The True Meaning of Christmas

[Biblican]

4 hours ago, Bawb said:

There's a gigantic portion of the world's population who give gifts on December 25th who do not believe in Yeshua. That is a reflection of what the day is really about.

It does not matter what you or I think...

How does YeHoVah see all of the pagan rites of Christ-Mass?

Does He like abominated pagan practices?

Furthermore, what you say about judging is NOT scriptural. Please see below:

1. Christians Must Judge

Scripture specifically instructs Christians to judge other Christians.

In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul commands the church "not to associate with sexually immoral people," which to obey, requires making a judgment. He further writes, "Are you not to judge those inside (the church)? . . . 'Expel the wicked person from among you.'"

So not only should Christians judge other believers, they should also discipline them based on those judgments.

Similarly, Jesus says in John 7:24, "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly."

Clearly, Jesus expects us to judge, but simply wants us to judge correctly, using proper standards.

2. Don't Apply a Double-Standard

Those who quote Matthew 7:1 as evidence that Christians should never judge need to read the context of that verse. Yes, Jesus says, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged," but he goes on to say, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

In other words, don't apply a double-standard and judge someone for a sin you're equally, or even more guilty, of committing. Instead, Jesus says, "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." So the solution isn't to refrain from judging; it's to fix yourself so you can help fix others.

 

Regarding judging, I am referring to Paul's instructions not to judge other Christians in regard as to how they prefer to worship God, which is different from assessing someone's moral failings and correcting them in a spirit of meekness because we are all subject to moral failings. 

[Bawb]

4 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

But if accurate the date would be on February or march....not December 25th. The date wasnt moved (and theres lots of documented evidence to show the date moved) to december 25th to much, much, later. Christians moved it to avoid persecution. Celebrating it on the actual day made them targets...celebrating it on the same day as a popular roman holiday and the romans assumed they were celebrating their holiday.

I stated Biblically supported facts, which you still have not. That fact remains. It's also still pagan, and not relevant to the true birth of Yeshua.

Again, Did His Disciples/Apostles celebrate His birthday? You still have not answered that question. Would this not have been in the Acts of the Apostles if Yeshua wanted it to be celebrated?

The fact is, Romans moved it to December 25th because they wanted to appease the other pagans. The "Christians" wanted no part of syncretizing...

Your "proof" is only supported by your opinion. No facts, no scripture as I expected from you. At least you're consistent.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Bawb

[Biblican]

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

And how do you know?

Historical record, His behavior wasn't exactly Christ-like in the beginning, but of course it could be that he was just a slow grower.

[Bawb]

38 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

There are a lot of issues that you bring up for discussion, but look at the OP, it is about the truth meaning about Christmas.

 

The "issue" is you fail to see that the truth is it's still pagan and has nothing to do with Yeshua. It was a syncretized pagan celebration when it started and always will be.

[Biblican]

1 minute ago, Bawb said:

The "issue" is you fail to see that the truth is it's still pagan and has nothing to do with Yeshua. It was a syncretized pagan celebration when it started and always will be.

Today Christians celebrate Jesus' birth, it would be pagan if we were celebrating a pagan god but we are not. The point is that because of Christmas the pagan world is reminded that Jesus came. That's a good thing.  People have come to Jesus listening to the words of Christians carols, which are some of the most beautiful worship songs ever written. As I said before you are obviously not thinking like an evangelist. 

[Bawb]

14 minutes ago, Biblican said:

Prior to Constantine Christians were being martyred because they would not deny their faith in Jesus and worship Caesar as a God. Constantine stopped that.

Christmas means the birth of Jesus to Christians today, and that's what matters. At least Constantine did not deny Jesus' deity like today's Jehovah's Witnesses or add requirements to salvation like the Mormons or preach another gospel like the Seventh Day Adventists.  And of course God would use Constantine to prevent the Jews from building another temple because the second temple was destroyed because God was putting an end to that system of worship  which was no longer needed. Every time the Jews tried to rebuild the temple God prevented it, sometimes supernaturally.

What matters is what YeHoVah thinks about paganized worship. It's called syncretism. The birth of "Jesus" has nothing to do with the RCC's unholy day.

Just a little information on the "temple and system" that is no longer needed. You will also note, it states NOTHING about the RCC instituted Christ-Mass:

Two Future Temples

Ezekiel 43:27 - …your priests will offer your burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar, and I will accept you, declares the Lord.

