A Prewrath Rapture question

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This new theory, first propagated by Marvin Rosenthal in 1990...

You are correct in saying "propagated," as Rosenthal was the first to write a book about it. However, pre-wrath was developed in the 1980s by different people acting independently, myself being one. I never even knew of the others until I stumbled across Rosenthal's book in a friend's house in the late 1990s. (And it was not until late 2003 that I began to fit the essential pieces together into a coherent whole.)

The problem I noted right away with Rosenthal's work is that he came with a long pre-trib background, resulting in his version of pre-wrath becoming a modified pre-trib. Whereas I had never fully committed to any version of eschatology until I could fit all the seemingly discordant pieces together. The final big one being the 70th week of Daniel.

Edited January 4, 2022 by WilliamL

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I rather think the idea of a thief is that no one knows when a thief will come. And as Jesus said, no one will know when He will split the sky as lightning. 

This is a reasonable argument. But it has difficulties. 

The coming like a thief involves "one TAKEN and one LEFT". This is what breaks the house up. The word "Taken" is "paralambano" in the Greek, and means "taken as a well-acquainted person". That is, thief comes at a circadian low for men when they slumber. Only something precious is taken like "a well known friend". The House is broken up. The House of Israel was "broken up" by the Assyrian deportation in 730 BC and never recovered to this day. The "House" of Matthew 24 must be the Church.

The Coming like lightening cause ALL to mourn. They ALL see.  They are taken nowhere. A command goes out to gather them from the "four winds". Only Israel was "scattered" to the four winds and predicted to be gathered from thence (Jer.49:36, Ezek.37:9)

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

You are correct in saying "propagated," as Rosenthal was the first to write a book about it. However, pre-wrath was developed in the 1980s by different people acting independently, myself being one. I never even knew of the others until I stumbled across Rosenthal's book in a friend's house in the late 1990s. (And it was not until late 2003 that I began to fit the essential pieces together into a coherent whole.)

The problem I noted right away with Rosenthal's work is that he came with a long pre-trib background, resulting in his version of pre-wrath becoming a modified pre-trib. Whereas I had never fully committed to any version of eschatology until I could fit all the seemingly discordant pieces together. The final big one being the 70th week of Daniel.

A most interesting study, no doubt. Every man should settle things for himself. In the end, I'm sure you'll agree, the whole matter turns on one's appreciation of a few words.

[WilliamL]

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Every man should settle things for himself.

Agreed. Don't parrot what other people say, just because those things sound good.

3 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

In the end, I'm sure you'll agree, the whole matter turns on one's appreciation of a few words.

Not quite sure I get your meaning?

At any rate, "the whole matter," to me, requires that all the many many biblical End Time prophecies must fit together in one coherent whole. Without any twisting and distorting of passages or words to make them fit into one's version of eschatology. And I have found that only pre-wrath satisfies this standard.

[The Light]

20 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Agreed. Don't parrot what other people say, just because those things sound good.

 

So no more John Nelson Darby yada, yada, yada?

[AdHoc]

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

Agreed. Don't parrot what other people say, just because those things sound good.

Not quite sure I get your meaning?

At any rate, "the whole matter," to me, requires that all the many many biblical End Time prophecies must fit together in one coherent whole. Without any twisting and distorting of passages or words to make them fit into one's version of eschatology. And I have found that only pre-wrath satisfies this standard.

You've given the best example. "Pre-wrath" is a word not found in scripture. But so is "pre-trib" not found. If we take those words out of the argument, the picture changes. Then the argument must turn on "wrath" alone. It occurs thirteen times in Revelation and TEN of these are God, or Christ's wrath. One is Satan's wrath, and two are Mystery Babylon's wrath. There is no wrath of men mentioned, nor wrath of the Beast. The first mention of wrath, mentioned twice at the end of Chapter 6 is God's wrath, and the weight of evidence and the rules of grammar indicate that this twice mentioned wrath applies to all six Seals. A specially sent horseman named death is just as much God's wrath as the cry for vengeance of martyrs.

