Two questions for pretribulationists

[The Light]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Yes.... that is what pretrib teaches, without justification, as there are no scriptures to back this up. Is there anywhere in Scripture where the twelve tribes are called 'saints'? It's an honest question brother.... I can't think of one, though there may be.

No, I don't believe that's what pretrib teaches. I believe pretrib teaches that the tribulation saints are those that are left behind.

Here is a scripture that mentions Israel as saints.

Psalm 148

14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the Lord.

Here is the Church being told that they will be kings and priests.

Rev 1

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Here are those kings and priests in heaven before the seals are opened.

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

God turns His attention to the twelve tribes, the seed of the woman, after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That's why there are 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest.

[The Light]

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 The 70th week of Daniel is history, already fulfilled. Nothing in Daniel 9:26b-27 mentions anything at all about the End Times.

Already fulfilled? I don't think think so.

Can you tell me where these things were fulfilled?

Dan

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

44. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 6: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events?

Lists the seven specific prophecies found in Daniel 9:26b-27, and tests whether the belief that they will be fulfilled in the future can be substantiated by other biblical End Time prophecies.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

45. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically?

Tests the view that the seven prophesied events were fulfilled during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. Also, explains the reason for the time-gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

I read the links. They were not correct.

[appy]

 

The above quote does not sound right. The creed of Islam is NOT identical to the Christian faith. Islam and Christianity are two opposing religions. They are totally incompatible. Islamic countries demand that Christians renounce their faith in Christ and adhere to the Islamic belief system. Those nine people did NOT deny their faith in Jesus. They refused to become Muslims.

Islam does not believe Jesus is God's son, neither do they believe he died on the cross. Nor do they follow or believe in the other core essential beliefs of the Christian faith.

[DeighAnn]

45 minutes ago, appy said:

 

The above quote does not sound right. The creed of Islam is NOT identical to the Christian faith. Islam and Christianity are two opposing religions. They are totally incompatible. Islamic countries demand that Christians renounce their faith in Christ and adhere to the Islamic belief system. Those nine people did NOT deny their faith in Jesus. They refused to become Muslims.

Islam does not believe Jesus is God's son, neither do they believe he died on the cross. Nor do they follow or believe in the other core essential beliefs of the Christian faith.

Isn't that what was originally posted?  People who wouldn't deny Christ were murdered?

 

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

This term is used by Dr Thomas Ice....the big Kahuna of pretribulation, and millions of his followers use it.

 

The church, believers in Christ

 

The church, believers in Christ, those have "the testimony of Jesus Christ"

 

The church, believers in Christ

 

Yes....they are God's people. 

 

These are the 'earth dwellers, those who dwell on the earth..... the unbelievers.'

 

Oh, they do try though. I've heard more "twists" of Scripture than the 50's dance era to Chubby Checker. To say that's 'honest'   well.......?

Aaahhhh! "The Church"? But the Bible, in each case, pointedly does not call them that. It may be termed semantics, but "saints" who must pass through the "Tribulation" seems more correct than Church. You see, in Matthew 24 we have an interesting set of circumstances. Here is the text so I can comment on it. 

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The context is the "coming of the Son of Man" (v.37, 39, 42, 43, 44 etc,.). The moral conditions on earth at the time of the coming will be as the days of Noah. The flood takes the unexpecting who do not avail themselves of the Ark. The Greek for "taken" is "airoo". It is used in John 1:29 where the sin of the world is "taken" away by violent death. But then the subject changes because the two in the field and at the mill in verses 40 & 41 are modified by "Watch THEREFORE" of verse 42. They must be disciples for our Lord says "ye". And the Greek for "taken" changes dramatically to "paralambano" meaning, "to take with as an intimate companion". So the "taking" of a disciple "as an intimate companion" breaks up a HOUSE.

The HOUSE of disciples can only be the Church. And if the house is broken up, it is no longer a house. This is again shown in the word for Church - "Ekklesia". It means; "the GATHERING of the select ones". But now the inhabitants are SCATTERED. One is taken and another left! Could this be the reason that:

1. The word Ekklesia is never used again after Chapter 3 in Revelations because the "gathering" of saints is overturned and the House "broken"?
2. The pre-tribers have a case, but only for some who were "intimate companions"?
3. The post-tribers also have a case, but only for those "left"? 

What is your take on the matter?

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The tribulation saints are, quite simply, saints living during the tribulation. We believe that the church will be raptured before the tribulation, but the Bible indicates that a great number of people during the tribulation will place their faith in Jesus Christ. In his vision of heaven, John sees a vast number of these tribulation saints who have been martyred by the Antichrist: “There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). When John asks who they are, he is told, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

The tribulation will be a time of great trouble for the wicked, because of God’s judgments. It will also be a time of great persecution for the believers—or saints—because of the Antichrist’s persecution (Revelation 13:7). Daniel saw the Antichrist “waging war against the saints and defeating them” (Daniel 7:21). Of course, the saints’ eternal salvation is secure: Daniel also saw that “the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom” (Daniel 7:22; cf. Revelation 14:12–13).

