Israel is “saved” nationally - not as the Christian is

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There is an attempt by some to show that the Church of Christ is equal to Israel by the text of Galatians 6:12-16. This happens because the grammar is not considered. It reads:

¹² As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. ¹³ For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. ¹⁴ But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. ¹⁵ For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. ¹⁶ And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

It would do well to apply (i) the context, and (ii) simple grammar. The immediate context is the "circumcision" troubling the Church. The whole Book of Galatians follows this CONTRAST. It is a dire warning to Christians not to turn back to Moses, as suggested by the Jews. The immediate context, and the overall context is one of ANTAGONISTS. So Paul, under inspiration, uses some of the harshest language of the New Testament, and in 5:17 says that those of the flesh will always persecute those of the Spirit. Ishmael, born of man's efforts will always persecute Isaac who was born by God's intervention. But Paul suffered because of Israel's blindness and hard-heartedness. So when he wishes the Church "peace", he wishes "mercy" on the Israel of God. The word "AND" is a conjunction. It is (i) cumulative, (ii) copulative and (iii) sequential. 

That is, the word "AND" introduces a second and more entities ("Bread AND butter"), it joins at least two things ("John AND James"), and it sets a sequence ("he pulled the trigger AND the gun fired"). The "and" in verse 16 above PROVES grammatically that the Body of Christ AND Israel are two different things!

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13 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

I am afraid this is such an obtuse set of NEW and distorted doctrines that I will bow out now.

Prov 26- 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be like him. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own eyes.

I might be a fool, but it is my duty to warn you about the Lord said about calling a brother a "fool".

 

Go well brother, and God bless.

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13 minutes ago, Bawb said:

:I will also refer you to John 10:14-16 * I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, 15. just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16. I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

"The Jews" did not kill Yeshua. The Pharasees, Sadducees and an unknown number in a crowd of Jews convinced the Romans to execute Him. If one wants to be honest, We all killed Yeshua. He died for our sins.

After Pentecost...

Acts 21:20 - When they heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the Torah.

Additionally, Jews do not "convert" They already hold the belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (The one, true living God). All they have to do is believe Yeshua is the song of YeHoVah and he is their Jewish Messiah. They were/are not pagans who had to "convert" to anything. To "convert" means to renounce their "Jewishness" Where is it written that any of the Apostles "converted"? If that is what is written in your Bible, it is not a good translation. Hindus and Muslims "convert".

My dear Bawb, It is not our opinions that count. It is, in a Bible discussion group, the Words of God that count. Here is who God thought killed Jesus; 

Acts 2:22-24

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know — 

23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken* by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 

24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 

 

Acts 2:36-37

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 

 

Acts 3:12-15

12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 

13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 

14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 

15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 

 

Acts 4:8-10

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:

9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 

10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 

 

Acts 5:27-31

27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 

28 saying,"Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!" 

29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said:"We ought to obey God rather than men. 

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 

31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 

 

Acts 10:39-40

39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they* killed by hanging on a tree. 

40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 

 

Acts 13:27-28

27 For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him.

28 And though they found no cause for death in Him, they asked Pilate that He should be put to death. 

 

1 Thess 2:14-15

14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 

15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,

I'm sure you'll agree with me now.

As to "convert", shall I make a list of the scriptures where Jews are told to "convert"? In Acts 3:12 Paul says; "ye men of ISRAEL ..." and continues in verse 19, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"

You see, the issue at hand is NOT GOD. It is the MAN Jesus.

As to the "flock" of John 10, - who do you think became "ONE FLOCK"? Israel and the Gentiles, OR ... individual Jews and individual Gentiles? Does not Ephesians 2:15 say that Christ made "OUT OF" the TWO (Israel and the Nations) "ONE New Man"

Come, let us discuss what scripture has revealed, not traditional thinking. 

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6 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

You have a couple errant thoughts, concerning...

1. Mat 23:39 KJV For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

AND,

2. Rom 11:25-26 KJV ²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. ²⁶ And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

#2 does not say that the blindness of Israel [will] ENDS when the fulness of Gentiles comes in.   It says that their "partial blindness will end" at that time, which will then lead to ALL Israel being saved.   The result is that, then ALL Israel will then be blind to believing in the soon coming of her Messiah.   Their ungodliness will be removed (by their deliverer), but not their unbelief.  No man is saved by their righteousness. 

