the matter in that 

 

Somehow my post has been misunderstood Josheb. Chapter 15 of John is probably my most studied scripture.

Sorry and I cannot do a better job, I'm posting this reply on my Limited Mini cell phone.

My first post that started this misunderstanding was when I read your statement that Jesus and the holy ghost bear the fruit.

" the teaching is not what bears fruit; Jesus and the holy spirit bear the fruit."

Specifically to "Jesus and the Holy Spirit Bear the fruit"

I knew the scriptures say that abiding Believers are the ones that bear the fruit. That's the question and the reply I sent to you Josheb.

I knew that Jesus produces/ supplies the fruit, and the branch (Believers that abide) bear the fruit. Believers display his working in us, we bear his fruit.

I for sure know in and of myself I can do nothing but in Christ I can do all things. This is a no-brainer. For some reason it seems a few believe my intent was that I produced fruit. No way Jose. It was simply the statement that Jesus and the holy ghost bear the fruit, that caused my dilemma.

I became interested in John 15 when I read that it was those who bear fruit were purged. I could not understand why those would be singled out to be purged. One day I read the verse in a living Bible that said prune and not purged. the light came on. The branches that bear fruit were pruned by The Gardener, the father, that way there would be less branch and more fruit. Much fruit. This pleases the father. I got it.

 

 

 

[Not me]

23 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Nor is it a "teaching" that bears the fruit. Neither is it our understanding of a teaching that bears the fruit. 

If this is true, why does scripture say; 

‘you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were entrusted’

If the understanding of that form teaching did not produce something?…

 

In the Beloved,  Not me 

[Alive]

If I may bring something into the conversation that may help as it has been a help to me over the years.

As has been stated here on this forum, the Lord blessed me in that He led me to read much of Watchman Nee when I was first saved--that experience laid a good foundation.

Nee discussed head knowledge juxtaposed against what he termed "experiential knowledge" and this in the context of regenerate "In Christ" of the Father individuals.

He taught that sometimes knowledge comes first and later experience and at times experience first and understanding after. This position can help us to understand, that it is God in us that does the works that He prepared before we were born. The fruit born in us, is produced by a Life. And that Life is Christ. Understanding this is very good in many ways, but that understanding doesn't produce the fruit. His Life in us does. We are New Creatures because of that New Nature in us--which is Christ. His Life in us is dynamic, active and one can say it flows. That flowing is for a different discussion. We see fruit born in very simple individuals that have little scriptural knowledge. This is a matter of 'Life'.

:-)

[Not me]

59 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I've already covered that scripture. Go back to the first page of the thread and look at the eighth post. 

I know, you said Paul ‘plays’ with the word, which is just a way for you to dismiss the intent of the scripture… 

For what the scripture is teaching is, that the understanding of the teaching that brings freedom from sin, does in fact bring freedom from sin.... For the experiencing of that teaching does bring the fruit of that teaching, which as scripture says, is freedom from sin and a slave to righteousness…

 

Be blessed as you pursue Him, Not me 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Not me
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[Not me]

9 minutes ago, Alive said:

If I may bring something into the conversation that may help as it has been a help to me over the years.

As has been stated here on this forum, the Lord blessed me in that He led me to read much of Watchman Nee when I was first saved--that experience laid a good foundation.

Nee discussed head knowledge juxtaposed against what he termed "experiential knowledge" and this in the context of regenerate "In Christ" of the Father individuals.

He taught that sometimes knowledge comes first and later experience and at times experience first and understanding after. This position can help us to understand, that it is God in us that does the works that He prepared before we were born. The fruit born in us, is produced by a Life. And that Life is Christ. Understanding this is very good in many ways, but that understanding doesn't produce the fruit. His Life in us does. We are New Creatures because of that New Nature in us--which is Christ. His Life in us is dynamic, active and one can say it flows. That flowing is for a different discussion. We see fruit born in very simple individuals that have little scriptural knowledge. This is a matter of 'Life'.

:-)

Blessings Watchman Nee has, (had), a living relationship with Christ and the fruit of his understanding has blessed many, including myself…

May you be blessed as God brings scriptures to life in you…

Be blessed in Him, Not me  

Edited October 29, 2021 by Not me

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

If I may bring something into the conversation that may help as it has been a help to me over the years.

As has been stated here on this forum, the Lord blessed me in that He led me to read much of Watchman Nee when I was first saved--that experience laid a good foundation.

Nee discussed head knowledge juxtaposed against what he termed "experiential knowledge" and this in the context of regenerate "In Christ" of the Father individuals.

He taught that sometimes knowledge comes first and later experience and at times experience first and understanding after. This position can help us to understand, that it is God in us that does the works that He prepared before we were born. The fruit born in us, is produced by a Life. And that Life is Christ. Understanding this is very good in many ways, but that understanding doesn't produce the fruit. His Life in us does. We are New Creatures because of that New Nature in us--which is Christ. His Life in us is dynamic, active and one can say it flows. That flowing is for a different discussion. We see fruit born in very simple individuals that have little scriptural knowledge. This is a matter of 'Life'.

