When is 'the Church' judged?

[AdHoc]

On 12/7/2021 at 3:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

To me this happens when Christ returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.  Is that not the majority understanding?  If not how does the church get raptured before death and judgment?  

Is there anyone who believes in pre trib rapture willing to answer a bunch of questions?  
 

Probably the best answer so far is from our brother Diaste in the second posting on this thread. Hebrews 9:27 sets forth God's mind. Every man can only die once "and then comes judgment". But we see that in every case in scripture, the judged are LIVING. Our Lord Jesus RISES, then presents His blood in heaven and it is fully accepted. Then, 40 days later He is accorded with a seat with the Father in His (the Father's) throne. From ascending on resurrection day He was a ALIVE. Our Lord Jesus, Head of the House of God - the Church, is judged by God and found worthy to;

1. Sit in the Father's throne while He builds His Church from the Gentiles
2. Sit in His own throne when the time comes to accomplish the Kingdom on earth
3. Sit in David's throne as the superior David - King of the Jews
4. Be Heir of the world as Son of Abraham
5. Be Heir of all things as the Creator and Reconciler
6. Be worshiped by all the host of heaven, all on earth, and all those still under the earth in the Millennium
7. Be worshiped by all living creatures in the post Millennial ages

The Christian, having become the House of God individually and corporately, must, by the same scripture that Diaste brought, be judged BEFORE Israel, the Nations, the angels and the demons. Now consider this. 

In Daniel Chapter 12 we have the testimony of the Great Tribulation in

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

Without even going into detai, it is clear that Israel are Judged even while the Tribulation is ending. "To be delivered" is a decision by God to relieve some of their terrible fate. And this decision is based on a Book that has its beginning before Moses (Ex.32:32). But the interesting thing is that even those not written in the Book "SHALL AWAKE". That is, again, men who are about to be judged are ALIVE. And even the evil among them are resurrected. But even more interesting is that if part of the judgement is to be delivered from "Jacob's Trouble" then it must tae place in the closing days of the Great Tribulation. And because of the verse in Peter concerning judgment and the House of God, THE JUDGMENT OF THE CHURCH MUST BE OVER!

This does not tell exactly when the judgment of the Church is, but it is AFTER the Rapture, for that is when the DEAD SHALL RISE, but before the closing days of the 1260 days of Tribulation. Since the Lord returns with His saints with it already decided who will go into the Wedding Feast (Rev.19), the judgment of the Church must be in the air and after the Rapture.

But let me close with an interesting situation. The world's population is now 8 billion. If 1% are believers, there are 80 million Christians right now. And if all the people who ever lived AND DIED since Christ are another 8 billion, and 1% of them are believers, we have another 80 million Christians. Now, in the Judgment it says that we have to give an account of ourselves to Christ. Let's say each Christian gets 20 seconds to do this. The 160 million Christians times 20 seconds is 3,20o million seconds of Judgment. There are 31,557,600 seconds in a Julian astronomical year. If this is so, then the Judgment of the Christians will take 102 years. But there is a problem.

In Luke 8:17 and Ephesians 5:13, our Lord promised to bring all things done in secret to light. If this is the case for every Christian, and every Christian has to listen to everyone's judgment, then 20 seconds is too little. Now, I have speculated with the figures, and they could be way out, but you can see that if every Christian is judged before the others (for many Christians have hurt other Christians), we could be standing before that BEMA for a long time. This also means that if this is so, we could be raptured years before the start of the Great Tribulation. 

Just thinking.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

The Church is built from Jew and Gentile converts (Acts 2; Gal. 3:28; Rom. 11). 

There is no "Kingdom on earth" in the New Testament beside the one Jesus brought with him in his incarnation (Mt. 12:28). 

When Daivd spoke of God's oath to set one of his descendants on his throne he was speaking of the resurrection (Acts 2:30-36). Jesus will remain seated in heaven until all his enemies are made a footstool, not beforehand.

What does the New Testament further reveal about Daniel 12?

Aaahhhh! Sniping. It's 01:20 here and my bed calls. But so that you know, we don't disagree. In your first point I was thinking of Acts 15:13-17. But I don't dispute your statement. In your second point, I agree partially. A Kingdom is a sphere were a king lives and his will is carried out. When Jesus cast out demons he said His kingdom had come. When He left He informed the Jews that the kingdom was forfeit. But in the Church, which has the keys to the kingdom, and where a King has say, it is a kingdom, as John says in Revelation 1:9. But it is a "kingdom in patience" for it is not fully established on earth. Your third point is correct. But be ready to define "footstool". Is it the same as "destroyed"? Your last point shows me a rather sad situation. There is much in Daniel 12. Your question is open-ended. What ever I say, you'll bring something else. That's the nature of sniping.