#1 does not say that will say "blessed is he who comes..." WHEN they see Jesus (again).  But it says that they will not see him again UNTIL they say "blessed is he who comes".  I.e. their believing on him is not conditioned on WHEN they see Him again,  but their seeing him again is conditioned upon believing in him first. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

Thanks for the blessings. From experience I'm not going to get many of those.

I must admit that I cannot fathom which argument of mine in the OP you are objecting to. The thrust of my posting is that Israel will be saved, but that the "salvation" is different to ours. If I did not get that accross, please forgive me.

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26 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Overall, what this op does is set up a number of premises and then either use them as a basis for its position (a reasonable practice as long as the premises themselves are correct), or argue against them (which is a logical fallacy known as the straw man). The over-arching thesis is that Israel is saved as a nation, that the national salvation is the restoration of the nation and dwelling safely and prosperously in the land. 

Several problems, several inconsistencies with scripture and itself arise in the op almost immediately. First, the op provides with a definition of faith, one commendably taken from Hebrews 11:1 which is a curious thing because Hebrews 11 lists a pile of Old Testament who are said to be looking for the same thing. The author of Hebrews concludes his survey of those having faith with this statement, "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect," (emphasis mine); the implication being they were either the promise or all their looking was for the same thing or the since it culminates in the "us" of Hebrews 11:1. Yet this op claims the faith Israel will have nationally is something entirely different that Abraham's, Moses' Gideon, Samson, David, and all of the prophets! In other words, the nation of Israel supposedly longs for and has faith in God to achieve something different from all the faithful of Hebrews 11 AND those having faith in the resurrected Son of God for the salvation of sin. The "us" of Hebrews 11:40 is those who believe in Christ for the salvation from their sin. 

I commend the op for defining faith but I question the op's application because the assertion of the op is Israel's faith is something entirely different than that which everyone listed as examples of that definition possessed.   

The next problem is the question of whether or not Paul is talking about two different kinds of salvation in Romans 11. The op appeals to Romans 11 as a basis for the position Israel's salvation has to do with land, peace, and prosperity but not salvation from sin. There is another point of commendation to be made about the op because the op is 100% correct when saying not all mentions of "salvation" are about salvation from sin. God spoke frequently in the OT about saving Israel from physical destruction by its earthly enemies. He did the same with the converts to Christ in the NT in regards to the pending destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Noah and his family were saved from the flood's destruction. As Israel entered the promised land God promised to save them from their enemies (Num. 10:9 and several score of other places). God saved Daniel from the lion. Not all mentions of "save," saved," or "salvation" are about the same condition. 

However, that does not mean the salvation about which Paul is writing in Romans 11 is a different salvation from that of their sin. Neither does it mean that what Paul is asserting is separated from the scores of Old Testament texts where God explicitly states He will save Israel from their iniquity. What wonder would it be to be provided a land of prosperity with peace but still dead in transgression? How can a nation have peace if still living in enmity with God through whom they have their covenant establishing that land? What in Romans 11 would lead us to believe that is what Paul is asserting, that there are two completely different types of salvation being discussed? 

Here's the text of Romans 11 for everyone to read and examine themselves to see if it is possible Paul is talking about two different salvations, 

Romans 11:1-36 KJV
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

 

Because if Paul is NOT writing about two completely different salvations then the text has been abused to make it say something it does not say and at least that portion of the op falls apart. We should all, therefore, discard at least that small portion of the op; the portion built on claims made about Romans 11:25-35. 

Notics also Paul explicitly states what he is writing about concern a remnant that exists "at this present time," which means it is not at our present time, but his. Since this is plainly and explicitly stated in the epistle we cannot use anything in the passage to support events that may or may not happen in the 21st century, such as the salvation of national Israel as defined by a peaceful and prosperous life in land while dead in transgression and estranged from God. In other words, there are at least two, not just one, reason to reject the use of Romans 11 to support the op's thesis of a land salvation. 