Zechariah 6:12 - Here is the Man whose name is the Branch, and he will…build the temple of the Lord.

Matthew 24:15 - When you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…

The Temple Mount in Jerusalem is the location of both the First and Second Jewish Temples. At the present time there is no Temple on the Temple Mount. Instead, two Muslim shrines, the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, stand there. However, the Jewish people still consider the Temple Mount to be the most sacred place for Jews in all the world. No wonder the Temple Mount is a political powder keg, and must be part of any formula for peace in the Middle East!

According to the Bible, a Temple will once again stand on the Temple Mount. How and when the Temple Mount will be available for a future Temple remains to be seen. Biblical prophecy buffs have proposed all kinds of potential scenarios for how all of this could take place—everything from earthquakes to explosives to the collapse of the Temple Mount platform!

Some well-meaning Christians have felt that the biblical predictions of a future Temple should be spiritualized, saying that these prophecies of a future Temple refer to the Church, or to the individual Christian. Indeed, 1 Corinthians 3:16 makes it quite clear that the Church, as the body of Christ, is the spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit. And in 1 Corinthians 6:19 we are taught that the physical body of every individual believer is to be honored and kept clean, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit. But these wonderful New Testament truths do not alter the biblical predictions of a literal future Temple in Jerusalem.

The question gets more complicated when we realize that the Bible teaches that two Temples are yet to stand on Temple Mount in the future. First will come a Tribulation Temple, then a Millennium Temple. Let's look at the Scriptures about these future Temples.

The Tribulation Temple

Jesus referred to the Tribulation Temple in His Olivet Discourse: “When you see the 'abomination of desolation' which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” (Matthew 24:15-16). This decoration was also predicted by the prophet Daniel.  Obviously, there must be a literal Temple for the desecration of the holy place to take place. So we must look back in history to see whether or not this prophecy has already been fulfilled in a past Temple.

Subsequent to Daniel's prophecy, the Temple was desecrated when Antiochus IV (175-164BC) of Syria invaded Judea. He declared that daily sacrifices must cease, and he set up an “abomination of desolation” by erecting a statue of the Greek god, Zeus, in the holy place of the Temple. Daniel predicted these historical events in Daniel 11:21-35. Notice particularly: “forces from him will arise, desecrate the temple fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation” (v31). But this inter-testamental desecration and fulfillment of the Daniel 11 prophecy occurred long before the Lord Jesus gave His Olivet Discourse, in which He indicated that the “abomination of desolation” was yet to occur.

However, the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV was not the only “abomination of desolation” predicted by the prophet Daniel, for in Daniel 12:11 we read of another “abomination of desolation.” The context of this other “abomination of desolation” is the end times, as verse 9 makes clear: “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.” Thus, in His Olivet Discourse, it is clear that our Lord was speaking of this future “abomination of desolation.” This future desecration was also what the apostle Paul had in mind when he wrote of the future “man of lawlessness” who will “take his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

The desecration and destruction of the Temple by Rome in 70AD was certainly subsequent to our Lord's Olivet Discourse, and even subsequent to the writings of Paul. Was this the fulfillment of the desecration prophecy of Daniel 12? Were the prophetic “end times” fulfilled when the Roman armies overran Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple that had been built by Herod the Great? The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was certainly a partial fulfillment of this prophecy, as Luke's account of our Lord's Olivet Discourse makes quite clear: “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand…and they will fall by the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” (Luke 21:20-24).

The fact that “the times of the Gentiles” have been in effect ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD indicates that a partial fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse prophecy has taken place. However, the complete fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse prophecy awaits events leading up to the Lord's return, as the contexts of the Olivet Discourse and Daniel 12 make abundantly clear.

In Matthew 24 the Lord went on to say that the tribulation of those days will be greater and more devastating than any time of trouble in the history of the world (v21). The Roman conquest of 70 AD was a time of great trouble, but clearly not the worst calamity in all of world history. Furthermore, the Lord spoke of His return to this earth “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (v29). So the Temple that the Lord had in mind in Matthew 24:15, where the abomination of desolation will be set up, could not have been the Temple that was destroyed by the Romans. A literal future Temple will be built, and it will be taken over by the forces of evil during the future Tribulation period.