Be it far from me, my esteemed brother, to tell you what to do. But a man of your knowledge should be posting solid arguments to help the young and those not yet blessed by a good teacher. Why don't you give us the benefit of a couple of pages of what Daniel 12 carries through to the New Testament.

I wish you good night (here).

[DeighAnn]

23 hours ago, The Light said:

He is coming for the 12 tribes across the earth. Do you think He will come in an hour that they think not? No. They will be fully aware of exactly when He come.

Please respond in like manner with how you read these exact scriptures so EVERYONE CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE The answer to the question is, Yes I do.  Because they are looking to be gathered BEFORE the man of sin is revealed.  Since He comes AFTER that, and there are those teaching He comes before then YES, I BELIEVE HE IS COMING AT AN HOUR THEY THINK NOT.  

HE MOST certainly is coming at an hour that EITHER those who believe in pre trib don't know or those who DO NOT BELIEVE IN PRE TRIB don't know.  Either way, that's alot of people who don't know what hour He comes.  Just like it is written.  

Who does He come as a thief in the night to?  Those who don't know the TRUTH.  Those who are believing a LIE.  Those who are being DECEIVED.  The mystery of Iniquity doeth already work.  WE ARE LIVING PROOF of that very truth HERE,  right now,  in this thread.  SO

Lets see how many TIMES we are told exactly when He will come, what it will be like and what is EXPECTED OF US. (SINCE we already know that 1 Thes 4 is about THE DEAD returning with Christ when CHRIST as King of kings and Lord of lords returns WITH THOSE who have gone to sleep/died (AND ARE CALLED ANGELS SOMETIMES AND SAINTS OTHERS, but that is another subject) and then THE ALIVE AND REMAINING are caught up, I will skip that time)  


2 Thessalonians 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure

Except for 'the really bad ones'?  ALL

because

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer

Does that mean only up until some 'physically or spiritually' uncomfortable point?  NO

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you

 SEE any need for the good to face the evil FOR GODS PURPOSES?  HOW ABOUT SOME JUSTIFICATION FOR GOING INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE?  
 

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

WHEN DOES OUR TROUBLE END?  When Lord Jesus is REVEALED/the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST. How will that LOOK?

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

If we KNOW GOD AND OBEY THE GOSPEL will there be any need to worry about that vengeance/wrath hitting us?  NO
So ALL it takes to not suffer GODS wrath,  is to know GOD and obey the gospel.  The words of God, the word made flesh aka Our Lord and Saviour KEEPS US FROM GODS WRATH.  
Gods wrath doesn't fall upon us IT FALLS UPON THEM.

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power

 THE WORK OF FAITH WITH POWER.  The 'tribulation' will be A WORK of faith with POWER.  If someone tells you 'the Holy Spirit' wont be around, RUN AWAY from them.  

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

THESE ARE JUST HOW I PERSONALLY READ IT AND/OR UNDERSTAND IT
NOW WE ARE TOTALLY BEGGING YOU TO CONSIDER CHRISTS RETURN AND HIS GATHERING OF US

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

DEAR GOD PLEASE DON'T LET YOUR SOLID FOUNDATION GET SHAKEN UP, DON'T BE TROUBLED WHETHER IN YOUR SPIRIT OR BY WHAT SOMEONE SAYS, NOT BY THE FIRST LETTER WE SENT TO YOU TO THINK THAT THE DAY OF CHRISTS RETURN IS AT HAND BECAUSE IT ISN'T

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING ANYONE SAYS TO YOU BECAUSE IT WILL ONLY BE A LIE IF THEY SAY HE IS COMING BEFORE THERE IS
1.  A FALLING AWAY AND
2.  THE MAN OF SIN/SON OF PERDITION BE REVEALED.   

THOSE 2 THINGS HAVE TO TAKE PLACE BEFORE THE LORD RETURNS FOR ANY REASON

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

AND WHAT THAT MAN OF SIN WILL BE DOING BEFORE CHRIST RETURNS IS

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

COME ON PEOPLE, DON'T YOU REMEMBER HOW WE SPOKE OF EXACTLY THESE THINGS AND IN THAT ORDER?  