 

It would have been good to define terms other than "faith" and "salvation". The term "Israel" is also used in at least three completely different and irreconcilable ways in the New Testament. It would probably do well to define the identity of the Church, too, since the definition of Israel as "Israel is every one born from the line of Jacob," except those born anew from above by the Holy Spirit (by grace through faith ). The op explicitly states it is not necessary to come to faith to inherit the land. It's a particularly curious statement because the reason their land was taken away from them is because of their murderous denial of God's anointed one He sent them! Now, supposedly, God's going to give them back the land without believing in Jesus. God is going to save them by giving them back the land while the blood of God's anointed one remains on their hands and consciences. God is supposedly going to give them back their land while they remain dead in their iniquity, absent any belief in Jesus, still at enmity with the land-giving God who initiated the covenant with them that stipulated if they were disobedient, they'd be scattered and destroyed. It will also likely be beneficial to define terms because everything in the OT testifies to, and about, Jesus incarnate, dead, resurrected, and ascendant and the OT terms are often symbolic of new covenant realities that are much different than their temporal, earthly iterations. 

 

I'm gonna stop here because this post is getting lengthy and I'm meeting the misses for lunch. There are many other problems in this op but I will address them is separate posts when I have time. Among them are, 

1. The claim, "There is no requirement for Israel to believe in Jesus to inherit their Land in prosperity and safety," because that requirement was explicitly couched in the seed promised Abraham.
2. The claim there is no such requirement, "They are under Covenant for that (Gen.17) and their part is circumcision," because circumcision was just a sign AND that covenant was explicitly couched in the promised seed.
3. The claim there is no such requirement when the discussion should be about the expectation itself because God has already fulfilled his end of the covenant promise to give them the land. After having fulfilled His covenant promise of land God stipulated the conditions by which they could keep the land and they did not abide by those requirements. 
4. The claim Israel's restoration is moot to the convert to Christ because of an ethnic change when in fact the ethnicity if that of having been grafted into the tree of Israel that is Christ, the common root (which brings me to the next point). 
5. Israel is not solely defined as those born from the line of Jacob. 
6. Israel's salvation must not be different. Not has the op potentially argued a straw man, the claim all the premises (many of which are clearly incorrect) dictates a necessarily different salvation is a false-cause argument (another common logical fallacy). 
7. The relatively minor mistake of neglecting the fact Noah's salvation by water is said to be related to the "baptism which now saves," and the pledge of a good conscience "through the resurrection of Christ," (1 Pet. 3:20-21) and Noah's faith said to have made him a preacher and heir of righteousness apart from the world of the ungodly (Heb. 11:7; 2 Pet. 2:5). Even though that salvation - temporally speaking - had little to do with salvation from his own sin, transgression, or iniquity, it was in fact directly related to the promises found in Christ in the salvation from sin. 
8. The op claims the Israel' of "All Israel will be saved," is the Israel defined as those born from the line of Jacob, but the very narrative text (Romans 9-11)from which the phrase "All Israel will be saved" comes states at its beginning a definition of Israel that is much, much different than the one provided in this op. 
9. The op claims a belief is not required to attain the land, peace, and prosperity but the Romans 11 text explicitly ties the salvation of Israel to 1) the deliverer, and 2) the deliverer removing the ungodliness from Jacob, and..... taking away their sins!!!!! This is a huge problem for the op because the op has claimed the salvation of Israel is a different salvation than the Christian salvation (see the title of the op), yet the covenant promises by God to Israel are firmly and inextricably couched in conditions like the coming of their deliverer and having sins taken away. 
10. Not addressed in the op but futurist eschatology typically claims a third of the Jews will die in disbelief before the final coming of Christ. This means not all of Israel will be saved. 
11. The neglect of the scripturally-stated causes of Israel's condition: 1) disobedience to God's covenant, and 2) the rejection of Christ, which, depending upon one's view of the covenant and law, either of which prevents them from the land, peace, and prosperity AND neither condition is even close to being manifest in those born from the line of Jacob to this day.
12. The contradiction between saying a belief in Christ not required but then later saying in order for the salvation-by-land to occur "Somebody worthy to take care of their sins" is required because the only worthy person is Jesus. 
13. The problem of requiring a return to the covenant requirements (works) before coming to saving faith in somebody worthy to take care of their sins. This is a works-based soteriology. It is a salvation by works-first-then-plus-faith that completely contradicts salvation by grace. 
14. The problem of claiming the "effects of the Covenant made with Moses must be removed" when that has already happened. The op appeals to Jer. 31:31-33 but both Paul and the author of Hebrews quote Jeremiah to say that new covenant has already been made with Israel. This error is remarkable because the anointed one of God was born from the line of Jacob, came to those born from the line of Jacob, and made that new covenant first with those born of the line of Jacob! 

