A Prewrath Rapture question

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Rev. 11:18 'Now is the time of the dead that they should be judged..."

The dead have to be resurrected before they can be judged...it is not true that no resurrection is going to happen at the 7th Trumpet...It is the time of the dead....meaning they will be resurrected and judged...and seeing the dead in Christ are resurrected and judged and rewarded at this time, it is not at all a stretch to say the rapture happens immediately after this resurrection as it states in 1 Thess. 5...'the dead in Christ will raise FIRST and THEN (or immediately after) we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the air..." this is the time stated that this would happen...at the 7th Trumpet, exactly in agreement with what Jesus said that all that believe on him will be resurrected at the last day...

Gary, did you not notice WHO SAID those words?

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying...

They are prophesying, speaking of events soon to come.  Every event they mention happens later in the book of Revelation. Why are these things said and written here?

It is because Adam's 6000 year lease has expired, Satan is no longer the god of this world (at that future time) and Jesus has taken to Himself His great power and has begun to reign of the kingdoms of the world. 

What people find very hard to believe is that one of the first things Jesus does as He begins to reign, is to delegate 42 months of authority to the Beast (and to Satan behind the Beast).

You are very mistaken in imagining the rapture at the 7th trumpet. We must respect John's chronology. Wrath will have started over 3.5 years before the 7th trumpet will sound.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The link only has to be made that Paul said the dead in Christ would raise FIRST, (before the rapture) the time of the dead is at the 7th Trumpet, it is also in agreement with Jesus saying the last day, it is also in agreement with Paul saying we will all be changed at the last trump. 

When people speak of the rapture today, they are including the Dead in Christ plus the alive in Christ. I see no reason why we should separate them since they both will happen in a moment of time. We all know the Dead in Christ are first.

Did you notice how you are contradicting yourself? The dead cannot rise "on the last day" and at the 7th trumpet at the same time, since these two events will be separated by 3.5 years. We MUST honor John's chronology.

The 70th-week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week.

 

I need to ask a question.  If you wish to learn, I will spend time here. On the other hand, if you only wish to teach what you think you know, then I will be wasting my time.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Yes, you are correct...this is when Jesus begins to reign over all the earth...at his coming. 

That is what it states happens at the 7th Trumpet:

"Thou hast taken to thee thy great power and hast reigned..."

Gary, You MISSED something here.

There is NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. John is VERY clear that His coming to Armageddon will be in chapter 19, after the tribulation.

The 7th trumpet MYSTERY event is very simple: it is a property closing in the court room of heaven: the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. 

The point is, Jesus stays in heaven. He will not return until after the tribulation.

Don't even think you can move the 7th trumpet to the end of the week. ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong.

Do you not believe Jesus can "reign" from heaven?

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is in accordance with Mathew 25 when it says Jesus comes ....it says 'When the Son of man comes in all his glory...THEN shall be sit upon the throne of his glory...'

When he comes, then he begins to reign on this earth...as other translations have translated Rev. 11:18-

NIV - "For now you have assumed your power and have begun to reign..."

ESV - "For you have taken your great power and begun to reign..."

RSV - "and begun to reign..."

NLT - "and have begun to reign..."

CSB - "and have begun to reign.."

Jesus reign began when He rose from the dead and ascended - but His reign then was only over the church. He will begin to reign over the kingdoms of the world at the 7th trumpet. 

Mattthew 25: WHEN He comes...

John is very clear that His coming to reign is after the tribulation of those days. How then can you even imagine a coming at the 7th trumpet. How many "comings" is included in your theory?

The truth is, He will begin His reign over the kingdoms of the earth at the 7th trumpet that will mark the exact midpoint of the week. But, strange as it may sound, one of the first things He will do is delegate 42 months of authority to Satan and the Beast.

You could say that He will CONTINUE to reign when He comes.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

 

Acts and Joel states 'The sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood before that great and notable day of the Lord come." 

These events happen at the sixth seal which is just before the tribulation period ends, not before it starts...

Let's see how it is you put the end before the beginning. 