When will the Tribulation Temple be built? We don’t know. At present, several groups in Israel are carefully preparing Temple articles and priestly garments according to the instructions given in Exodus. How all these efforts will fit into the construction of the Tribulation Temple is unknown, and whether or not the Ark of the Covenant will be found and become part of the scenario is still unknown. But prophetic Scripture clearly requires that a functioning Temple be present for the period of Great Tribulation.

The Millennium Temple

Chapters 40-48 of Ezekiel's prophecy contain a grand and detailed vision of a glorious Temple to be built at some future time. Ezekiel was given the precise dimensions of this future Temple (chapters 40-42), and he foresaw the glory of the Lord returning to this Temple (chapter 43). He was given details of the function of the priests and Levites and the order of worship in this future Temple (chapters 43-46), and he was shown the layout for the whole area surrounding the future temple complex (chapter 45). Chapters 47-48 give the future topographical changes in the Jerusalem area and the political reorganization with the 12 tribes of Israel, completing the amazing prophetic vision given to Ezekiel.

If we are practicing good principles of interpretation, we must conclude that the glorious Temple of Ezekiel's vision is a literal Temple to be built in the future. Since Ezekiel's vision of the destruction of the First Jewish Temple literally came true, right down to the very details (Ezekiel 7-12), it is reasonable to assume that Ezekiel's vision of the future Temple will be fulfilled literally, to the very details.

And there are many details! The fact that there are so many details, including the exact dimensions, makes it very difficult for those who attempt to interpret this future temple as a “spiritualized” reference to the Church today. Why would God include so many elaborate physical details of plans and functions that have no bearing whatsoever on the Church as the temple of the Holy Spirit? A more proper and consistent interpretation indicates that Ezekiel's Temple is a literal temple that will be built for the Lord's literal kingdom here on this earth when He returns. According to Revelation 20:6, His kingdom will last for 1000 years, and the Temple of Ezekiel's vision will serve as the center of divine government during the Millennium.

While this Millennium Temple will be built in the same general location as the Tribulation Temple, there are several indications that it will not be the same Temple. First of all, many topographical and geological changes will occur in the Jerusalem area when the Lord returns. Zechariah 14 indicates that the Mount of Olives will split in half, and a large valley will form in the middle. In addition, Ezekiel 47 indicates that fresh subterranean water will continuously flow from the Temple area in Jerusalem down to the Dead Sea in the east and down to the Mediterranean Sea in the west. Scripture does not tell us whether or not these “earth-moving“ events will destroy the Tribulation Temple, but they are certainly of a magnitude that would do tremendous damage to any buildings standing on the Temple Mount.

Furthermore, the dimensions of the Millennium Temple complex are on such a grand scale that it would appear that the Millennium Temple will have to be built after the topographical and geological changes take place. Therefore, the future Millennium Temple must be a different building than the future Tribulation Temple. In the messianic passage of Zechariah 6:9-15, the coming Messiah is given the title of “the Branch“ and unites the offices of King and Priest. He will personally direct the building of a future Temple. Clearly, this future literal Temple of Zechariah's prophecy will be the Millennium Temple, built for Christ's 1000-year reign on earth.

This prophecy should not be interpreted as a “spiritual” reference to the Church today! Zechariah and his contemporaries understood this prophecy to be a promise of a literal Temple and a literal throne where the Messiah will literally reign over His kingdom on earth - with no competition!

Zechariah's prophecy was not fulfilled at the first coming of Christ, because the King and His kingdom were rejected. That generation did not obey the Lord. But at the second coming of Christ a godly remnant of Jews will come from “far off“ (v15) - from around the world - who have recognized Jesus as their Messiah and trusted Him as their Savior. They will welcome the return of their Messiah. This remnant of the Jewish people is the “all Israel“ mentioned in Romans 11:26: “And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written, 'The deliverer will come from Zion, and turn godlessness away from Jacob…'“ These Jewish believers will participate with Gentile believers in the building of the Millennium Temple (v15).

What an encouragement Zechariah's prophecy would have been to the Jews of his day, who were rebuilding the Temple that had been destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. Their rebuilt Temple was not much of a structure compared to the glory of Solomon's Temple, but it foreshadowed the building of a great and glorious future Temple, where the Messiah would rule and reign supreme!