 

I'll stop here. I suspect there are a few other concerns problematic with this op but I have to go. As it is there are, including the ones I cited prior to the numbered list about eighteen matters that must be addressed if this op is going to be correct. Several of these concerns are instantly fatal to the op such that just one of them being true makes the op not true. 

Before anyone comments on my op-reply (or to the op independently of anything I have posted) I recommend three things: 1) read through the various passages in the Old Testament where God speaks about the covenant(s) he has initiated with Israel (paying attention to their details and the fact they are all predicated on the promises first made to Abraham), 2) read through the narrative of Romans 9-11, noting all the Old Testament texts Paul is referencing, and 3) look up every in the New Testament how every Old Testament text used in this op is used in the New Testament, understanding the OT informs the NT while the NT interprets the OT. The latter revelation reveals what was veiled and hidden in the former.

 

(my apologies for the length, but there are numerous problems with this op)

Thank you for your lengthy reply. It was fair, but we need to clear up a few things. You're obviously sharp and well-versed in scripture so I'll cut some corners to save a lot of writing. 

In your second paragraph you speak of a claim I made that the faith of Abraham et al. was different. But I made no such claim. I propose the following clarification. If Abraham is to sit at feast in the Kingdom (Matt.8:11), he must, by default, have been born again for one only sees and enters the kingdom by rebirth - and that by faith (Jn.1:11-13). I'm sure a re-read of my OP will show that I did not address this, especially since Abraham is not an Israelite.

In your third paragraph you object to two different salvations. But later you agree that there are different salvations. But then you take a 90° and talk of "salvation from sin(s)". But the theme was salvation from death and dispersion outside of God's favor and plan. So again, its easier for me to clarify than a "back and forth" between us. Israel's salvation is a national salvation including all that prophet Zacharias prophesied in Luke 1. the FORGIVENESS OF ISRAE'S SINS is based on the same criteria as the Church - the efficacy of Christ. And I gave the scriptures (Jn.1:29, 1st Jn.2:2). I did not defy the multiple prophets who said that Israel's sins will be "made white as snow" (e.g. Isa.1:18)

Next, Romans 11 does NOT discuss two different types of salvation per se. Both entities aspire to be part of a Tree. And a Tree in parable is a KINGDOM, not the Church (Judg.9, Dan.4, Ezek.31 etc.). What Romans 11 does is show that DESPITE unbelief, Israel is restored Nationally. Paul, in the preceding Chapters, builds a case for all men under sentence of death because of sin and sins. After producing the solution in Chapter 8, and denying any grace by Law in Chapter 7, the cry would go out "what about Israel?" They have joined all men under sentence but refused the Lord Jesus. But at the same time, they have a Covenant for the Land. The cry will be; "God is unable to recover Israel" and so fulfill His Covenant of Promise. So Paul devotes three Chapters to how God does it.

Let me briefly outline the differences between what salvation entails for a Christian, and what it is entails in Romans 11 for Israel. The Christian, by faith, has his sins removed. They fell on Christ and the Christian embraces Him. Faith in Christ brings a rebirth which infuses divine life. This divine life is received as a birth in the human spirit (Jn.3:6) and makes the Christian a son of God. As son of God the Christian becomes heir to all that God has. Added to this, this life is able to sanctify the Christian to the extent that he ends up in the image and likeness of Christ intrinsically (Rom.8:29). This Holy Spirit is also given economically for power to serve God's interests. His glory in resurrection is "celestial". His hope to glory is Christ IN him. His future is to display Christ and rule the earth sea and sky.

