The Israel Of God Is The Church

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is correct. The Israel of God is the natural olive tree into which we are grafted. The Israel of God is the one and only group of the faithful, of the seed of Abraham and in Christ Jesus. There is no entity 'church' apart from this. The Israel of God is the congregation of which all believers are members and is of the seed of Abraham which is faith in God, not a bloodline.

Would you not like to post a couple of scriptures for this? The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a parable, and if we are obedient to 2nd Peter 1:20 we must not interpret scripture privately but let scripture interpret scripture. And every Tree in parable that was explained is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4, Ezekiel 31). So, until you produce scripture to explain the Olive Tree, I must regard your statement as unfounded.

Added to this, let's see what this theory brings, for it is held by many.

1. Israel has no root. It has a "father" - Jacob
2. Jacob means "Supplanter" or "crook". Romans says that the root is holy
3. Israel is designated a "Vine" until the diaspora, then it is no Nation at all, being scattered to every nation under the sun
4. Judah is designated a *Fig Tree" and is cursed by our Lord Jesus
5. Romans 11 says the Israel at Paul's time is in "unbelief"
6. Romans 11 says that Israel at Paul's time is "branches", not the root
7. Romans 11 says that Israel have been cut off the stem for unbelief

So here is the logic of those who hold the Olive Tree of Romans 11 as Israel:

Israel's root is holy but he is a crook. This crook-root produced seed by the flesh that are Law-breakers, uncircumcised in heart, stiff-necked, unbelieving and blind. Though God has cut them out of themselves Christians, seed of the Holly Spirit, still call the Tree Israel and desire to be grafted into cutoff branches. Since Jacob is the root, Jesus, Seed of Jacob, and a natural branch, has been cut off too. But now the scattered, non existing Tree is the nesting place of wild branches who believed and obeyed God. And though the Tree is cut off and dispersed, and called "lo-ammi" (you are NOT my People) by God, the wild branches insist on calling their it their Nation.

But if scripture is used to interpret scripture, then the Olive Tree is a king and His Kingdom:

The King is Jesus, most holy from Mary's womb (Lk.1:35). He presents His Kingdom to Israel but is disbelieved and murdered by Israel. After being called an emissary of Beelzebub, Jesus, the Holy King, rips the Kingdom away from Israel and cuts them off from His supply. As Matthew 21:43 say, King Jesus then turns to the Nations for the kings of His Kingdom. Many believe and become branches in the Kingdom of Jesus. But, due to God's unfailing love for Israel, and because He honors His Covenant with Israel, He extends mercy to Israel when He sets up His Kingdom on earth and the Gentiles' time is over. Israel, are taken in as subjects with 12 Christians ruling them and will be that part of the Kingdom where Emmanuel lives and is served - Canaan. A warning is extended to the "wild branches" that their position is not secure and that they could be cut out and not participate in this Kingdom (Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 e.g.)

Sometimes a bit of humor makes the point ... or, is it serious?

[angels4u]

The Mystery of Israel’s Salvation Roman 11:25-36

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:4 a partial hardening has come upon Israel, juntil the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

The Deliverer will come lfrom Zion,

he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;

 27  “and this will be my mcovenant with them

nwhen I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are obeloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and pthe calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now5 receive mercy. 32 For God rhas consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches and swisdom and knowledge of God! tHow unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

 34  “For uwho has known the mind of the Lord,

or vwho has been his counselor?”

 35  “Or who has given a gift to him

that he might be repaid?”

36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, angels4u said:

The Mystery of Israel’s Salvation Roman 11:25-36

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:4 a partial hardening has come upon Israel, juntil the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

The Deliverer will come lfrom Zion,

he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;

 27  “and this will be my mcovenant with them

nwhen I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are obeloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and pthe calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now5 receive mercy. 32 For God rhas consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches and swisdom and knowledge of God! tHow unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

 34  “For uwho has known the mind of the Lord,

or vwho has been his counselor?”

 35  “Or who has given a gift to him

that he might be repaid?”

36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Only the Remnant Elect Jew will be saved and added to the church on earth, the rest of the Jews are blinded to salvation

Romans 11:2 & 7-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Would you not like to post a couple of scriptures for this? The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a parable, and if we are obedient to 2nd Peter 1:20 we must not interpret scripture privately but let scripture interpret scripture. And every Tree in parable that was explained is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4, Ezekiel 31). So, until you produce scripture to explain the Olive Tree, I must regard your statement as unfounded.

