The Israel Of God Is The Church

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Anne2 said:

 

where is the connection to Abraham?

The connection to Abraham is Christ (Gal.3:29). In Genesis 1:11-12 God made an immutable Law - the Law of "kinds". If a living creature has its seed within itself, the seed will produce the same KIND. Christ is Abraham's Seed (Matt.1:1). And in John 12:24 Christ is the Seed from which the believers come from. Thus, the believers are seed of Abraham - as Galatians 3:29 says.

But, as our rebirth is by the Holy Spirit. and not the womb, we are not connected to the fleshly side of Abraham's "kind". The rebirth connects us to Christ but not to Isaac or Jacob.

[Anne2]

3 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The connection to Abraham is Christ (Gal.3:29). In Genesis 1:11-12 God made an immutable Law - the Law of "kinds". If a living creature has its seed within itself, the seed will produce the same KIND. Christ is Abraham's Seed (Matt.1:1). And in John 12:24 Christ is the Seed from which the believers come from. Thus, the believers are seed of Abraham - as Galatians 3:29 says.

But, as our rebirth is by the Holy Spirit. and not the womb, we are not connected to the fleshly side of Abraham's "kind". The rebirth connects us to Christ but not to Isaac or Jacob.

I agree with what you have said. But I would not say Israel is a separate entity in the olive tree.  Unbelieving Israel is a separate entity IMO. The tree is made up of both Jew and Gentile. The tree is the kingdom of Christ, the Israel of God IMO. Which kingdom is a kingdom of priests.  Christ is the root.

[AdHoc]

18 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

I agree with what you have said. But I would not say Israel is a separate entity in the olive tree.  Unbelieving Israel is a separate entity IMO. The tree is made up of both Jew and Gentile. The tree is the kingdom of Christ, the Israel of God IMO. Which kingdom is a kingdom of priests.  Christ is the root.

Perhaps we mean the same thing but use different words. They call is "semantics". I fully agree with you about "Unbelieving Israel" being a separate entity. The discussion then is actually, is there such a thing as "believing Israel"? I don't think scripture addresses such a company. According to Ephesians 2, the New Man, which is made OUT OF the two (Gentiles and Israel) has no Israelites seeing as it is a New Creature.

Let's make it practical. Paul is a Benjaminite. On the road to Damascus he is converted and embraces the Lord Jesus by FAITH. We would naturally say then that he is a "believing Jew". But he isn't. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says he is a New CREATURE and that the old things have passed. Man might regard his passport, but God has made something new out of NOTHING (the meaning of "creation"). Paul's past is annulled and with it goes His ethnicity. If Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 say that there is no Jew in the New Man, then there aren't.

The Olive Tree is a physical Kingdom. Although it is described by a parable, it is as real as Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom in Daniel 4. After Christ returns, He sets up the Kingdom (out of) Heaven on earth. This kingdom will have, as co-kings with Christ, the Overcomers of the Church, and twelve of them, the Apostles will judge the 12 Tribes. Thus, Christ's Kingdom embraces and included Israel, and that is where the physical Jesus will live. The Overcoming Christians will be kings of cities (Lk.19:17-19) worldwide. According to Zachariah's prophecy in Luke 1, Israel's job is to SERVE Christ. Zechariah the prophet of old, says that the survivors of Armageddon must go up annually to worship Jesus. The Israelites, living in their land at last, manage all this. Therefore, they are still Israel (natural branches), even in restoration.

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

After Christ returns, He sets up the Kingdom (out of) Heaven on earth. This kingdom will have, as co-kings with Christ, the Overcomers of the Church, and twelve of them, the Apostles will judge the 12 Tribes. Thus, Christ's Kingdom embraces and included Israel, and that is where the physical Jesus will live. The Overcoming Christians will be kings of cities (Lk.19:17-19) worldwide. According to Zachariah's prophecy in Luke 1, Israel's job is to SERVE Christ. Zechariah the prophet of old, says that the survivors of Armageddon must go up annually to worship Jesus. The Israelites, living in their land at last, manage all this. Therefore, they are still Israel (natural branches), even in restoration.

I Strongly Disagree

There isn't going to be a kingdom on this earth where a physical Jesus Christ is going to live as you claim above

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false, he warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Edited December 30, 2021 by truth7t7

[Anne2]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Perhaps we mean the same thing but use different words. They call is "semantics". I fully agree with you about "Unbelieving Israel" being a separate entity. The discussion then is actually, is there such a thing as "believing Israel"? I don't think scripture addresses such a company. 

According to Ephesians 2, the New Man, which is made OUT OF the two (Gentiles and Israel) has no Israelites seeing as it is a New Creature.