In what chapter of Revelation is the 6th seal events found? Chapter 6.

What chapter would be "after the tribulation of those days?" Chapter 17. (The 70th-week will end at the 7th vial.)

What you miss: EVERY EVENT written in chapters 7 through 16 must and certainly will take place BETWEEN the 6th seal events and His coming as shown in Rev. 19.

In short, your theory DESTROYS John's chronology. Have you no respect for his chronology? (It was God-given.)

My guess is, you saw the signs in the sun, moon and stars written in Matthew 24 and assumed they were the very same signs as written in Joel 2 and Rev. 6 at the 6th seal.

The truth is, these are two very different signs, for two every different events, and will separated by over 7 years of time.

IF God had shown John the cosmic signs written in Matthew 24, they would probably be written in Revelation 19. But John did not see them so did not write of them.

In short, the signs at the 6th seal will probably be total eclipses of the sun and the moon. They will be VISIBLE signs - people would have to SEE the moon to see that it is red. This is the sign for the coming Day of the Lord) (His coming pretrib will be the trigger for the Day.)

On the other hand, the signs in Matthew speak of total darkness. Strong's tells us of "darkened" that when speaking of heavenly bodies it means devoid or the absence of light. 

This will be the sign for the coming of our Lord to Armageddon.

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Re-read what you just posted. 

If the rapture comes before the DoL, then the rapture is NOT part of the DoL. 

What is it in scripture other than 1 Thes. 4&5 that leads you to conclude the "last day" could include the last day could include the DoL? 
 

Is John, in fact, "very clear" the DoL starts before the 70th week? I cannot find any mention of "the day of the Lord" in John's gospels, his epistles, or the book of Revelation. How can he be very clear about something he never mentions? 

The Day of the Lord, and the Day of His wrath are synonymous terms. 
If you had searched for the Day of His wrath, you would have found it. ;-)

Isaiah tells us the Day of the Lord comes with God's wrath and fierce anger._I can see then why John might call the Day  - "the Day of His wrath."

If you wish to argue that the Day of His wrath is something different than the Day of the Lord, we probably won't find much we can agree on.

Since the DAY starts at the 6th seal, and the WEEK starts at the 7th, I therefore believe the DAY starts before the WEEK. I trust in John's chronology.

[iamlamad]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Re-read what you just posted. 

If the rapture comes before the DoL, then the rapture is NOT part of the DoL. 

What is it in scripture other than 1 Thes. 4&5 that leads you to conclude the "last day" could include the last day could include the DoL? 
 

Is John, in fact, "very clear" the DoL starts before the 70th week? I cannot find any mention of "the day of the Lord" in John's gospels, his epistles, or the book of Revelation. How can he be very clear about something he never mentions? 

 

According to my search of the New Testament the phrase, "Day of the Lord" is mentioned only six times, and none of them are by Jesus and none of them are by John. Curiously, one of those mentions is in Acts 2 where Peter quotes the Old Testament prophet Joel to say Joel's prophecy about the day of the Lord was coming true right then and there at Pentecost. 

Acts 2:14-21
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

Joel 2's prophecy about God pouring out His Spirit came true a Pentecost, and having poured out His Spirit in those days, God would show wonders and before the sun turned into darkness the great and notable day of the Lord would come. That's what Peter said, according to Luke, and he was speaking under the direct influence of the Spirit at Pentecost. 

Yet, Paul and Peter both told the readers of their respective epistles the DoL had not yet come. It was coming after Pentecost, but had not yet come by the time of 2 Peter (circa 65 AD). 

 

 

So where can I find John clearly saying the DoL starts just before the 70th week. 

Try looking at the 6th seal. 

Keep in mind, the 6th seal is between the 5th and 7th and CANNOT be moved. It will be opened before the 7th seal.

When the last seal is opened, then the BOOK is opened to reveal 7 angels about to receive 7 trumpets...