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

NOW YOU KNOW WHAT HAS TO TAKE PLACE BEFORE THE LORD RETURNS.  THAT IS WHY THE LORD ISN'T COMING BEFORE THAT

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

I THINK IT IS GOD WHO LETS ANY AND EVERYTHING.   POSITIVE?  NOPE.  ALSO DON'T THINK IT MATTERS.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

THE WICKED HAS TO BE REVEALED FIRST FOR THE LORD TO CONSUME AND DESTROY HIM BY HIS COMING.  THAT IS THE ONLY ORDER THAT WORKS.  IF CHRIST COMES BEFORE THAT, HOW DOES HIS BRIGHTNESS NOT DESTROY THE EVIL IT WILL DESTROY WHEN HE COMES THE NEXT TIME?  DOES IT GET SHUT OFF?  WHERE IS THAT WRITTEN.  

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the Brightness of His coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

ACCORDING TO WHAT IS WRITTEN SOME OF US ARE GOING DOWN BECAUSE WE ARE ON OPPOSITE SIDES. DECEPTION IS HERE AND DECEPTION IS COMING TO OVERCOME AND TAKE AT WILL WHO EVER IT CAN

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

SOME OF US ARE RIGHT NOW BELIEVEING A LIE AND THAT LIE HAS TO DO WITH WHEN CHRIST IS RETURNING AND NOTHING ELSE.  THAT LIE HAS TO DO WITH THE TIMING OF CHRISTS RETURN.  THAT IS WHERE THE DELUSION IS COMING INTO PLAY.  SO I AM GOING TO STAND ON THE SIDE THAT SAYS CHRIST RETURNS TO GATHER US AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN WHOS WORKS WILL BE BY LIES AND DECEPTION WITH SIGNS AND WONDERS

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

THE WORK OF FAITH WITH POWER.  EITHER WE HAVE FAITH THAT GOD CAN PART THE SEA AND WE CAN GO THROUGH ON DRY GROUND OR WE DON'T.  EITHER WE BELIEVE THAT WE CAN BE THROWN INTO THE FIERY FURNACE AND NOT BE SINGED BECAUSE WE HAVE FAITH IN THE POWERS OF GOD OR WE DON'T.  WE EITHER HAVE FAITH THAT WHAT IS WRITTEN IS COMING TO PASS OR WE DON'T.  WE EITHER HAVE FAITH THAT THE GOSPEL ARMOR KEEPS US FROM BEING TEMPTED TO BELIEVE LIES OR WE DON'T.  

IF WE ARE OF THE GROUP THAT HAS IT WRONG WE MIGHT BE DAMNED.  WHAT ISN'T RIGHT IS BELIEVING THAT GOD WOULD NOT TREAT ALL HIS CHILDREN JUSTLY.  OR THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE EVERYTHING UNDER HIS POWER.  OR HE WOULD DO SOMETHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.  

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I AM GOING TO HOLD FAST TO MY FAITH THAT GOD CAN DO ALL THINGS AND I AM NOT TO FEAR.  I AM GOING TO KEEP THE FAITH THAT I WAS GIVEN POWER OVER ALL MY ENEMIES AND THAT IN THE END TIMES ESPECIALLY WHEN GOD SENDS THE TWO WITNESSES AND THEY ARE PERFORMING SIGNS AND WONDERS THAT GOD WILL BE WORKING THROUGH US JUST THE SAME AS HE DID THROUGH THEM.  SO THOSE ARE THE TRADITIONS I WILL BE STANDING FAST IN, NOT FLYING AWAY TO 'ESCAPE' GODS WRATH.  

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

not through 'rapture' cause EVERY GOOD WORD AND WORK IS GOING TO BE REQUIRED and Can't SERVE if we have the day off.  

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.




 

[DeighAnn]

On 12/7/2021 at 11:10 PM, The Light said:

He doesn't return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords until IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBUALTION OF THOSE DAYS.

If I wrote something different,  then I apologize.  I 100 percent agree that He returns immediately after the trib of those days and not a second before.  

[DeighAnn]

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I believe this occurs in Heaven during the seven-year Tribulation on earth.

How and when did IT get there? 

I can CLEARLY, indisputably (and in GODS own WORDS) show where it is written when and how those who SLEEP/DIE get TO HEAVEN,

can you do the same for the 'church'?


As promised, 
Here is what God says about those who sleep/die

1  Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also WHICH SLEEP  in Jesus will God bring with him.