Let's make it practical. Paul is a Benjaminite. On the road to Damascus he is converted and embraces the Lord Jesus by FAITH. We would naturally say then that he is a "believing Jew". But he isn't. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says he is a New CREATURE and that the old things have passed. Man might regard his passport, but God has made something new out of NOTHING (the meaning of "creation"). Paul's past is annulled and with it goes His ethnicity. If Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 say that there is no Jew in the New Man, then there aren't.

The Olive Tree is a physical Kingdom. Although it is described by a parable, it is as real as Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom in Daniel 4. After Christ returns, He sets up the Kingdom (out of) Heaven on earth. This kingdom will have, as co-kings with Christ, the Overcomers of the Church, and twelve of them, the Apostles will judge the 12 Tribes. Thus, Christ's Kingdom embraces and included Israel, and that is where the physical Jesus will live. The Overcoming Christians will be kings of cities (Lk.19:17-19) worldwide. According to Zachariah's prophecy in Luke 1, Israel's job is to SERVE Christ. Zechariah the prophet of old, says that the survivors of Armageddon must go up annually to worship Jesus. The Israelites, living in their land at last, manage all this. Therefore, they are still Israel (natural branches), even in restoration.

Israel is a name given to Jacob. Ephraim is also called Israel. So, the name Israel seems to be more a title, rather than a genealogical identity. Eph 2 I look at in similar fashion. That is also speaking of the priesthood IMO. If we read Ephesians, in the sense of a messianic priesthood, by the Sinai covenant (as the book of hebrews calls earthly, worldly, according to the carnal commands) we the uncircumcised had no anointed one to appear before God. The high priest bore the names of the twelve tribes (sons of Jacob/Israel) on his vestments the breastplate, as well as their names were on the two stones on shoulder of the high priest. He was a representative agent before God. Apart from circumcision there is no tribal identity, and therefore no representative agent to appear before God on your behalf. Therefore by  first covenant (as Hebrews speaks), we uncircumcised are without Christ. The high priest was the annointed one which appeared before God, bearing the names of the twelve tribes. No Gentiles were named there to appear.

The Greek for Christ in particular of Eph "Christos" is seen here

Le 21:10   And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;

1Sa 2:35  And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
 

The Hebrew term for Messiah "Annointed" is here

Le 4:3  If the priest that is anointed <04899> do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
Le 4:5  And the priest that is anointed <04899> shall take of the bullock’s blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 4:16  And the priest that is anointed <04899> shall bring of the bullock’s blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:
There are more but this is just an example

04899 משׁיח mashiyach maw-shee’-akh

from 04886, Greek 3323 Μεσσιας; n m; [BDB-603b] {See TWOT on 1255 @@ "1255c"}

AV-anointed 37, Messiah 2; 39

1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings 

Read Ephesians with this in Mind. We seem to always throw the idea of "priesthood" to the side. 

Yet, the Sinai covenant was to be a kingdom of priests, annointed (messiahs) ones being the high priest. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Anne2

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I Strongly Disagree

There isn't going to be a kingdom on this earth where a physical Jesus Christ is going to live as you claim above

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false, he warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

We've had this discussion many times my brother. The irreconcilable difference is that you allegorize the Bible. If yo take the prophets literally, as I do, then our Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with His army, defeat the Beast and his army, set up His throne in Jerusalem for ever. The first thousand years of this everlasting Kingdom are set aside as a reward for the diligent Christian.

As God had a Covenant with Abraham and his seed, Israel must be restored and dwell in their Land with their King in the midst of them. Of the 330 plus prophecies that have been fulfilled already about Jesus, ALL were literally fulfilled. There are about 600 prophecies remaining to be fulfilled. I take it that they too will be fulfilled literally.

If you take the Bible allegorically, then you are obliged to explain the Bible with the Bible, as private interpretation is forbidden. This one cannot do without causing absurdities. God's Words are direct and plain except when He wants to explain with a picture.

There is a Second coming to earth by Jesus our Lord. He will dwell physically in Jerusalem. He will be served by Israel as He dwells is much greater glory than Solomon.

I have considered this matter for 39 years in the light of all the arguments. I could be wrong, but the evidence is overwhelming from my point of view.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Israel is a name given to Jacob. Ephraim is also called Israel. So, the name Israel seems to be more a title, rather than a genealogical identity. Eph 2 I look at in similar fashion. That is also speaking of the priesthood IMO. If we read Ephesians, in the sense of a messianic priesthood, by the Sinai covenant (as the book of hebrews calls earthly, worldly, according to the carnal commands) we the uncircumcised had no anointed one to appear before God. The high priest bore the names of the twelve tribes (sons of Jacob/Israel) on his vestments the breastplate, as well as their names were on the two stones on shoulder of the high priest. He was a representative agent before God. Apart from circumcision there is no tribal identity, and therefore no representative agent to appear before God on your behalf. Therefore by  first covenant (as Hebrews speaks), we uncircumcised are without Christ. The high priest was the annointed one which appeared before God, bearing the names of the twelve tribes. No Gentiles were named there to appear.