This sound like the law of first mention. I don't hold to that. Depending on context is the correct understanding. And Peter doesn't say scripture is not interpreted personally, it's prophecy that is of no private interpretation. Though scripture should not be interpreted privately either. There is far too much of that.

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Added to this, let's see what this theory brings, for it is held by many.

1. Israel has no root. It has a "father" - Jacob
2. Jacob means "Supplanter" or "crook". Romans says that the root is holy
3. Israel is designated a "Vine" until the diaspora, then it is no Nation at all, being scattered to every nation under the sun
4. Judah is designated a *Fig Tree" and is cursed by our Lord Jesus
5. Romans 11 says the Israel at Paul's time is in "unbelief"
6. Romans 11 says that Israel at Paul's time is "branches", not the root
7. Romans 11 says that Israel have been cut off the stem for unbelief

Paul is saying there is a natural group represented by the tree and branches. That is the Israel of God, those of faith, those who confess the Lord and who are in Christ. This is just a visual illustration of a point Paul is making about origins and membership and the dynamic thereof concerning the people of God.

Paul is saying we as Gentiles are grafted branches into an already existing tree whose branches represent the entire group of the people of God; faithful Israel. Paul says even the branches that grew from the tree are not all safe from being cut off, and some were. This is about what the Gentiles are in relation to the natural branches and the tree, and that conclusion is we are grafted into what already exists, adopted, not an entity in and of itself. Hence there is only the true faithful Israel of God and no such thing as a Gentile church apart from the natural tree and it's natural branches.

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

So here is the logic of those who hold the Olive Tree of Romans 11 as Israel:

Israel's root is holy but he is a crook. This crook-root produced seed by the flesh that are Law-breakers, uncircumcised in heart, stiff-necked, unbelieving and blind. Though God has cut them out of themselves Christians, seed of the Holly Spirit, still call the Tree Israel and desire to be grafted into cutoff branches. Since Jacob is the root, Jesus, Seed of Jacob, and a natural branch, has been cut off too. But now the scattered, non existing Tree is the nesting place of wild branches who believed and obeyed God. And though the Tree is cut off and dispersed, and called "lo-ammi" (you are NOT my People) by God, the wild branches insist on calling their it their Nation.

The tree would be Christ, the branches are the faithful, whether natural or adopted.

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But if scripture is used to interpret scripture, then the Olive Tree is a king and His Kingdom:

The King is Jesus, most holy from Mary's womb (Lk.1:35). He presents His Kingdom to Israel but is disbelieved and murdered by Israel. After being called an emissary of Beelzebub, Jesus, the Holy King, rips the Kingdom away from Israel and cuts them off from His supply. As Matthew 21:43 say, King Jesus then turns to the Nations for the kings of His Kingdom. Many believe and become branches in the Kingdom of Jesus. But, due to God's unfailing love for Israel, and because He honors His Covenant with Israel, He extends mercy to Israel when He sets up His Kingdom on earth and the Gentiles' time is over. Israel, are taken in as subjects with 12 Christians ruling them and will be that part of the Kingdom where Emmanuel lives and is served - Canaan. A warning is extended to the "wild branches" that their position is not secure and that they could be cut out and not participate in this Kingdom (Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 e.g.)

Sometimes a bit of humor makes the point ... or, is it serious?

I think this confuses the concept of a nation of borders with a faithful people group belonging to Christ.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Diaste

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

Technically, the tree of Israel, the "Israel of God," is Christ crucified and resurrected, the Messiah, God's anointed one. The Jews are branches of that same tree into which Gentiles have been grafted. Furthermore, the Jewish branches are not bloodline branches but those who live by faith. Faithless fruitless branches are pruned off the tree. 

The root is Christ. The trunk the Kingdom, the branches members. And yes, your last sentences is what I said.

"The Israel of God is the congregation of which all believers are members and is of the seed of Abraham which is faith in God, not a bloodline."

[AdHoc]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

This sound like the law of first mention. I don't hold to that. Depending on context is the correct understanding. And Peter doesn't say scripture is not interpreted personally, it's prophecy that in of non private interpretation.

Paul is saying there is a natural group represented by the tree. That is the Israel of God, those of faith, those who confess the Lord and who are in Christ. This is just a visual illustration of a point Paul is making about origins and membership and the dynamic thereof concerning the people of God.