Then, if we take "wrath" out of the equation altogether, based on 1st Thessalonians 5:9, or if we use Romans 1:18 to show that ALL wrath against ungodliness is of God and from heaven, how will the arguments fare? As I said, the whole matter turns on a few words.

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Maybe I need to ask a more clear question. The bible shows us a coming in Matthew 24, and a coming in Revelation 19. Does prewrath see these two as the same coming?

Hi iamlamad,

 Its been quite a while since we've exchanged ideas. Hope all is well.

In Rev 16, the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River....and "Behold, I am coming like a thief (Jesus)"

So we know that Jesus is still coming after the sixth bowl. We can deduce,  without a doubt, that the physical second coming occurs after the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments. I think everyone agrees with this.

In the Olivet Discourse, (Matt 24) Jesus gives the disciples an explicit account of His return, in answer to their question "What will be the sign of your coming".... He states:

"1-Deception by false messiahs, 2-wars and chaos, 3-famine and economic collapse, 4-abomination and death, 5-martyrdom and apostacy, and 6-celestial signs."

Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse, gave His disciples the first 5 signs in exact order in Matt 24:4-12, then elaborated on two of the signs in Matt 24:15-16, and then he gave them the final sign in Matt 24:29. Jesus then described His return in Matt 24:30-31.

If we look at Rev 6 we see there is perfect parallelism with the six events of  Matt 24.... and the six seals of Rev 6. 

Now, Matt 24:30-31:

 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His ^[a]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

And Rev 19:11-16,19:

" And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. ¹² His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. ¹³ He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. ¹⁴ And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. ¹⁵ From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will ^[a]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the ^[b]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. ¹⁶ And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.......  And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army."

Here are the major differences....

In Matt..... Jesus comes on the clouds...... Jesus blows a trumpet....Jesus comes with His angels..... Jesus comes to gather the elect

In Rev.... Jesus rides a white horse.... Jesus has a sword coming from His mouth.... Jesus is followed by heavens armies...Jesus comes to destroy the antichrist

The events in Matt 24 compared to Rev 19 couldn't be more dissimilar! 

A person would have to do a lot of juggling, twisting, turning ..... and even then, couldn't make the two passages fit together. 

They are most definitely two different comings. 

The Second Coming is not a singular event. It is a complex and multi-faceted event, beginning with a resurrection/rapture where the bride is gathered in the air to meet her bridegroom (Matt 24)..... and ending with Jesus and the armies of heaven coming at the Battle of Armageddon. (Rev 19).... (though that is not the end, yet)

[WilliamL]

On 1/4/2022 at 3:25 PM, AdHoc said:

The first mention of wrath, mentioned twice at the end of Chapter 6 is God's wrath, and the weight of evidence and the rules of grammar indicate that this twice mentioned wrath applies to all six Seals. A specially sent horseman named death is just as much God's wrath as the cry for vengeance of martyrs.

Your claim above in bold print is entirely supported by...nothing.

The first six seals are the same events that Jesus prophesied in Matt. 24:

1) false christs bent on conquest (24:5) = 1st Seal;

2) nation against nation/war (:6-7a) = 2nd Seal;

3) famine (:7b) = 3rd Seal;

4) pestilence etc. (:7c-d) = 4th Seal;

5) persecution and martyrdom of saints (:9-11) = 5th Seal; and

6) heavenly and earthly disruptions (:29-30) = 6th Seal.

No where in the Olivet discourse did Jesus attribute these events as being the wrath of God; because that wrath of God does not begin until the Church is raptured early in the 6th Seal. Instead, Jesus attributes the troubles of the first five seals with "they," that is, the rebellious and "lawless" ones among men. And we now see those very lawless ones Jesus prophesied becoming more and more evident upon the world stage.

Edited January 7, 2022 by WilliamL

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Your claim above in bold print is entirely supported by...nothing.

