Biblican Posted December 22, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2021 8 hours ago, Josheb said: So let me ask once again for the sake of clarification: The only reason Jesus was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice is because of sin. The entire foreknowledge of Christ as the perfect sacrifice is dependent upon the existence of sin. His incarnation, his life, death, and resurrection, all of it is solely dependent upon the existence of sin. Had sin not occurred there would be no reason or purpose for Jesus to be foreknown as the sacrifice, no reason for him coming to earth as a human, no need for his death, no need for his overcoming death, and no reason for any resurrection. It is all predicated upon the existence of sin; the entire paradigm is dependent upon the existence of sin, without which there would be no other reason, need, or purpose. Is that what I am supposed to understand as your point of view? According to the foreshadows and typologies in the Old Covenant that were orchestrated throughout God's word concerning the Messiah, I would have to say yes. They point to Jesus' atonement for the remission of sin which was His purpose in coming to redeem mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted December 22, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 14 hours ago, Biblican said: The impression I got from your first posts is that you were saying that the soul and the physical body it inhabits are the same and one could not exist without the other. I apologize if I misunderstood you. Then you haven't told me anything I didn't already know. The soul inhabits the body and when the physical body is destroyed the soul can operate without it. The soul itself is it own body so to speak. I know they can hear see etc, as I mention I know of one who received Jesus while he was out of his body when he died on the operating table. He didn't need his physical body to hear, see think, and so forth. The soul is the person of anyone, the human as you put it. The word soul is also associated with God and Jesus, as they have "persons," but the word soul is not associated with the Holy Spirit in both the Hebrew and the Greek. When you say the word disembodied, it means that the soul is disembodied from its physical house. While it may have a body of its own, it is no longer in its physical body. Samuel is an example of a disembodied soul because he was no longer in his physical body. I said that the soul is the impression of the body it inhabits and that is why they are recognized as the people they were when they appear after death. It is a logical conclusion based on the fact that the physical body is the result of genes, etc. The soul is made by God and formed in the womb (Isaiah 57:16, Jere. 38:16,1:5). If the soul is made by God to look like the body it inhabits, then that does not make sense if the body is deformed through birth defects. God makes everything perfect, so the soul which is initially is made perfect would have to be subject to and reflect the flesh it indwells. There exists no immortal soul that remains self-identically permanent through time. At death there is a complete loss of subjective self-identity. The term "soul" is not used to mean a transcendent self in the original language of scripture. It is an artifact of reason we project onto it. "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." 2 Corinthians 5:17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted December 22, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 9 minutes ago, Josheb said: Clarify and/or explain that please. Sure, we will no longer identify with this self/soul/creature when the body dies. A new soul is made with a new type of body during the Resurrection. The only bridge between the two is the house we made using the Fruits of the Spirit. We only have a little taste now in the Holy Ghost of what will be fully realized during the next age of Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted December 22, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Josheb said: Do you have any scripture to support any of these statements? I am particularly interested in the statements saying the self is gone but before I dive into a dissent I'd like to understand how this position was reached, scripturally if you can make that case. Please note I have aready addressed part of this matter of the self in a couple of earlier posts under this op. You have said there is a complete loss of subjective self-identity. You have said a new soul is made with a new (type of) body. Loss of self-identity (what does that mean?). Loss of subjective self-identity (what does that mean?). A completely new soul is made. A new type of body is made. These are the claims being made. Are these in fact what you mean for us to understand you to be saying? If so, then will you provide scripture stating each of these positions and if there are no such statements in scripture then by what verses is this deduced (inferentially)? Perhaps I can help you avoid some what I think are obvious errors. You've said there is a loss subjective self-identity. This implies there is an objective self-identity, or an objective self in which we have some form of identity. Additionally, if the self is gone, if there is a complete loss and it no longer exists then whatever new self is made is no longer the same person; it is a completely new person. What you're saying is you will no longer be Scott and I will no longer be Josh; we will be some other self. So as you endeavor to make the scriptural case for those four points listed above keep these concerns in mind. Thanks in advance for the time and effort. Hi, this is not the forum to write an essay. Look within. If the Word has become your heart then all this should be apparent. If someone really understands something they should be able to sum it up in a few sentences. I am not going to spell out the entirety of Christian doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted December 22, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Josheb said: Cop out. It has yet to be shown that anything posted in the last three posts is Christian in any way. The facts in evidence are that 1) statements were posted, 2) a request for clarification and or explanation was posted, 3) the response as "Sure....", 4) scriptural support was requested, 5) the response was completely avoidant. This is a discussion board, Scott. People discuss their respective views. You have been invited to do exactly that. I am sorry I misspoke, it is not apparent. The meaning of the English word for "soul" has a lot of baggage that is non-Christian. It is like proving a negative and would be very tedious. A good avenue for your study would be learning the Hebrew word for soul "nephesh" and how Paul used the word "psyche." "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44 Soul does not equal spirit. Soul equals living creature with a body. Note: debate about the meanings of words is not on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 22, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.43 Reputation: 9,018 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 22, 2021 17 minutes ago, Josheb said: Cop out. It has yet to be shown that anything posted in the last three posts is Christian in any way. The facts in evidence are that 1) statements were posted, 2) a request for clarification and or explanation was posted, 3) the response as "Sure....", 4) scriptural support was requested, 