Paul is saying we as Gentiles are grafted branches into an already existing tree which is the entire group of the people of God; faithful Israel. Paul says even the branches that grew from the tree are not all safe from being cut off, and some were. This is about what the Gentiles are in relation to the natural branches and the tree, and that conclusion is we are grafted into what already exists, adopted, not an entity in and of itself. Hence there is on the true faithful Israel of God and no such thing as a Gentile church apart from the natural tree and it's natural branches.

The tree would be Christ, the branches are the faithful, whether natural or adopted.

I think this confuses the concept of a nation of borders with a faithful people group belonging to Christ.

I think we are not far apart in our appreciation of the matter. Our main difference is in the definition of the Olive Tree. So I'll only address your statement;

"Paul is saying there is a natural group represented by the tree. That is the Israel of God, those of faith, those who confess the Lord and who are in Christ. This is just a visual illustration of a point Paul is making about origins and membership and the dynamic thereof concerning the people of God."

The reason why Paul devotes three Chapters of Romans to Israel is that after building a case for lost men and how they are saved for eight Chapters, the question would naturally be put; "Israel are found sinners like all men, but have NOT believed in Jesus. What is to become of them?" This is a critical question for God's honor hangs on it. God made a Covenant with Abraham to give them a Land and safety and prosperity in this Land. But 430 years later God made a second Covenant with the conditions for Israel (seed of Abraham) to REMAIN in the Land. Because Israel broke the Law, this second Covenant works against the first. The first PROMISES a Land, the second DRIVES THEM OUT of that Land. What is traced in Romans 9, 10 & 11 is how our sovereign and righteous God gets round this without violating His unbending righteousness.

The Olive Tree cannot be Israel, since they are but "branches". No Christian would claim that in John 15 that the Church is the "True Vine" for it explicitly states that Christ is the True Vine and that the individual Christians are the branches. So also in Romans 11. The Olive Tree is one thing and Israel is another - natural branches. The Tree is a stem, or root, and the branches the issue of the root. Conversely, if we can call the Tree by its branches, then Israel is fully incorrect because they are cut out. We would have to call the Tree "the Church" because those branches remain. But neither Israel nor the Church is correct. It is, as all other Trees in Parable are, a king and his kingdom.

The prophets have repeatedly said that Israel will be restored again and by Covenant with David, Christ will be their KING (Act.15:14-17). According to Daniel though, Christ is to be future KING of the vanquished Gentiles. So Christ's KINGSHIP is DUAL. But this only happens in the next age. In this age, Christ does not deal with Israel except to apply the curses of a broken Law. Christ's dealings are now with the wild branches. But a time will come when the natural branches are grafted back in - NOT INTO ISRAEL, for they are already Israel, but into Christ's worldwide KINGDOM.

Any talk of Israel BELIEVING must be dismissed. Romans 11 says they are in UNBELIEF, and the latter part of Romans 11 does not show Israel believing. It show how they are saved Nationally WITHOUT BELIEVING. If Israel, at some late hour, suddenly turned to Christ (i) Romans 9, 10 & 11 would not be needed, and (ii) they would not be Israel anymore because they would fall under 2nd Corinthians 5:17 and be part of the New Creature WITH THEIR HERITAGE wiped out. But no, they remain Israel - a Nation, and this, right into New Jerusalem.

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think we are not far apart in our appreciation of the matter. Our main difference is in the definition of the Olive Tree. So I'll only address your statement;

"Paul is saying there is a natural group represented by the tree. That is the Israel of God, those of faith, those who confess the Lord and who are in Christ. This is just a visual illustration of a point Paul is making about origins and membership and the dynamic thereof concerning the people of God."

The reason why Paul devotes three Chapters of Romans to Israel is that after building a case for lost men and how they are saved for eight Chapters, the question would naturally be put; "Israel are found sinners like all men, but have NOT believed in Jesus. What is to become of them?" This is a critical question for God's honor hangs on it. God made a Covenant with Abraham to give them a Land and safety and prosperity in this Land. But 430 years later God made a second Covenant with the conditions for Israel (seed of Abraham) to REMAIN in the Land. Because Israel broke the Law, this second Covenant works against the first. The first PROMISES a Land, the second DRIVES THEM OUT of that Land. What is traced in Romans 9, 10 & 11 is how our sovereign and righteous God gets round this without violating His unbending righteousness.

