A Prewrath Rapture question

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8 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

It could be either one.   The point of reference is "Jesus COMING with a cloud,  but he is going TO heaven". 

Is Jesus in heaven right now?

Does he come to the earth physically 3.5 years before Armageddon?

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3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. ⁴ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This is one of the scriptures that was given as referring to Jesus coming to the earth 3. 5 years before Armageddon...am I right?

[tatwo]

9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Yes,  he is in heaven sitting at the Father's right hand.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Can you explain "heaven" and "sitting at the Fathers right hand?"

Tatwo...:)

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5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is one of the scriptures that was given as referring to Jesus coming to the earth 3. 5 years before Armageddon...am I right?

Yes

Is 1 Thess. 3:13 the same coming as the one in Zech. 14:4?

"To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

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1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Zech 14:4 is Jesus coming from heaven to earth.   Verse 5 

"and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

This is when he is returning to heaven... with the saints. 

Zech 14:4 fulfills the descent of Jesus,  found in 1Thess4:16, "For the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout..."

How is it that the same verse in Zech. 14:5 that shows  Jesus  coming down from heaven to the earth is also the same verse quoted as proof that he is returning to heaven with the saints? 

Then 1 Thess. 4:16 is quoted that he is descending from heaven with the dead in Christ and that is some how proving that Jesus is returning to heaven with the saints?

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Zech 14:5b "... the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee. " , is the companion verse of fulfillment found in 1Thess3,

Here it is shown that Zech. 14:5b is the companion verse of fulfillment of 1 Thess. 3:13 where it is also shown that he is COMING with all his saints.

These scriptures are not showing that Jesus is going to heaven with the saints...All these verses show Jesus descending from heaven with the saints to the earth.. 

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

This is when he is returning to heaven... with the saints. 

This is not when he is returning to heaven...with the saints...none of the scriptures referenced show he is returning to heaven with the saints. The reason none of these scriptures show him returning to heaven with the saints is because it never happens.

You already stated Jesus is now in heaven and have stated he COMES 3.5 years before Armageddon. If he COMES from where he now is, then he is coming from heaven, not the earth. 

The scriptures referenced show him descending from heaven to the earth with all the saints ..please show scriptures where he returns back to heaven with the all the saints.

Thank you

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20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

23 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. ⁴ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This is one of the scriptures that was given as referring to Jesus coming to the earth 3. 5 years before Armageddon...am I right?

The time frame for when Jesus stands upon the Mt. of Olives was said to be 3.5 years before Armageddon.

The verse in Zech. 14:4 says "And his foot shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives...'

Does the scripture state what day this is? Yes it does. Zech. 14:1 It says this will happen on the Day of the Lord as Zech. 14: states: 'Behold, the day of the Lord cometh..." Then he goes on to describe things that will happen on that day:

He will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle...he then goes forth and fights against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

verse 4: "And his feet shall stand in that day (the same Day of the Lord as in verse 1) upon the Mt. of Olives...' 

There are some things that must take place before this Day of the Lord comes. 

Acts 2:20 states "The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord comes."

 Jesus said in Matthew 24 that the sun would be darkened, and moon would not give her light, and the stars would fall from heaven immediately after the tribulation of those days not 3.5 years before Armageddon which would be at the beginning of the tribulation of those days. 

Rev. 6:12  shows that the sun became black and the moon became as blood at the 6th seal, which is again just before Jesus comes at Armageddon, not 3.5 years before Armageddon. 

 

[WilliamL]

On 1/12/2022 at 3:50 PM, AdHoc said:

"Unsupported presumption" ... I think not. You were unable to show it wrong. That is why we discuss.

You have it backward: it is you who needs to show your presumption right. Which you did not do in the post.

On 1/12/2022 at 3:50 PM, AdHoc said:

My contention was that the "wrath" pertains to a PERSON, and your contention is that it belongs to one Seal.

No, my contention is that the Wrath of God begins at the 6th Seal, and is not completed until the 7th Bowl. If it began at the 1st Seal, it would have said so there. But neither Rev. 6 nor Matt. 24:5-28 say or indicate any such thing. So it remains pure speculation on your part. As we are told in 1 Thes. 5:9, the Church 'is not appointed to wrath'; therefore, the Church is removed at the 6th Seal, at which point God's Wrath then begins.

On 1/13/2022 at 6:52 AM, AdHoc said:

If one goes back to all the prophecies of the sun, moon and heavenly lights darkened, it at once becomes evident that the darkening of the heavenly luminaries is connected to the "day of battle". The question then is;

1. To what extent is the wrath of God exercised?
2. Why are the powers of heaven shaken and not earth?

Again, you make a presumption: that there will be only one time in the End Times that the sun and moon are darkened. This is simply not true. One such period comes at the opening of the 6th Seal = Matt. 24:29. Another comes at the 4th Trumpet --

Rev. 8:12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

-- and a third comes at the Battle of Armageddon:

Joel 3:15 The sun and moon will grow dark,
And the stars will diminish their brightness.

16 The LORD also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the LORD will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.

There will also be three great earthquakes in the End Times, including one that shakes both heaven and earth (which contradicts your question # 2):

Heb. 12:26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.”

16. The Three Earthquakes of Revelation

Shows why the earthquakes of Rev. 6:12, 11:13, and 16:18 are indeed three separate quakes, and not, as some claim, all the same one.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1089-the-three-earthquakes-of-revelation/

 

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You have it backward: it is you who needs to show your presumption right. Which you did not do in the post.

No, my contention is that the Wrath of God begins at the 6th Seal, and is not completed until the 7th Bowl. If it began at the 1st Seal, it would have said so there. But neither Rev. 6 nor Matt. 24:5-28 say or indicate any such thing. So it remains pure speculation on your part. As we are told in 1 Thes. 5:9, the Church 'is not appointed to wrath'; therefore, the Church is removed at the 6th Seal, at which point God's Wrath then begins.

Again, you make a presumption: that there will be only one time in the End Times that the sun and moon are darkened. This is simply not true. One such period comes at the opening of the 6th Seal = Matt. 24:29. Another comes at the 4th Trumpet --

Rev. 8:12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

-- and a third comes at the Battle of Armageddon:

Joel 3:15 The sun and moon will grow dark,
And the stars will diminish their brightness.

16 The LORD also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the LORD will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.

There will also be three great earthquakes in the End Times, including one that shakes both heaven and earth (which contradicts your question # 2):

Heb. 12:26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.”

16. The Three Earthquakes of Revelation

Shows why the earthquakes of Rev. 6:12, 11:13, and 16:18 are indeed three separate quakes, and not, as some claim, all the same one.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1089-the-three-earthquakes-of-revelation/

 

Your posting is read and noted. Thanks for the swapping of ideas.

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On 1/16/2022 at 3:30 PM, Da Puppers said:

The scripture does not show Christ "descending" from heaven with the saints,  dead or alive.   It is a fallacious interpretation that has molded a traditional interpretation into a "factual" one.   The dead in Christ RISE with him,  not descend with him.   Therein lies the error in understanding.   "Rise" is not the word used to describe someone being raised/ resurrected from death. 

When you say Zech. 14:5 shows that all the saints rise to heaven, are you saying Jesus comes down to the Mt. of Olives and picks up all the saints and takes them to heaven 3.5 years before he comes back the third time at Armageddon?

Another question is who are the saints that go up to heaven with Jesus 3.5 years before he comes back the third time at Armageddon?

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53 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

He only takes the dead in Christ with him at that time... at the time of the first trumpet. 

So am I understanding you correctly that the dead in Christ are resurrected 3.5 years before Armageddon?