5) the response was completely avoidant. This is a discussion board, Scott. People discuss their respective views. You have been invited to do exactly that. And ppointing this sort of thing out to another member 'once' is sufficient. Move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted December 22, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Josheb said: ALL of that has ALL already been covered by many others in the posts under this op. Nothing new is being added to the conversation with the contents of this post. None of is explains the statements I asked about either. Nice red herring. No one has asked for debate, and others can decide for themselves how they discuss their views. All that was requested was a clarification and/or explanation for statements posted in a discussion board. You will either discuss them or you won't, and if choosing not to do so then just don't. EVERYONE already in the thread knows of 1 Corinthians 15:44. EVERYONE already in the thread posted about the overlaps and distinctions between soul and spirit. EVERYONE already in the thread is aware of the Hebrew nephesh and ruah, and the Greek psyche and pneuma. All that is asked of you is to clarify and explain those four points found stated in your posts. Loss of self-identity (what does that mean?). Loss of subjective self-identity (what does that mean?). A completely new soul is made. A new type of body is made. If you don't want to discuss them then don't. It is not even necessary to say, "I do not want to discuss them"! All that need be done is silence. But it is my hope you'll show up for the conversation and show up with plenty of scripture to support your views. Hello, hitting the books and studying is your best option to learn about such a deep and turbulent topic. Etymology of the word "nephesh" is a good place to start. I am not the expert on the subject. That is why I quoted scholars. Scripture does not cover this topic adequately in the English translation. Which highlights the pitfalls of quoting scripture without knowing the true intent of the meanings. Edited December 22, 2021 by Scott Free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted December 22, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2021 13 hours ago, Josheb said: Can flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God? Do you think anything that remains corruptible can inherit that kingdom? No, that's why we have Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted December 22, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2021 13 hours ago, Josheb said: Alas, it's not complicated. There are no bodiless souls in the Bible! And, Bib, apologies aren't something the New Testament asserts, either. The only time anyone in the NT apologizes is when pagans apologize for abusing believers (look it up). The Biblical standard is confession, repentance (purposing to change), making amend s where possible, forgiveness, and reconciliation. If you truly want to be a first century apostolic Christian then that is what you'll practice, not apologies. The world does apologies. God's standards are much higher than the world's. Never said any such thing. Neither I nor the Bible say any such thing. Neither the Bible nor I say any such thing. Anecdotal stories are not scripture. They most certainly are not the practice of a first century apostolic Christian. This op is about humans, not God. When I say there are no disembodied human souls, I mean there are no bodiless human souls (or spirits) in the Bible. It IS a physical body! The word "physical" means those things that can be perceived through the senses, or those things which have material qualities. If a thing has mass, then it has material qualities. It may not be the same material that you and I now have but it is a physical, or material existence, nonetheless. It is not an all-or-nothing or either-or creation, Bib. Let go of simple dichotomies and realize the fullness of what Paul wrote, 1 Corinthians 15:39-44 "All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also, is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." Not all flesh is the same flesh. There are heavenly bodies (plural), and there are earthly bodies (plural). But there are no bodiless human souls in the Bible. They all have some sort of body, some sort of mass, some sort of material being, some sort of physical existence. And I said that is nonsense. I asked for scripture reporting that statement and received none. So... If you wouldn't mind answering the two questions I asked at the end of my previous post maybe we can get a little further in agreement. Can flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God? Do you think anything that remains corruptible can inherit that kingdom? Apologizing is asking forgiveness for a misunderstanding. It is not unBiblical to apologize, but I assure you I won't do it again here. You were using the word disembodied which is misleading. Disembodied means a soul that has been disconnected from its physical human body. I would not use that word in conjunction with what you are trying to convey. Souls do not have bodies they are their own body once they have been released from the physical body. And it is obvious from the example we have with Samuel and Saul, that Samuel can hear see and think without being in a human body. This is confirmed by the testimonies of people who can function after death and have been returned to their human houses. The study of the soul and spirit is important because it helps us understand the Divinity of Jesus and even the Trinity. If you do not believe that we can recognize souls because they are impressions of their physical bodies, then how do you think their souls end up looking like their physical counterparts, as in the case of Samuel and Saul. Saul obviously recognized him, and he must have looked the same when he was in his human body. I gave you the scriptures regarding how souls are made and placed in the body by God. If He models the soul to look like the body that will be formed, then would He form a soul to look like a body that has been deformed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted December 22, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 280 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 13,146 Content Per Day: 9.58 Reputation: 13,736 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2021 To me at least, all of this is doing more to muddy the waters on the subject than to clarify it. If a person believes something then maybe to discuss this rather than what something isn't is the better way to a clear answer. For instance: How would you simply answer the question of what happens to us in concrete terms ? Not posing this to only one poster but to everyone. I find much of this discussion very abstract so far as getting to the bottom of it. We can talk all day about how we see the soul. We already know what happens to the body. I mean, if we all wait just a little while yet, there won't be any conjecture about any of it. I have always felt there were a few details on the subject I would like to know. Simple bible based explanations all seem to be overidden by too much looping around on definitions and playing about with the meaning of "body" and that souls have bodies that go on as soul bodies. It's all beginning to sound a bit ridiculous to me. What actually happens at death? C'mon people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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