I don't think it an issue if one is cognizant of the context, people of faith. I see what you are saying here. Driving out the Jews from the land wasn't going to be permanent so the promise was not nullified nor compromised. We are always assured the promise will be fulfilled by our Father for the seed of Abraham, not a nation or a bloodline. I don't think I could ever see the promises of God to Abraham as awaiting those not of the Israel of faith. 

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The Olive Tree cannot be Israel, since they are but "branches". No Christian would claim that in John 15 that the Church is the "True Vine" for it explicitly states that Christ is the True Vine and that the individual Christians are the branches. So also in Romans 11. The Olive Tree is one thing and Israel is another - natural branches. The Tree is a stem, or root, and the branches the issue of the root. Conversely, if we can call the Tree by its branches, then Israel is fully incorrect because they are cut out. We would have to call the Tree "the Church" because those branches remain. But neither Israel nor the Church is correct. It is, as all other Trees in Parable are, a king and his kingdom.

I don't disagree. I was likening the tree to the idea of the Israel of God, the faith of Abraham, those in Christ, conceptually. Out of that idea the branches grow and are nurtured.  It may be the branchless trunk of the tree is meant to be viewed as the kingdom and that's well and good. I view it as the origin of faith. That's what nurtures us, it's by what means we are grafted in and remain, faith toward belief. 

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The prophets have repeatedly said that Israel will be restored again and by Covenant with David, Christ will be their KING (Act.15:14-17). According to Daniel though, Christ is to be future KING of the vanquished Gentiles. So Christ's KINGSHIP is DUAL. But this only happens in the next age. In this age, Christ does not deal with Israel except to apply the curses of a broken Law. Christ's dealings are now with the wild branches. But a time will come when the natural branches are grafted back in - NOT INTO ISRAEL, for they are already Israel, but into Christ's worldwide KINGDOM.

Again, I think this conflates dissimilar ideas.

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Any talk of Israel BELIEVING must be dismissed. Romans 11 says they are in UNBELIEF, and the latter part of Romans 11 does not show Israel believing. It show how they are saved Nationally WITHOUT BELIEVING. If Israel, at some late hour, suddenly turned to Christ (i) Romans 9, 10 & 11 would not be needed, and (ii) they would not be Israel anymore because they would fall under 2nd Corinthians 5:17 and be part of the New Creature WITH THEIR HERITAGE wiped out. But no, they remain Israel - a Nation, and this, right into New Jerusalem.

No. 

[not an echo]

Hello all,

I couldn't help but notice the title of this thread, and when I saw mention of Paul's parable of the Olive Tree, I couldn't help but think of the opening post I worked up for a thread I started a few months back entitled Israel, the Church, and the Parable of the Olive Tree.  I never seem to have the time I would like to have to spend on the forum, but because of the work I have already done that speaks to this thread subject, perhaps this will make for at least a Worthy contribution.   Following is a link to that thread (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269127-israel-the-church-an-the-parable-of-the-olive-tree/).

[Anne2]

On 12/25/2021 at 3:48 PM, AdHoc said:

I propose that the title of the Thread NEVER occurs in scripture. Israel is the seed of Jacob via the womb. The Church is totally different. It is the offspring of a divine birth to the Father. Israel refused Christ. the Church embraces Him. Israel remain in unbelief and blindness till Christ has finished building the Church (Act.15:14-16). Israel is under chastisement in this age as per the penalties of the Law. The Church is in favor with Jehovah. Israel hate Jesus. The Church loves Him. Israel persecute the Church. Israel is still a separate entity in the Olive Tree ("natural branches" as opposed to "wild branches") AND later in New Jerusalem. The Church is the Walls of the City. Israel are the Gates.

They never mix.

If an Israelite embraces Jesus Christ he is a New Creature and old is passed away INCLUDING HIS ETHNICITY (2nd Cor.5:17). There are NO Israelites in the Church (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11). To mix Israel and the Church is exactly what our Lord warned Nicodemus about. Their ORIGINS are totally different. One from the womb, one by the Holy Spirit. Well has the author of the OP said. Israel are NOT the children of God.

 

where is the connection to Abraham?

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, Anne2 said:

 

where is the connection to Abraham?

The connection is before your eyes, and Jesus Christ fulfilled all the promises and covenants made to Abraham

Galatians 3:16KJV

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.