NOW I have clearly shown HOW THOSE WHO DIE GET TO HEAVEN AND HOW AND WHEN THEY RETURN


PLEASE do the same for 'the church'

 

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


THIS IS WHO I BELIEVE THE CHURCH TO BE AND WHEN I BELIEVE THE CHURCH TO BE RAPTURED CAUGHT UP

1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

See how clearly God puts forth truth?  You know what is really funny?  No one believes this about the SLEEPING/DEAD but they do about the CHURCH.  HOW INSANE IS THAT?

WHAT is written isn't believed and what isn't written is.  SOMEONE is doing a really good job.  It's not so hard to teach,  BUT TO UNTEACH, that's a whole other thing.  

If TIME HAD TO BE SHORTENED because Gods ELECT would be deceived then how are a bunch of people without teachers while the DECEIVER is present on the earth EVER going to come to the truth when WE CANT EVEN DO IT NOW?



 

 

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

Then what is the "Aaahhhh! Sniping." comment about? Why not just say, "Amen!" 

Isn't it best to build from consensus? 

Isn't the best consensus from which two can build the consensus with scripture? If two posters agree with each other but their agreement does not reconcile with God's word then what has been achieved? 

 

• The church is built from converts both Jewish and Gentile alike. 
• There is no "kingdom on earth" in the New Testament beside the one Jesus brought with him in his incarnation. To say otherwise 1) means there are two kingdoms and 2) begs a demand for proof thereof.
• According to Peter the resurrection is the promised throne. That's not evident anywhere in 2 Samuel 7 when the promises were first made but that is, in fact, what God inspired Peter to tell the Jews that day at Pentecost. 
• Daniel 12 is a find set of prophesies, but we are Christians, not Jews, and the canon of the New Testament informs us regarding the meaning of the OT prophesies. And the NT has some substantive things to say about Daniel. For example, Daniel 12 speaks about the end of time, the end time, the time of the end, and/or the end of the age. According to the New Testament, the end time and the last days (plural) began in the New Testament era; the ends of the ages had come upon them. And nearly every single New Testament writer wrote to that effect. I'll list the verses if you like. 

 

Here's three of them, 

1 Corinthians 10:11
"Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." 

Hebrews 1:1-2
"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

1 Peter 1:17-21
"If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.  For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." 

 

According to the New Testament the last days of Danel began in the first century. There are another eight or ten other verses telling us the same thing. So wherever you and I have consensus with scripture perhaps you'd consider amending the earlier post to reflect that consensus. 

"Sit in the Father's throne while He builds His Church." period (both Jews and Gentiles)

etcetera  

I refuse your logic. If the same kingdom is mentioned in two or more of its aspects, there are not two or more kingdoms. There is ONE kingdom but when it is named by its Owner, it is the Kingdom of God. When it is named by the type of rule it upholds, it is the kingdom of Heaven. When it is named after its Administrator it is a called "The kingdom of Jesus Christ". When it is apparent to men by the King casting out demons it is COME. When the King departs the kingdom is not GONE. It is still there but a Kingdom IN Mystery. Of the 7 parables in Matthew 13, six are present continuous. Only the seventh is future. When the Holy Spirit says in Colossians 1 ...

13 Who HATH delivered us from the power of darkness, and HATH translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

... it means He HATH (past tense). When Revelation 1:9 says that John is IN the kingdom, why, he is IN the kingdom. And since those of Colossians 1:13 and Revelation 1:9 are on earth, then the kingdom is on earth. But the SPHERE of rule is limited since the king dwells IN His subjects. But, the day is coming when the King will BODILY arrive on earth and with vast bloodshed, wrest the government of earth from the Gentiles and institute HEAVENLY RULES. Then the SAME kingdom you and I were translated into, and which we share with John, which is now in mystery, will be manifested and enlarged to fill the earth.

I do not know what the problem is with the "last days". Scripture regularly uses "day" to mean different things. In prophecy it is generally a year, But the prophet Hosea says that Israel's chastisement lasts 2 days, and they will be restored "AFTER" two days. That Israel will be resurrected is show in the same context because the Hosea who wrote it would "live in His SIGHT". That can only happen if Hosea, and his contemporaries are; (i) resurrected, and (ii) their God has Come to earth and can be seen. The "day" of restoration must be the same as the two "days". Whatever value you give to the two days, you must give to the day "after". History has shown that the 2 days can only be Millennia (Ps.90:4, 2nd Pet.3:8). But this is not all, the author of Hebrews, under inspiration, predicts a future Sabbath Rest for God's people. He measures this Sabbath by the time that Israel occupied the Good Land, but failed - just under 1,000 years. And the first Sabbath was the day "WITHIN" which Adam would die if he ate disobediently. Adam too was short of fulfilling God's Sabbath by 70 years.