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Biblican said:

Good insight. I always thought that there could be two literal individuals representing the the remnant church. It was interesting to me that the rejected five virgins in Jesus' parable are told to go and buy the oil for their lamps. Considering that at that time before Jesus' coming that the parable represents, the mark was in place, but the virgins could go and buy. Their oil went out because they had been duped into thinking it was okay to take the mark,.

I have often thought the two witnesses will be the two men who never died.

This poses a question: when will the door shut: before the pretrib rapture of later in the week? Will the beheaded saints still be allowed into the marriage?

Edited March 18, 2022 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, Biblican said:

I think that there can be two literal men representatives of the remnant church that is functioning at that time. Remember Paul said there would be an apostasy. One of my relatives had a prophetic dream that there would only be  very few left that were still faithful to the gospel. They were represented to him as evergreen trees. Philadelphia represents that church as she is seen cleaving to God's word.

The churches then were not just Jewish. When John had his visons Jerusalem had been destroyed and the church had spread to the Gentiles. The seven churches can represent the churches through the ages and we can see the apostasy beginning with the Ephesians then progressing to the end, but at the same time the seven can represent the spiritual conditions of the church in every age. Today a pastor can have people who harbor all of those conditions in one church. You have compromised Jezebel spirits, imbalanced Ephesians, Christians like Pergamos who have married foreign wives (doctrine), liberal Christians like Sardis who no longer believe Jesus is the only way, and lukewarm complacent Laodiceans, faithful, uncompromised Philadelphians and Smyrnans.

The tribulation does not begin until after the antichrist has polluted the holy of holies as Jesus said. Everything leading up to that is "The Beginning of sorrows" which includes a lot of natural disasters. The church will still be here during this time which I see as correlating to the warning period of the trumpets. The 144/two witnesses are taken up before the last trumpet sounds and the tribulation begins at the end of Rev. 14. We can see a lot of death going on in those passages. Only the faithful remnant is raptured, the remaining apostate church will go though it and there will be new Christians coming to the Lord at that time. Then the Lord returns. The Apostle Paul in Thessalonians is describing that pre-wrath rapture when the dead in Christ rise first at His coming, and all the remaining Christians that have survived the Trib are gathered. This will be the only time there will be no true Christians on earth. A lot of people confuse Paul's description as a pre trib rapture instead of the first resurrection, which is not the case as you have rightly observed.

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 The tribulation does not begin until after the antichrist has polluted the holy of holies as Jesus said. 

I disagree. "The tribulation" in most people's thinking is the same as "the 70th-week." It is the entire 7 years. God marked those 7 years with 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.

However, God and John start the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal. Therefore, every event of the 70th-week will come with His wrath.

The beginning of sorrows starts with the beginning of the church age. Jesus wrote "end is not yet" for the church age. In other words, the wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes are all part of the church age.

For some reason, Jesus skipped right over the first half of the week, and started talking about "the end" with the abomination that would divide the week.

John also did not signify by words where the week would begin, when someone would confirm a covenant with Israel. My guess is, that confirming of a covenant will be done in secret, or by several men, so no one will know who the man of sin will be until he enters the temple and declares he is God.

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the tribulation begins at the end of Rev. 14.

I would say that is where the days of great tribulation begin. The Week will be half over by that time: all of the trumpet judgments will have sounded.

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The 144/two witnesses are taken up before the last trumpet sounds

Sorry, but the 144,000 are not the Two witnesses. These are separate entities. I do believe the 144,000 are caught up around the midpoint of the week. But the two witnesses only show up and begin their testimony just days before the midpoint. I believe they show up then because the man of sin just moved to Jerusalem with His Gentile army, who will then trample the city for 42 months. 

The two witnesses will probably testify for 3.5 days, then the man of sin will enter the temple and the abomination will happen, those in Judea will begin to flee, Satan will be cast down, Jesus will begin to reign over the world, all at the 7th trumpet. 

The two witnesses will then prophecy for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week. They will lay dead those 3.5 days and be resurrected "on the last day" with all the other Old Testament saints, plus the beheaded saints.

Perhaps you have not discovered it, but Revelation 11:4 through 13 is written as a parenthesis outside of John's chronology.  John takes the readers on a side journey down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only, then in verse 14, snaps right back to the exact midpoint of the week.