The Question of Sacrifices

Some Christians have problems with a literal interpretation of Ezekiel's Temple vision because of the implied reinstitution of animal sacrifices (Ezekiel 43-46). Wouldn't a literal Temple with literal sacrifices contradict the clear teaching of Hebrews 10:10-14? At first consideration, this seems to be an insurmountable theological and hermeneutical barrier to a literal Temple. It is important to notice, however, that in Hebrews 10 the author is not saying that there can never be animal sacrifices in the future. The thrust of his argument is that animal sacrifices could never take away sin, The animal sacrifices of the Old Testament period pointed forward, prophetically portraying the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. If animal sacrifice is reinstated during the time of the millennial kingdom, these sacrifices would look backward, in a retrospective and instructive way, commemorating an already accomplished salvation. They would not remove sins any more than the sacrifices in Old Testament times removed sins, but they would remind believers and instruct unbelievers of the cost of redemption from sin.

During the millennial kingdom, the Church and the Old Testament saints will reign with Christ in their sinless new bodies, but human beings with sinful human natures will be living on the earth at that time as well. Some of these people will be believers, but some will be unbelievers. Every person coming out of the Tribulation and entering the Millennium will be a believer, but some of those who are born during the 1000 years of the kingdom will not become believers. Because sin will be present, the Lord will need to “rule with a rod of iron” during the Millennium. (See Revelation 2:27; 12:5 and 19:15.)

And because there will be unbelievers, Satan will be able to deceive many people, and lead them in a great rebellion at the end of the Millennium (Revelation 20:7-9). The fact that the Lord will be reigning over the earth as glorious King will not eliminate sin, and people of that time will need to be reminded that sin is a serious offense against a holy God. Even in the glorious atmosphere of the millennial kingdom there may be a tendency to forget the great cost of redemption. The Lord's Supper or Communion is a commemoration of our Lord's costly sacrifice at the cross - but the Lord's Supper will only be practiced “until He comes” (1 Corinthians 11:26). Animal sacrifices during the Millennium would be a vivid reminder of Calvary. A lamb “led to the slaughter” as a sacrifice would provide an unforgettable reminder of the cost of redemption!

In Luke 22:16, in the context of eating the Passover meal at the Last Supper, the Lord Jesus said that He would “never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” During the Millennium, the celebration of the Passover and the other Jewish feasts involving sacrifices makes sense for restored Israel under the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Then Israel, as well as the saved Gentiles of the Kingdom, will be divinely enabled to see the deeper spiritual meaning of the Old Testament feasts and sacrifices. The Millennium Temple and the reinstated sacrificial system will focus attention on the Lord Jesus Christ as Israel's suffering Messiah and Savior of the world.

In that day, Israel will finally be a light to the nations, as God had originally intended. There will be no Temple or animal sacrifices in the eternal state, because the effects of the curse of sin will be forever erased (Revelation 21:22 and 22:3). But the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth precedes the sinless eternal state, and during the Millennium the saved peoples of the earth, both Jew and Gentile, will maintain fellowship with the Lord by coming to Jerusalem to worship Him. (See Zechariah 14:16-21.)

Prophetic Scriptures indicate that there will be two future Temples in Jerusalem. Hosea 3:4-5 states that Israel will remain “without sacrifice…or idol” until “the last days.” In those last days, which may not be far away, a Tribulation Temple will be built, where idolatry and the “abomination of desolation” will take place. But then the Lord will return and build the Millennium Temple for His Kingdom here on the earth. In that wonderful day the entire world will appreciate the holiness and grace of the Lord, through the function of this future Temple in restored Israel under the New Covenant.

 

 

 

[Bawb]

4 minutes ago, Biblican said:

Today Christians celebrate Jesus' birth, it would be pagan if we were celebrating a pagan god but we are not. The point is that because of Christmas the pagan world is reminded that Jesus came. That's a good thing.  People have come to Jesus listening to the words of Christians carols, which are some of the most beautiful worship songs ever written. As I said before you are obviously not thinking like an evangelist. 

As I stated before, it's syncretizing.

The Hebrews were building a beautiful representation of what they thought God was. They even said they would have a feast to Him. It didn't matter what they "thought" it was. YeHoVah KNEW it was not the worship He instructed them in.

Exodus 32:1 through 10 - 1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron and said unto him, “Arise, make us gods which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what has become of him.”

² And Aaron said unto them, “Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.”

³ And all the people broke off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

⁴ And he received them from their hand, and fashioned it with an engraving tool after he had made it a molten calf; and they said, “These are thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt!”

⁵ And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation and said, “Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord.”