The "last days" must be defined - and not by private interpretation.

[DeighAnn]

On 12/8/2021 at 4:27 AM, AdHoc said:

Rev.4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

PLEASE, first let's agree on what is written here.    PLEASE CORRECT WHERE you believe I GO WRONG 


Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

THIS IS THE LORD ALMIGHT GOD SITTING UPON THIS THRONE

 And HE THAT SAT was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks TO HIM THAT SAT on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

The four and twenty elders fall down before HIM THAT SAT  on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour andpower for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.

And I saw in the right hand OF HIM THAT SAT a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

And NO MAN IN HEAVEN, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, STOOD A LAMB as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


AND TO SUM ALL THOSE VERSES UP AND PUT EVERYTHING IN ITS ORDER SO WE CAN BE SURE OF WHO IS WHO

And HE came and took the book out of the right hand OF HIM THAT SAT  upon the throne.




Please tell me where I am going wrong

 John receives the message about when Christ will be revealed

He sends the message to the 7 churches and the message begins with

 A description of GOD in heaven being worshipped  -  PREVIOUS TO THE WORD MADE FLESH

Followed by Christ returning as the Lamb worthy to open the book - AFTER WORD MADE FLESH AND RISEN

The seals are opened  (which is required reading to make sure the mark is not taken)


Can we at least agree that the ONE on the throne isn't CHRIST  because HE is the ONE who comes and takes the book from the One on the throne?

WHICH do you find to be more specific and compelling?   All this information or the word 'here after'? 

Is it possible that 'here after' begins with a bit of the FOUNDATION set on which the here after takes place?


If I am correct, this is your belief?  

John is given a message on the Revealing of Christ
The churches are given their messages
The Lord is set upon a throne of his own
The church is raptured
There is weeping because no one is worthy to open the book (The book with the info on how to be caught up) 
The Lord who was set upon his own throne is made flesh and becomes the Lamb sacrificed
The Lamb comes and takes the book from HIMSELF
The seals are opened the information to be given to the churches
AND SOMEHOW  
The church that (has been raptured) is NOW given the information on how to be raptured. 

Am i CLOSE?  You will have to excuse me if I seem lost,  as I am.  No need to get to judgment until this circle can be worked out, would you agree?  

d

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

The problem is that modern-futurists say the kingdom was here but now it's gone. Some modern-futurists, that is because some deny the kingdom was ever actually here on earth because it was only "spiritual" back then (or now). Any way it is looked at the kingdom was here but now it's gone. It will come, or it will come again. That's two kiingdoms. It's not my logic that fails. 
 

 

Gotta go. come back soon.

I see your reasoning. 

Take care bro.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

PLEASE, first let's agree on what is written here.    PLEASE CORRECT WHERE you believe I GO WRONG 


Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

THIS IS THE LORD ALMIGHT GOD SITTING UPON THIS THRONE

 And HE THAT SAT was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks TO HIM THAT SAT on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

The four and twenty elders fall down before HIM THAT SAT  on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour andpower for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.

And I saw in the right hand OF HIM THAT SAT a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

And NO MAN IN HEAVEN, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, STOOD A LAMB as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


AND TO SUM ALL THOSE VERSES UP AND PUT EVERYTHING IN ITS ORDER SO WE CAN BE SURE OF WHO IS WHO

And HE came and took the book out of the right hand OF HIM THAT SAT  upon the throne.




Please tell me where I am going wrong

 John receives the message about when Christ will be revealed

He sends the message to the 7 churches and the message begins with

 A description of GOD in heaven being worshipped  -  PREVIOUS TO THE WORD MADE FLESH

Followed by Christ returning as the Lamb worthy to open the book - AFTER WORD MADE FLESH AND RISEN

The seals are opened  (which is required reading to make sure the mark is not taken)


Can we at least agree that the ONE on the throne isn't CHRIST  because HE is the ONE who comes and takes the book from the One on the throne?

WHICH do you find to be more specific and compelling?   All this information or the word 'here after'? 

Is it possible that 'here after' begins with a bit of the FOUNDATION set on which the here after takes place?


If I am correct, this is your belief?  