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The Apostle Paul in Thessalonians is describing that pre-wrath rapture when the dead in Christ 

Yes, it will be prewrath, but it will also be pretrib, because the "trib" or 70th week will not begin until the 7th seal.

I now understand you are of the "prewrath" persuasion.

Edited March 18, 2022 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Seeing that Paul said 'the day of the Lord would not come except there come a falling away FIRST, and the man of sin be revealed...Paul was telling them these two things had to happen BEFORE the day of the Lord would come...If everything had already been fulfilled and he could come at any time, he would not have told them these things have to happen first...

It is not imagination that states he was talking about both the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him:

'Now we beseech you brethren 'by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (Second Coming) and our gathering together unto him, (resurrection/ rapture) ....he then goes on to say that THAT DAY would NOT COME except there come a falling away first.  What does pre-trib say? It says 'THAT DAY (The coming of the Lord) and our gathering together unto him (the resurrection / rapture) will come BEFORE the falling away and the man of sin is revealed...

Scripture says 'Will not come before..'

Pre- Trib says 'Will come before...'

'Will not come before' , and 'will come before' are exact opposites.

 Please show me the scripture where Paul said the rapture would come before the Day of the Lord. 

Please show me the scripture where Paul told them in person that the rapture would be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord.

The departing Paul was talking about was not that the 'church was taken out of the way...' How ridiculous would that be for him to tell them that? When you see you are raptured then know you are in the day of the Lord? 

If the word 'departing' means that they would be raptured it would be the same as saying 'Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (in which the rapture will take place) will not come except the rapture comes first...." Or in other words it would be like saying...'The rapture will not come unless the rapture comes first...which is nonsense...

The falling away is not the rapture...the falling away is the Greek word #646 in Strongs which means, 'defection, apostasy.' This is in accordance with what Jesus said...'Then shall many be offended (Strongs #4624 - 'to cause to fall away..to cause a person to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey, to entice to sin) ...and shall betray one another...and because iniquity would abound, the love of many would wax cold."

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Scripture says 'Will not come before..'

Pre- Trib says 'Will come before...'

You only imagine Scripture says "will not come before."

Picture in your mind John's time-line in Revelation: the 7th week begins in chapter 8 with the 7th seal. So to be pretrib, the rapture only needs to come before Rev. 8:1.

Paul tells us HIS rapture/gathering will come just before wrath. So where on John's timeline does He begin God's wrath? That would be at the 6th seal where he wrote "the Day of His wrath is come."

Does 6 come before 7? Yes, every day of the week. That is why millions believe in the pretrib rapture.

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Please show me the scripture where Paul told them in person that the rapture would be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord.

We don't have that information. It is just common sense that Paul taught them in person the same things he wrote. What we do have is this: "⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

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The departing Paul was talking about was not that the 'church was taken out of the way...' How ridiculous would that be for him to tell them that? When you see you are raptured then know you are in the day of the Lord? 

Paul was being facetious. They THOUGHT they were in the Day of the Lord. This was Paul's way of showing them they were NOT. 

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'Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (in which the rapture will take place) will not come except the rapture comes first...."

No, that is not quite right. The rapture is NOT equal to the DAY nor is the DAY equal to the rapture. However, they are connected: the rapture will come first and THEN the DAY will come. Isaiah wrote that the Day would come with God's wrath and fierce anger." NONE of those words fit the rapture. God has no wrath against His church. The rapture will be the trigger for the DAY.

'Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (of God's wrath and fierce anger) will not come except the rapture comes first...."

See how easy that was to fix? I used scripture to explain the DAY.

So you are saying that a falling away is the same as "taking out of the way." 
You are saying that the restraining force is the falling away. That is like saying that evil is restraining evil. Sorry, I don't buy that.

Please explain how the man of sin gets revealed in 3b in light of verses 6-8?
Please explain why Paul wrote, "and now you know what (who) is restraining..." in verse 6.

Edited March 18, 2022 by iamlamad