⁶ And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

⁷ And the Lord said unto Moses, “Go, get thee down; for thy people which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves.

⁸ They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molten calf and have worshiped it, and have sacrificed thereunto and said, ‘These are thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt!’”

The pagans still think about the false gods they worship and exchanging presents, just ask them. They scoff and laugh about how "Christians" stole all of their traditions and rites they celebrated for 1000's of years before the birth of Yeshua and call them Christ-Mass.

There are many worldly secular songs that are beautiful sounding. If I lie in a song about Yeshua, does that honor Him? Does it give Him the reverence and praise He deserves?

As I have stated before, if you are evangelizing with lies, you are leading others astray. If you are a shepherd, you are in an even WORSE situation.

[Biblican]

4 minutes ago, Bawb said:

What matters is what YeHoVah thinks about paganized worship. It's called syncretism. The birth of "Jesus" has nothing to do with the RCC's unholy day.

Just a little information on the "temple and system" that is no longer needed. You will also note, it states NOTHING about the RCC instituted Christ-Mass:

Two Future Temples

Ezekiel 43:27 - …your priests will offer your burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar, and I will accept you, declares the Lord.

Zechariah 6:12 - Here is the Man whose name is the Branch, and he will…build the temple of the Lord.

Matthew 24:15 - When you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…

The Temple Mount in Jerusalem is the location of both the First and Second Jewish Temples. At the present time there is no Temple on the Temple Mount. Instead, two Muslim shrines, the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, stand there. However, the Jewish people still consider the Temple Mount to be the most sacred place for Jews in all the world. No wonder the Temple Mount is a political powder keg, and must be part of any formula for peace in the Middle East!

According to the Bible, a Temple will once again stand on the Temple Mount. How and when the Temple Mount will be available for a future Temple remains to be seen. Biblical prophecy buffs have proposed all kinds of potential scenarios for how all of this could take place—everything from earthquakes to explosives to the collapse of the Temple Mount platform!

Some well-meaning Christians have felt that the biblical predictions of a future Temple should be spiritualized, saying that these prophecies of a future Temple refer to the Church, or to the individual Christian. Indeed, 1 Corinthians 3:16 makes it quite clear that the Church, as the body of Christ, is the spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit. And in 1 Corinthians 6:19 we are taught that the physical body of every individual believer is to be honored and kept clean, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit. But these wonderful New Testament truths do not alter the biblical predictions of a literal future Temple in Jerusalem.

The question gets more complicated when we realize that the Bible teaches that two Temples are yet to stand on Temple Mount in the future. First will come a Tribulation Temple, then a Millennium Temple. Let's look at the Scriptures about these future Temples.

The Tribulation Temple

Jesus referred to the Tribulation Temple in His Olivet Discourse: “When you see the 'abomination of desolation' which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” (Matthew 24:15-16). This decoration was also predicted by the prophet Daniel.  Obviously, there must be a literal Temple for the desecration of the holy place to take place. So we must look back in history to see whether or not this prophecy has already been fulfilled in a past Temple.

Subsequent to Daniel's prophecy, the Temple was desecrated when Antiochus IV (175-164BC) of Syria invaded Judea. He declared that daily sacrifices must cease, and he set up an “abomination of desolation” by erecting a statue of the Greek god, Zeus, in the holy place of the Temple. Daniel predicted these historical events in Daniel 11:21-35. Notice particularly: “forces from him will arise, desecrate the temple fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation” (v31). But this inter-testamental desecration and fulfillment of the Daniel 11 prophecy occurred long before the Lord Jesus gave His Olivet Discourse, in which He indicated that the “abomination of desolation” was yet to occur.

However, the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV was not the only “abomination of desolation” predicted by the prophet Daniel, for in Daniel 12:11 we read of another “abomination of desolation.” The context of this other “abomination of desolation” is the end times, as verse 9 makes clear: “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.” Thus, in His Olivet Discourse, it is clear that our Lord was speaking of this future “abomination of desolation.” This future desecration was also what the apostle Paul had in mind when he wrote of the future “man of lawlessness” who will “take his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

The desecration and destruction of the Temple by Rome in 70AD was certainly subsequent to our Lord's Olivet Discourse, and even subsequent to the writings of Paul. Was this the fulfillment of the desecration prophecy of Daniel 12? Were the prophetic “end times” fulfilled when the Roman armies overran Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple that had been built by Herod the Great? The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was certainly a partial fulfillment of this prophecy, as Luke's account of our Lord's Olivet Discourse makes quite clear: “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand…and they will fall by the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” (Luke 21:20-24).