The Israelite is born to Isaac. He thus falls under Covenant of Promise (Gen.12 & 15 & 17). His inheritance is Canaan. He is offered the Kingdom by Christ, but refuses the King. His sole hope is the Covenant. The Covenant is explicit. The Good Land is to be an "everlasting possession". The stumbling block is his handling of another Covenant - that of Law, given 430 years later. It demands that he be chastised and ejected from the Land. For God to overturn this, God must have a judicially legal way to put away his sins. This is achieved by Messiah Who died for the "sins of the whole world". God must also deal with the Covenant that stumbles him. For this, a New Covenant is made. The Law is the same, but they are written inside the Jew. To cope with his nature, a new heart is given. This contrasts to the Christian who is partaker of the divine nature. The Jew thus ends up displaying God's justice and mercy, and is restored to leading Nation, in their Land, BUT WITHOUT RULING.

I'll stop here and give some time to the other posters, but I, by no means, have exhausted the matter.

Go well bro and I hope you had a romantic time with the "missus". We just celebrated our 43rd 'round the beginning of the month.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

That they will be saved in the future,  I fully agree. 

Jer 30:10-11 KJV ¹⁰ Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. ¹¹ For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

But I think your point is that their salvation is different than by grace through faith,  such as is the way now.   The thrust of Jeremiah 30 is that God will not make a full end of them [Israel].  But he will save them from afar.   It will be 

1. DURING the time of Jacob's trouble, 

2. WHEN God brings again their captivity, 

3. WHILE they are dwelling "afar" in the lands of their captivity, 

4. FULFILLING (making a full end) of the times of the Gentiles, the enemies of Israel.

They will come to faith in Jesus,  their Messiah,  even as we come to faith in Jesus our Lord, one and the same. 

Act 2:33-36 KJV ³³ Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. ³⁴ For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, ³⁵ Until I make thy foes thy footstool. ³⁶ Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both LORD and CHRIST.

We recognize Jesus as Lord,  because he NOW sits at the Father's right hand,  sending forth the Holy Ghost,  as a testimony of his position as our Lord, until we come to the unity of the faith.   

They will recognize him as their Messiah/Christ  when he LEAVES his Father's side (no longer seated beside him) to make his enemies his footstool,  as a testimony that he is the Christ,  the son of David,  ordained to sit forever on his throne. 

How do we know that he is Lord over ALL of mankind, Jew and Gentile alike?  Because he sits at the Father's right hand. 

How do they know that he is Messiah,  over the whole house of Israel?  Because he leaves the Father's right hand to put down (bring into submission)  all of Israel's enemies. 

He will continue to sit at the Father's right hand until "... the LORD says unto my Lord..."

Psa 110:1-7 KJV ¹ A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. ² The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. ³ Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. ⁴ The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. ⁵ The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. ⁶ He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. ⁷ He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

Great. What do you think of Zacharia's prophecy? Any mention there, or anywhere, of receiving the indwelling Spirit? I don't mean the Holy Spirit of Pentecost, but the Holy Spirit that John 14-16 speaks about and which can only be had by believing in Jesus (Jn.1:11-13)?

[AdHoc]

1 minute ago, Da Puppers said:

Eze 39:25-29 KJV ²⁵ Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; ²⁶ AFTER that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. ²⁷ WHEN I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; ²⁸ THEN shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. ²⁹ Neither will I hide my face any more from them: FOR I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

"...AFTER that they have borne their shame...

WHEN I have gathered them out of their enemies lands [sic, v.28... unto their own land] ...

THEN shall they know that I... cause them to be led into captivity... but I gathered them unto their own land...

FOR I have poured my spirit upon the house of Israel..."

We find a similar thought in Joel2,

Joe 2:25-29 KJV ²⁵ And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. ²⁶ And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. ²⁷ And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. ²⁸ And it shall come to pass AFTERWARD, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: ²⁹ And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

This portion that says that God will pour out his spirit upon ALL flesh,  corresponds to the whole house of Israel,  everyone!   To the 8 time When the partial blindness shall have ended and ALL Israel is [to be] saved.   You must have the spirit of God to be saved. 