John is given a message on the Revealing of Christ
The churches are given their messages
The Lord is set upon a throne of his own
The church is raptured
There is weeping because no one is worthy to open the book (The book with the info on how to be caught up) 
The Lord who was set upon his own throne is made flesh and becomes the Lamb sacrificed
The Lamb comes and takes the book from HIMSELF
The seals are opened the information to be given to the churches
AND SOMEHOW  
The church that (has been raptured) is NOW given the information on how to be raptured. 

Am i CLOSE?  You will have to excuse me if I seem lost,  as I am.  No need to get to judgment until this circle can be worked out, would you agree?  

d

You have a strong case for God Almighty being the One in the throne. Equally strong is the case for our Lord Jesus. The description of the One in the throne is Jasper, the same as the first foundation of the New Jerusalem, and the general attribute of the walls. Now, in John Chapter 2 our Lord Jesus is the Temple of God and in Revelation 21 the City is the "Tabernacle of God". Added to this,

1. in verse 8 the designation is that of Jesus "was, is and is to come"
2. in verse 11 the designation, "Who created all things, is Jesus" (Jn.1:3)
3. in 5:5 it is definitely a Man - His origin is Judah
4. in the whole two Chapters a Man is sought.
5. In Chapter 5 He is already a Man
6. The designation "Lion of Judah" is in contrast to to Lamb. It shows a strong, warrior king. But as Root of Jesse His preeminence in creation is shown
7. The context of the Book of Revelation is the REVEALING of a Man - for it is to MEN that dominion of the earth is given

I cannot say you are wrong, but the weight of evidence is that the One on the Throne is Jesus. Added to this, the scroll is judgment upon the earth. This is unleashed in the last 1260 days of this age.

I will need time to consider your arguments.

 

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

PLEASE, first let's agree on what is written here.    PLEASE CORRECT WHERE you believe I GO WRONG 


Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

THIS IS THE LORD ALMIGHT GOD SITTING UPON THIS THRONE

 And HE THAT SAT was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks TO HIM THAT SAT on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

The four and twenty elders fall down before HIM THAT SAT  on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour andpower for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.

And I saw in the right hand OF HIM THAT SAT a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

And NO MAN IN HEAVEN, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, STOOD A LAMB as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


AND TO SUM ALL THOSE VERSES UP AND PUT EVERYTHING IN ITS ORDER SO WE CAN BE SURE OF WHO IS WHO

And HE came and took the book out of the right hand OF HIM THAT SAT  upon the throne.




Please tell me where I am going wrong

 John receives the message about when Christ will be revealed

He sends the message to the 7 churches and the message begins with

 A description of GOD in heaven being worshipped  -  PREVIOUS TO THE WORD MADE FLESH

Followed by Christ returning as the Lamb worthy to open the book - AFTER WORD MADE FLESH AND RISEN

The seals are opened  (which is required reading to make sure the mark is not taken)


Can we at least agree that the ONE on the throne isn't CHRIST  because HE is the ONE who comes and takes the book from the One on the throne?

WHICH do you find to be more specific and compelling?   All this information or the word 'here after'? 

Is it possible that 'here after' begins with a bit of the FOUNDATION set on which the here after takes place?


If I am correct, this is your belief?  

John is given a message on the Revealing of Christ
The churches are given their messages
The Lord is set upon a throne of his own
The church is raptured
There is weeping because no one is worthy to open the book (The book with the info on how to be caught up) 
The Lord who was set upon his own throne is made flesh and becomes the Lamb sacrificed
The Lamb comes and takes the book from HIMSELF
The seals are opened the information to be given to the churches
AND SOMEHOW  
The church that (has been raptured) is NOW given the information on how to be raptured. 

Am i CLOSE?  You will have to excuse me if I seem lost,  as I am.  No need to get to judgment until this circle can be worked out, would you agree?  

d

Let us talk about the Church being raptured. Four scriptures seem to promise a pre-tribulation rapture. They are, Luke 21:36, Philippians 3:10-14 where the "up-calling" (lit. Gk.) is a PRIZE, 1st Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10. Equally, four scriptures show believers passing through the Great Tribulation. Revelation 7 where a great company connected to Jesus come out of the Great Tribulation, Revelation 12 where "those having the testimony of Jesus Christ" are chased by the Dragon for 1260 days, Revelation 13:7 where the Beast, who reigns for those last 1260 days "makes war with, and OVERCOMES the saints", and Revelation 18:4 where God's people are in Mystery Babylon and receive of her plagues.

What is your solution?