The fact that “the times of the Gentiles” have been in effect ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD indicates that a partial fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse prophecy has taken place. However, the complete fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse prophecy awaits events leading up to the Lord's return, as the contexts of the Olivet Discourse and Daniel 12 make abundantly clear.

In Matthew 24 the Lord went on to say that the tribulation of those days will be greater and more devastating than any time of trouble in the history of the world (v21). The Roman conquest of 70 AD was a time of great trouble, but clearly not the worst calamity in all of world history. Furthermore, the Lord spoke of His return to this earth “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (v29). So the Temple that the Lord had in mind in Matthew 24:15, where the abomination of desolation will be set up, could not have been the Temple that was destroyed by the Romans. A literal future Temple will be built, and it will be taken over by the forces of evil during the future Tribulation period.

When will the Tribulation Temple be built? We don’t know. At present, several groups in Israel are carefully preparing Temple articles and priestly garments according to the instructions given in Exodus. How all these efforts will fit into the construction of the Tribulation Temple is unknown, and whether or not the Ark of the Covenant will be found and become part of the scenario is still unknown. But prophetic Scripture clearly requires that a functioning Temple be present for the period of Great Tribulation.

The Millennium Temple

Chapters 40-48 of Ezekiel's prophecy contain a grand and detailed vision of a glorious Temple to be built at some future time. Ezekiel was given the precise dimensions of this future Temple (chapters 40-42), and he foresaw the glory of the Lord returning to this Temple (chapter 43). He was given details of the function of the priests and Levites and the order of worship in this future Temple (chapters 43-46), and he was shown the layout for the whole area surrounding the future temple complex (chapter 45). Chapters 47-48 give the future topographical changes in the Jerusalem area and the political reorganization with the 12 tribes of Israel, completing the amazing prophetic vision given to Ezekiel.

If we are practicing good principles of interpretation, we must conclude that the glorious Temple of Ezekiel's vision is a literal Temple to be built in the future. Since Ezekiel's vision of the destruction of the First Jewish Temple literally came true, right down to the very details (Ezekiel 7-12), it is reasonable to assume that Ezekiel's vision of the future Temple will be fulfilled literally, to the very details.

And there are many details! The fact that there are so many details, including the exact dimensions, makes it very difficult for those who attempt to interpret this future temple as a “spiritualized” reference to the Church today. Why would God include so many elaborate physical details of plans and functions that have no bearing whatsoever on the Church as the temple of the Holy Spirit? A more proper and consistent interpretation indicates that Ezekiel's Temple is a literal temple that will be built for the Lord's literal kingdom here on this earth when He returns. According to Revelation 20:6, His kingdom will last for 1000 years, and the Temple of Ezekiel's vision will serve as the center of divine government during the Millennium.

While this Millennium Temple will be built in the same general location as the Tribulation Temple, there are several indications that it will not be the same Temple. First of all, many topographical and geological changes will occur in the Jerusalem area when the Lord returns. Zechariah 14 indicates that the Mount of Olives will split in half, and a large valley will form in the middle. In addition, Ezekiel 47 indicates that fresh subterranean water will continuously flow from the Temple area in Jerusalem down to the Dead Sea in the east and down to the Mediterranean Sea in the west. Scripture does not tell us whether or not these “earth-moving“ events will destroy the Tribulation Temple, but they are certainly of a magnitude that would do tremendous damage to any buildings standing on the Temple Mount.

Furthermore, the dimensions of the Millennium Temple complex are on such a grand scale that it would appear that the Millennium Temple will have to be built after the topographical and geological changes take place. Therefore, the future Millennium Temple must be a different building than the future Tribulation Temple. In the messianic passage of Zechariah 6:9-15, the coming Messiah is given the title of “the Branch“ and unites the offices of King and Priest. He will personally direct the building of a future Temple. Clearly, this future literal Temple of Zechariah's prophecy will be the Millennium Temple, built for Christ's 1000-year reign on earth.

This prophecy should not be interpreted as a “spiritual” reference to the Church today! Zechariah and his contemporaries understood this prophecy to be a promise of a literal Temple and a literal throne where the Messiah will literally reign over His kingdom on earth - with no competition!