The gathering of the captivity of Jacob from afar,  will take place upon the remnant of Israel.   Most people fail to distinguish between the remnant according to the election of grace,  versus the election according to remnant according to mercy.   The remnant according to grace constitutes the time before house of Israel is reduced in number,  from "as the sand of the sea", to the point where all Israel shall be saved. 

Isa 11:11-16 KJV ¹¹ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the REMNANT of his people, which <shall be left>, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. ¹² And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. ¹³ The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. ¹⁴ But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. ¹⁵ And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. ¹⁶ And there shall be an highway for the REMNANT of his people, <which shall be left>, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

I understand the following. If Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life, the life of God would have gone INTO him, permeated him and made him able to be in the image and likeness of God. He would have been "filled" INTERNALLY. The Greek word is "pleroo" and means to be filled up or made perfect like a bottle is filled. That happened on resurrection evening in John 20:22, and transforms a man (2nd Cor.3:18).

But God has also given man some duties, and he is not strong enough in his humanity to do them. So for this the Holy Spirit is poured ON, or UPON, the saints for POWER. The Greek word is "pletho" and means "furnished" or "equipped" like a policeman is furnished with a uniform, badge and gun.

The gospel of John shows how the Spirit FILLS you for LIFE. Acts shows how the saints were FILLED for MINISTRY. Only a Christian can get the first by faith (Jn.3:15-16). Anybody can get the second. Even a donkey can speak by the Holy Spirit, but it stays a donkey afterwards.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

That they will be saved in the future,  I fully agree. 

Jer 30:10-11 KJV ¹⁰ Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. ¹¹ For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

But I think your point is that their salvation is different than by grace through faith,  such as is the way now.   The thrust of Jeremiah 30 is that God will not make a full end of them [Israel].  But he will save them from afar.   It will be 

1. DURING the time of Jacob's trouble, 

2. WHEN God brings again their captivity, 

3. WHILE they are dwelling "afar" in the lands of their captivity, 

4. FULFILLING (making a full end) of the times of the Gentiles, the enemies of Israel.

They will come to faith in Jesus,  their Messiah,  even as we come to faith in Jesus our Lord, one and the same. 

Act 2:33-36 KJV ³³ Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. ³⁴ For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, ³⁵ Until I make thy foes thy footstool. ³⁶ Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both LORD and CHRIST.

We recognize Jesus as Lord,  because he NOW sits at the Father's right hand,  sending forth the Holy Ghost,  as a testimony of his position as our Lord, until we come to the unity of the faith.   

They will recognize him as their Messiah/Christ  when he LEAVES his Father's side (no longer seated beside him) to make his enemies his footstool,  as a testimony that he is the Christ,  the son of David,  ordained to sit forever on his throne. 

How do we know that he is Lord over ALL of mankind, Jew and Gentile alike?  Because he sits at the Father's right hand. 

How do they know that he is Messiah,  over the whole house of Israel?  Because he leaves the Father's right hand to put down (bring into submission)  all of Israel's enemies. 

He will continue to sit at the Father's right hand until "... the LORD says unto my Lord..."

Psa 110:1-7 KJV ¹ A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. ² The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. ³ Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. ⁴ The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. ⁵ The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. ⁶ He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. ⁷ He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

?

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

That they will be saved in the future,  I fully agree. 

Jer 30:10-11 KJV ¹⁰ Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. ¹¹ For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

But I think your point is that their salvation is different than by grace through faith,  such as is the way now.   The thrust of Jeremiah 30 is that God will not make a full end of them [Israel].  But he will save them from afar.   It will be 

1. DURING the time of Jacob's trouble, 

2. WHEN God brings again their captivity, 

3. WHILE they are dwelling "afar" in the lands of their captivity, 

4. FULFILLING (making a full end) of the times of the Gentiles, the enemies of Israel.

They will come to faith in Jesus,  their Messiah,  even as we come to faith in Jesus our Lord, one and the same. 

Act 2:33-36 KJV ³³ Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. ³⁴ For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, ³⁵ Until I make thy foes thy footstool. ³⁶ Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both LORD and CHRIST.