The Greek for Christ in particular of Eph "Christos" is seen here

Le 21:10   And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;

1Sa 2:35  And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
 

The Hebrew term for Messiah "Annointed" is here

Le 4:3  If the priest that is anointed <04899> do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
Le 4:5  And the priest that is anointed <04899> shall take of the bullock’s blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 4:16  And the priest that is anointed <04899> shall bring of the bullock’s blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:
There are more but this is just an example

04899 משׁיח mashiyach maw-shee’-akh

from 04886, Greek 3323 Μεσσιας; n m; [BDB-603b] {See TWOT on 1255 @@ "1255c"}

AV-anointed 37, Messiah 2; 39

1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings 

Read Ephesians with this in Mind. We seem to always throw the idea of "priesthood" to the side. 

Yet, the Sinai covenant was to be a kingdom of priests, annointed (messiahs) ones being the high priest. 

I'm not sure which of my points you answered above. The Covenant of Sinai establishes the Priesthood with Levi. Our Lord Jesus, what ever His capacity in regard to the Law, is a JUDEAN. Added to this, His ORDER is that of Melchisedec. He could never be a Priest of Israel. That, says Hebrews 7:11-14, would require a change in the Law. But the Law, to its last jot and tittle, will remain till heaven and earth pass.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood

But TO THE CHURCH, and to mankind in general, He (Jesus) is the High Priest and Mediator. Ephesians is written to a ex-Gentile Church. The word "priest" never occurs in it. It concerns the privileges of being IN Christ and being His Body.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

We've had this discussion many times my brother. The irreconcilable difference is that you allegorize the Bible. If yo take the prophets literally, as I do, then our Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with His army, defeat the Beast and his army, set up His throne in Jerusalem for ever. The first thousand years of this everlasting Kingdom are set aside as a reward for the diligent Christian.

As God had a Covenant with Abraham and his seed, Israel must be restored and dwell in their Land with their King in the midst of them. Of the 330 plus prophecies that have been fulfilled already about Jesus, ALL were literally fulfilled. There are about 600 prophecies remaining to be fulfilled. I take it that they too will be fulfilled literally.

If you take the Bible allegorically, then you are obliged to explain the Bible with the Bible, as private interpretation is forbidden. This one cannot do without causing absurdities. God's Words are direct and plain except when He wants to explain with a picture.

There is a Second coming to earth by Jesus our Lord. He will dwell physically in Jerusalem. He will be served by Israel as He dwells is much greater glory than Solomon.

I have considered this matter for 39 years in the light of all the arguments. I could be wrong, but the evidence is overwhelming from my point of view.

Five paragraphs presented, and not one scripture to support claims made

There won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus won't be on this earth amongst mortal humans

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, proclaiming to the Jews and world to be Messiah God returned "Beware"

[Bawb]

On 12/24/2021 at 4:08 PM, truth7t7 said:

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

And we are grafted in to Israel...

[Anne2]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

We've had this discussion many times my brother. The irreconcilable difference is that you allegorize the Bible. If yo take the prophets literally, as I do, then our Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with His army, defeat the Beast and his army, set up His throne in Jerusalem for ever. The first thousand years of this everlasting Kingdom are set aside as a reward for the diligent Christian.

As God had a Covenant with Abraham and his seed, Israel must be restored and dwell in their Land with their King in the midst of them. Of the 330 plus prophecies that have been fulfilled already about Jesus, ALL were literally fulfilled. There are about 600 prophecies remaining to be fulfilled. I take it that they too will be fulfilled literally.

If you take the Bible allegorically, then you are obliged to explain the Bible with the Bible, as private interpretation is forbidden. This one cannot do without causing absurdities. God's Words are direct and plain except when He wants to explain with a picture.

There is a Second coming to earth by Jesus our Lord. He will dwell physically in Jerusalem. He will be served by Israel as He dwells is much greater glory than Solomon.

I have considered this matter for 39 years in the light of all the arguments. I could be wrong, but the evidence is overwhelming from my point of view.

The problem I  have with all this is....reading the prophets apart from the Covenant promises, spoken in the law.

Where is the promise to the nation of Israel to dwell with their king?