Zechariah's prophecy was not fulfilled at the first coming of Christ, because the King and His kingdom were rejected. That generation did not obey the Lord. But at the second coming of Christ a godly remnant of Jews will come from “far off“ (v15) - from around the world - who have recognized Jesus as their Messiah and trusted Him as their Savior. They will welcome the return of their Messiah. This remnant of the Jewish people is the “all Israel“ mentioned in Romans 11:26: “And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written, 'The deliverer will come from Zion, and turn godlessness away from Jacob…'“ These Jewish believers will participate with Gentile believers in the building of the Millennium Temple (v15).

What an encouragement Zechariah's prophecy would have been to the Jews of his day, who were rebuilding the Temple that had been destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. Their rebuilt Temple was not much of a structure compared to the glory of Solomon's Temple, but it foreshadowed the building of a great and glorious future Temple, where the Messiah would rule and reign supreme!

The Question of Sacrifices

Some Christians have problems with a literal interpretation of Ezekiel's Temple vision because of the implied reinstitution of animal sacrifices (Ezekiel 43-46). Wouldn't a literal Temple with literal sacrifices contradict the clear teaching of Hebrews 10:10-14? At first consideration, this seems to be an insurmountable theological and hermeneutical barrier to a literal Temple. It is important to notice, however, that in Hebrews 10 the author is not saying that there can never be animal sacrifices in the future. The thrust of his argument is that animal sacrifices could never take away sin, The animal sacrifices of the Old Testament period pointed forward, prophetically portraying the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. If animal sacrifice is reinstated during the time of the millennial kingdom, these sacrifices would look backward, in a retrospective and instructive way, commemorating an already accomplished salvation. They would not remove sins any more than the sacrifices in Old Testament times removed sins, but they would remind believers and instruct unbelievers of the cost of redemption from sin.

During the millennial kingdom, the Church and the Old Testament saints will reign with Christ in their sinless new bodies, but human beings with sinful human natures will be living on the earth at that time as well. Some of these people will be believers, but some will be unbelievers. Every person coming out of the Tribulation and entering the Millennium will be a believer, but some of those who are born during the 1000 years of the kingdom will not become believers. Because sin will be present, the Lord will need to “rule with a rod of iron” during the Millennium. (See Revelation 2:27; 12:5 and 19:15.)

And because there will be unbelievers, Satan will be able to deceive many people, and lead them in a great rebellion at the end of the Millennium (Revelation 20:7-9). The fact that the Lord will be reigning over the earth as glorious King will not eliminate sin, and people of that time will need to be reminded that sin is a serious offense against a holy God. Even in the glorious atmosphere of the millennial kingdom there may be a tendency to forget the great cost of redemption. The Lord's Supper or Communion is a commemoration of our Lord's costly sacrifice at the cross - but the Lord's Supper will only be practiced “until He comes” (1 Corinthians 11:26). Animal sacrifices during the Millennium would be a vivid reminder of Calvary. A lamb “led to the slaughter” as a sacrifice would provide an unforgettable reminder of the cost of redemption!

In Luke 22:16, in the context of eating the Passover meal at the Last Supper, the Lord Jesus said that He would “never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” During the Millennium, the celebration of the Passover and the other Jewish feasts involving sacrifices makes sense for restored Israel under the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Then Israel, as well as the saved Gentiles of the Kingdom, will be divinely enabled to see the deeper spiritual meaning of the Old Testament feasts and sacrifices. The Millennium Temple and the reinstated sacrificial system will focus attention on the Lord Jesus Christ as Israel's suffering Messiah and Savior of the world.

In that day, Israel will finally be a light to the nations, as God had originally intended. There will be no Temple or animal sacrifices in the eternal state, because the effects of the curse of sin will be forever erased (Revelation 21:22 and 22:3). But the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth precedes the sinless eternal state, and during the Millennium the saved peoples of the earth, both Jew and Gentile, will maintain fellowship with the Lord by coming to Jerusalem to worship Him. (See Zechariah 14:16-21.)

Prophetic Scriptures indicate that there will be two future Temples in Jerusalem. Hosea 3:4-5 states that Israel will remain “without sacrifice…or idol” until “the last days.” In those last days, which may not be far away, a Tribulation Temple will be built, where idolatry and the “abomination of desolation” will take place. But then the Lord will return and build the Millennium Temple for His Kingdom here on the earth. In that wonderful day the entire world will appreciate the holiness and grace of the Lord, through the function of this future Temple in restored Israel under the New Covenant.