We recognize Jesus as Lord,  because he NOW sits at the Father's right hand,  sending forth the Holy Ghost,  as a testimony of his position as our Lord, until we come to the unity of the faith.   

They will recognize him as their Messiah/Christ  when he LEAVES his Father's side (no longer seated beside him) to make his enemies his footstool,  as a testimony that he is the Christ,  the son of David,  ordained to sit forever on his throne. 

How do we know that he is Lord over ALL of mankind, Jew and Gentile alike?  Because he sits at the Father's right hand. 

How do they know that he is Messiah,  over the whole house of Israel?  Because he leaves the Father's right hand to put down (bring into submission)  all of Israel's enemies. 

He will continue to sit at the Father's right hand until "... the LORD says unto my Lord..."

Psa 110:1-7 KJV ¹ A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. ² The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. ³ Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. ⁴ The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. ⁵ The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. ⁶ He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. ⁷ He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

This posting is not good. 

Your quote from the book of  Jeremiah from the Old Testament, from chapter 30: Jeremiah was a prophet during the Babylonia Captivity. 

This is the word of the Lord that announced the end of the Babylonia Captivity and the return of the people living in Captivity back to their motherland.

It says that the Lord will end the punishment he had done to them because of their disobedience he had punished them.

And he promised to continue correcting them and continued to punish them that he will not leave them unpunished. V.11

This prophecy as it was spoken from Jeremiah has been fulfilled, it came to pass. 

And as the prophesied their Captivity ended without a war and any fighting.  

Non of them fought for their freedom from their Captivity. 

Jeremiah 30:

30 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,

2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

12 For thus saith the Lord, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.

13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.

14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.

15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Jer 30:16-24 KJV ¹⁶ Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey. ¹⁷ For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. ¹⁸ Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof. ¹⁹ And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. ²⁰ Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them. ²¹ And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD. ²² And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. ²³ Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked. ²⁴ The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Sorry,  but God has not made a full end of the nations of Israel's captivity.   Jacob has not drawn near unto their God.   They have not made God,  their God.   They are not his people.   God has not corrected them in measure.   His fury has not been poured upon them. 

Eze 24:13-14 KJV ¹³ In thy filthiness is lewdness: because I have purged thee, and thou wast not purged, thou shalt not be purged from thy filthiness any more, till I have caused my fury to rest upon thee. ¹⁴ I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

This prophecy of Eze 24 was made concerning THE DAY that Nebuchadrezzar laid seige to Jerusalem,  on the 10th of Tevet of the 10th year of Zedekiah,  BEFORE the temple was destroyed.  GOD told Ezekiel,  because you did not repent,  at that time,  I, the Lord GOD,  will not purge thee of thy sins until I pour out my fury upon thee.  It has not been done. 

The latter time for this fulfillment has not come. 

The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

I comment that you are polite and give reasons, and you are arguing your point. 

 

,,to correctly understand you and be in the same page, I suggest to list the points we both agree with.

I am not going to  speak on your behalf but I think that I can stay within a  perimetere that maybe agreeable to you, such as the fact that Jeremiah lived during the Sinai Covenant and he and Judah-Israel were also under the Sinai Covenant. 

Jeremiah was the prophet of the Lord God the other party to the Sinai Covenant and he was the Enforcer of the provisions in the Covenant. 

The Nation was under the King of Babylon who had taken the best of the Nations in the Babylonia Captivity. 

This one I have to be careful and asked you a question knowing according to your claim that Jeremiah's prophesies are still waiting to be fulfilled. 

And you claim that knowing that when someone is prophesied and his words do not come to pass then he was not a truth prophet, but in this case we cannot say that because the history about Jeremiah has established him as a truth prophet besides the words "that the word of the Lord came to him and told him write those words down and go and tell to my people to my Nation Israel.

So this was the word of the Lord to his people and for the time Israel was his people according to the Sinai Covenant....

This prophetic word was to the Nation of God the Nation he had a Covenant with and he could punish the Nation for their disobedience...

Are the people Israel and the Jews in Covenant under the Covenant of Sinai still? 

Is the Sinai Covenant still in effect?