The first six seals are the same events that Jesus prophesied in Matt. 24:

1) false christs bent on conquest (24:5) = 1st Seal;

2) nation against nation/war (:6-7a) = 2nd Seal;

3) famine (:7b) = 3rd Seal;

4) pestilence etc. (:7c-d) = 4th Seal;

5) persecution and martyrdom of saints (:9-11) = 5th Seal; and

6) heavenly and earthly disruptions (:29-30) = 6th Seal.

No where in the Olivet discourse did Jesus attribute these events as being the wrath of God; because that wrath of God does not begin until the Church is raptured early in the 6th Seal. Instead, Jesus attributes the troubles of the first five seals with "they," that is, the rebellious and "lawless" ones among men. And we now see those very lawless ones Jesus prophesied becoming more and more evident upon the world stage.

No brother. Your understanding is incorrect. Matthew 24 says that all the above, except point 6, "are the beginning of pangs" - not the pain itself. That starts with the "Abomination of Desolation" (v.21).

The Grammar and Context of Revelation 6 starts in 5:13 - "the One Who sits on the throne" 

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
....
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

and ends with

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The wrath of the Lamb is all six Seals. Men seek to be crushed and hid not because of one seal, but because of HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE.

CAPITALS for emphasis.

[transmogrified]

On 1/4/2022 at 4:05 PM, JoeCanada said:

Here are the major differences....

In Matt..... Jesus comes on the clouds...... Jesus blows a trumpet....Jesus comes with His angels..... Jesus comes to gather the elect

In Rev.... Jesus rides a white horse.... Jesus has a sword coming from His mouth.... Jesus is followed by heavens armies...Jesus comes to destroy the antichrist

The events in Matt 24 compared to Rev 19 couldn't be more dissimilar! 

A person would have to do a lot of juggling, twisting, turning ..... and even then, couldn't make the two passages fit together. 

They are most definitely two different comings. 

The Second Coming is not a singular event. It is a complex and multi-faceted event, beginning with a resurrection/rapture where the bride is gathered in the air to meet her bridegroom (Matt 24)..... and ending with Jesus and the armies of heaven coming at the Battle of Armageddon. (Rev 19).... (though that is not the end, yet)

The scripture only talks about Jesus descending down from heaven which would be his first coming, then he ascending back to heaven will come back to earth one more time, which is called the Second Coming.

These are different depictions of him coming describing different attributes of what he is doing, but it is still the same coming. It is similar to the 4 accounts of the gospel...they are saying the same thing from different vantage points but still only one gospel. Like seeing a bus hit a motorcycle at an intersection. One eyewitness saw the bus failing to stop at the light, but didn't see the motorcycle, while another eyewitness saw the motorcycle skidding and hitting the side of the bus. Its not two different wrecks...one eyewitness was on one corner and another eyewitness on another corner saw something else. 

So the one in Matthew is showing him gathering the saints from heaven and the earth, which is none other than the resurrection / rapture shown in 1 Thess. 4:16 where it says the dead in Christ shall rise first, while the same event is described by Paul saying we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed..in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye...at the last trump.

While John in Revelation is describing the same event when he says 'and the seventh angel sounded and it was the time of the dead that they should be judged and that God would reward his saints and all the prophets small and great, and the kingdoms of the his world became the kingdoms of our Lord.

These are all the same events being described from different angles as God revealed it to different people...so there is not one coming in 1 Thess. 4 that is different from the coming shown in Matthew 24 because one didn't say one thing and the other left something out.

So the coming described in Matthew 24 is showing that he gathers his elect from the four winds of heaven and the earth, which is the same event being described in 2 Thess. 2 as 'the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him.' Paul is not talking about a different coming because nothing was said about a great sound of a trumpet. 

When Rev. 19 is talking about him returning with the armies of heaven, its not talking about a different coming than Matthew 24 because Matthew 24 didn't say anything about any armies.