The tribulation saints will hear the gospel from several possible sources. The first is the Bible; there will be many copies of the Bible left in the world, and when God’s judgments begin to fall, many people will likely react by finding a Bible to see if prophecies are being fulfilled. Many of the tribulation saints will also have heard the gospel from the two witnesses (Revelation 11:1–13). The Bible says these two individuals “will prophesy for 1,260 days [three and a half years]” (verse 3) and perform great miracles (verse 6). And then there are the 144,000 Jewish missionaries who are redeemed and sealed by God during the tribulation (Revelation 7:1–8). Immediately following the description of their sealing in Revelation 7, we read of the multitudes of tribulation saints who are saved from every corner of the world (verses 9–17).

The tribulation saints will serve their Lord Jesus Christ in the midst of desperate surroundings. Faithful to the end, many of these believers will die for their faith. But in their death, they overcome; “They overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death” (Revelation 12:11). And God will reward them: “He who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes” (Revelation 7:15–17).

We praise the Lord that the great day of trouble will also be a great day of grace. Even as God is meting out His just punishment on an unbelieving world, He will be restoring Israel to faith and extending grace to all who believe, both Jew and Gentile. God has always been in the business of saving people, and that salvation will still be available during the tribulation. Don’t wait until then, however; receive Jesus now (John 1:12).

https://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation-saints.html

These are nice thoughts, but how do you reconcile them with the Holy Spirit's plain and unambiguous statement in Revelation 13:7 that the saints are "overcome" by the Beast. This cannot be martyrdom because a war was fought. And it cannot mean death because ... 

1. in Chapter 7, those who have Palms, and are washed by the blood of the Lamb came through the Great Tribulation
2. in Chapter 12 those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" survive by fleeing and must be "helped by the earth" to even survive

Would you not agree that this is the total defeat of the saints in what they stand for.

[JoeCanada]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 5:9-10 is an unfortunate error made by translators of the KJV,NKJV, WEB, YLT.

The majority of translations....NLT, ESV, CSB, NASB95, NASB20, NET, RSV, ASV, DBY, HNV.....say: 

You are worthy to take the scroll

and to open its seals,

because you were slaughtered,

and you purchased[fn] people[fn]

for God by your blood

from every tribe and language

and people and nation.

You made them a kingdom[fn]

and priests to our God,

and they will reign on the earth

[JoeCanada]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Psalm 148

14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the Lord.

And He has lifted up a horn for His people,
Praise for all His godly ones,
For the sons of Israel, a people near to Him.
[fn]Praise [fn]the LORD!............ Ps 148:14 NASB

[JoeCanada]

8 hours ago, appy said:

 

The above quote does not sound right. The creed of Islam is NOT identical to the Christian faith. Islam and Christianity are two opposing religions. They are totally incompatible. Islamic countries demand that Christians renounce their faith in Christ and adhere to the Islamic belief system. Those nine people did NOT deny their faith in Jesus. They refused to become Muslims.

Islam does not believe Jesus is God's son, neither do they believe he died on the cross. Nor do they follow or believe in the other core essential beliefs of the Christian faith.

Hey appy,

"9 Christians were murdered for refusing to recite the Islamic Creed...." which is: 

The Creed of Islam.  "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah." This is the Shahada (witness) and expresses the very heart of the Islamic creed.

Anyone who cannot recite this is not a Muslim......sooo, to recite this means you are a Muslim, does it not?

For a Christian to recite this.... they are denying their faith in Jesus Christ.

"Those nine people did NOT deny their faith in Jesus. They refused to become Muslims."........... hence, why they were murdered. They refused to deny Jesus which one would have to, to become a Muslim by reciting their creed.

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Aaahhhh! "The Church"? But the Bible, in each case, pointedly does not call them that. It may be termed semantics, but "saints" who must pass through the "Tribulation" seems more correct than Church. You see, in Matthew 24 we have an interesting set of circumstances. Here is the text so I can comment on it. 

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The context is the "coming of the Son of Man" (v.37, 39, 42, 43, 44 etc,.). The moral conditions on earth at the time of the coming will be as the days of Noah. The flood takes the unexpecting who do not avail themselves of the Ark. The Greek for "taken" is "airoo". It is used in John 1:29 where the sin of the world is "taken" away by violent death. But then the subject changes because the two in the field and at the mill in verses 40 & 41 are modified by "Watch THEREFORE" of verse 42. They must be disciples for our Lord says "ye". And the Greek for "taken" changes dramatically to "paralambano" meaning, "to take with as an intimate companion". So the "taking" of a disciple "as an intimate companion" breaks up a HOUSE.

The HOUSE of disciples can only be the Church. And if the house is broken up, it is no longer a house. This is again shown in the word for Church - "Ekklesia". It means; "the GATHERING of the select ones". But now the inhabitants are SCATTERED. One is taken and another left! Could this be the reason that:

1. The word Ekklesia is never used again after Chapter 3 in Revelations because the "gathering" of saints is overturned and the House "broken"?
2. The pre-tribers have a case, but only for some who were "intimate companions"?
3. The post-tribers also have a case, but only for those "left"? 

What is your take on the matter?

The "Saints" represent the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11, not the Church on earth as many believe and teach

Revelation 11:7 & Revelation 13:7 are parallel teachings of the same event, representing the final week of earth's existence

Revelation 13:7 is the prelude into what will take place, Revelation 11:7 is the actual event taking place

Revelation 11:7KJV

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Edited December 14, 2021 by truth7t7