 

 

 

Christmas is not paganized worship. It's a celebration of Jesus' coming.  

If the Jews attempt to build another temple and reinstate animal sacrifice, that will be the trigger that instigates their second captivity Zechariah 14,1,2.

The New Covenant is the covenant that Jesus established by His sacrifice, it's not something that happens in the millennial future. The timing of it is prophesied to happen before the destruction of the second temple and after God has returned the people to their land after their captivity in Babylon.

The animal sacrifices that will be permitted in the millennial will be for the Jews as a reminder of their rejection of the Messiah and what it cost Him. I always thought those sacrifices to them would be the equivalent of what communion is to us, a reminder of His sacrifice. This is all an interesting subject, but please try and  stick to the subject of the thread.

[Biblican]

8 minutes ago, Bawb said:

As I stated before, it's syncretizing.

The Hebrews were building a beautiful representation of what they thought God was. They even said they would have a feast to Him. It didn't matter what they "thought" it was. YeHoVah KNEW it was not the worship He instructed them in.

Exodus 32:1 through 10 - 1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron and said unto him, “Arise, make us gods which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what has become of him.”

² And Aaron said unto them, “Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.”

³ And all the people broke off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

⁴ And he received them from their hand, and fashioned it with an engraving tool after he had made it a molten calf; and they said, “These are thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt!”

⁵ And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation and said, “Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord.”

⁶ And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

⁷ And the Lord said unto Moses, “Go, get thee down; for thy people which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves.

⁸ They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molten calf and have worshiped it, and have sacrificed thereunto and said, ‘These are thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt!’”

The pagans still think about the false gods they worship and exchanging presents, just ask them. They scoff and laugh about how "Christians" stole all of their traditions and rites they celebrated for 1000's of years before the birth of Yeshua and call them Christ-Mass.

There are many worldly secular songs that are beautiful sounding. If I lie in a song about Yeshua, does that honor Him? Does it give Him the reverence and praise He deserves?

As I have stated before, if you are evangelizing with lies, you are leading others astray. If you are a shepherd, you are in an even WORSE situation.

When the Jews were dancing around the golden calf, they had already broken the first commandment, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Moses broke the tablets because if you break one commandment you have broken them all. Then he instructed them to build the tabernacle with the plans that God had given him when He gave Him the law, because God knew that His people would not be able to keep the law. The tabernacle provided the means by which sins could be forgiven and in turn that whole set up was a foreshadow of Jesus' sacrifice. The entire Old Testament is about Jesus and His coming. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS TO GOD IS THE SALVATION OF THE SOULS HE SENT HIS SON TO SAVE. If Christmas reminds someone of Jesus and they come to the Lord as a result, well praise the Lord for Christmas. 

P.S. Exchanging gifts is a Hebrew practice. 

[Bawb]

8 minutes ago, Biblican said:

Christmas is not paganized worship. It's a celebration of Jesus' coming.  

If the Jews attempt to build another temple and reinstate animal sacrifice, that will be the trigger that instigates their second captivity Zechariah 14,1,2.

The New Covenant is the covenant that Jesus established by His sacrifice, it's not something that happens in the millennial future. The timing of it is prophesied to happen before the destruction of the second temple and after God has returned the people to their land after their captivity in Babylon.

The animal sacrifices that will be permitted in the millennial will be for the Jews as a reminder of their rejection of the Messiah and what it cost Him. I always thought those sacrifices to them would be the equivalent of what communion is to us, a reminder of His sacrifice. This is all an interesting subject, but please try and  stick to the subject of the thread.

1. Please explain to me where all of the traditions celebrated during Christ-Mass come from: the 25th of December being "god's" birthday, Christmas trees, hanging ornaments, Satan Claus and his elves, the reindeer, exchanging presents, the yule log, Christmas caroling (wassailing), kissing under the missletoe, decking the halls with holly, the 12 days of xmas and others found on the "History Channel"...

https://historycollection.com/16-pagan-christmas-traditions-that-people-mistakenly-credit-to-christianity/

All of this is paganism. Looks like paganism, smells like paganism, dances like paganism... Probably is paganism...

This is my last post on the subject. I will pray for the Ruach Ha Kodesh to open your eyes.