:-)

Amen. The Lord who created us by His hand knows us best, does He not? We are His work indeed. The same Lord moves upon each of us in decidedly different ways. The proof is revealed by the testimony of lives hidden in Jesus Christ. 

The Lord called me out of this world when I was wide-eyed and clueless, an example of "experience first, knowledge later." In a nod to a past discussion here on Worthy, I'm that guy who experienced God in the desert for many years when he was young. I experienced the Lord, and then He chastened me... disciplined me... and dealt with me, leading me to a place where I emptied myself out so I might be filled with Him. 

Twenty five years ago I was quite the knucklehead, my friends. A zealous knucklehead to be sure, but naive and ill-prepared for what awaited on the road ahead. That's quite alright because the Lord knows precisely how to deal with naive knuckleheads.

Clueless when I was young, pierced by sorrows and wiser now that I'm older.   

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Amen. The Lord who created us by His hand knows us best, does He not? We are His work indeed. The same Lord moves upon each of us in decidedly different ways. The proof is revealed by the testimony of lives hidden in Jesus Christ. 

The Lord called me out of this world when I was wide-eyed and clueless, an example of "experience first, knowledge later." In a nod to a past discussion here on Worthy, I'm that guy who experienced God in the desert for many years when he was young. I experienced the Lord, and then He chastened me... disciplined me... and dealt with me, leading me to a place where I emptied myself out so I might be filled with Him. 

Twenty five years ago I was quite the knucklehead, my friends. A zealous knucklehead to be sure, but naive and ill-prepared for what awaited on the road ahead. That's quite alright because the Lord knows precisely how to deal with naive knuckleheads.

Clueless when I was young, pierced by sorrows and wiser now that I'm older.   

Amen! Indeed. After a bunch of years, in the Lord and a head full of knowledge from much reading and study--I was living in large part in a reliance upon that place. Now, its certain the Lord was active in me and perhaps for others to benefit, however He broke me down and in a way dismantled me. This came to be in part, I believe--because one very specific moment in time, I became acutely aware of my pride. It was a very real moment. I asked the Lord to bring me low. He honored that request. He isn't near done, I am certain-- :-), but He has gotten me to a place where I know that I can't do anything without Him. This is very difficult to communicate. Its as though I am a shell. A simple example might be this: when I wrote that bit you quoted. The Lord put that thought--those words--full blown into my head and I typed them. Then I read what I wrote as though somone else had written it--and I marvelled and was blessed as though I didn't write it and was helped by it.

I have little confidence in anything and my very faith seems like a wisp and yet He sustains me. There have been great trials of late--4 very difficult years--and I would fold if it weren't for Him. Difficult to articulate. He sustains me after dismantling me. This is something the world cannot fathom.

Sorry--I seemed to have blathered on.

[Not me]

@Marathoner & @Alive

It was a blessing to eat from the fruit of your relationship with Christ… 

A blessing indeed…

To Him be our all, Not me 

[Not me]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Because I said much, much, much more than that the quote mining is not a fair representation of my replies to this op. 

The most salient point is that it is not the teaching that changes anything. Paul does not say any such thing. He does say his readers have been entrusted with a teaching. He does not say the teaching comes from the heart. He says obedience comes from the heart. HUGE difference! 

Obedience from the heart. 
Teaching from the heart. 

Not the same two statements. One is found clearly stated in Romans 6:17-18; the other is not. The first is an accurate reflection of what is actually stated in the scripture; the second is not. 

That's it. 

 

 

Now there's another concern I haven't yet broached and that is: Paul is expressing gratitude and commending their growth. He is noting he his thanks. The basis of his thanks, his appreciation, his gratitude, is their "obedience from the heart." This obedience began "though you were slaves to sin." He entrusted a teaching to them and their heart-based obedience is evidenced by their becoming slaves of righteousness "after being freed from sin." 

In other words, Paul is not making a specific doctrinal statement; he's expressing his personal sense of gratitude ad telling them why he's thankful. 

Yes, there is soteriologically relevant content in there but that's not specifically his purpose behind his expression of thanks. He stops in the middle of his narrative to express that thanks and that's why it appears a doctrinal exposition is being asserted in those two verses (and the handful that follow. After expressing his thanks to God and valuing their accomplishment he moves back in to the doctrinal content. Remember that he is writing as a regenerate believer to regenerate believers about regenerate believers. The entire passage is about post-conversion conditions. Later Paul will return to some before-and-after content. 

As your understanding is, I will leave you to it…

     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But it might help to clarify some terms…

Freedom from sin is not fruit of the Spirit, freedom from sin is what is necessary to be had first, so that the fruit might grow unencumbered… 

The teaching Paul is putting forth is the teaching of how one might be made free from sin so that Christ might form Himself in one.. It is the understanding of this teaching that makes one free from sin thereby freeing them to be a slave of righteousness…

 

But as He teaches you, may He bless you in all good work and  word..

A follower of His, Not me

Edited October 29, 2021 by Not me
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