A Prewrath Rapture question

[transmogrified]

Hello Biblican-

 

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 The pre-trib calling up of the remnant church

Are you saying the church gets raptured before the tribulation? 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Biblican said:

The time of Jacob's trouble can't begin until after Israel is invaded and the antichrist is revealed. In Revelation Israel's invasion is not until chapter 11. That in itself is not the great tribulation. That happens when the antichrist is trying to kill everyone who will not worship him after he is reveal and desecraters the temple. The 70th week can cover the time frame from chapter eight on, but it is not confined within seven literal years, and the whole period does not represent the great tribulation. The times in Daniel's vison are symbolic. The times noted for the construction of the temple and the city are much longer than what it took to actually build them which was much shorter. The 490 years is there just to pin point the generation when Jesus arrived counting from the command to build the city. So based on that symbolism in Daniel, the last week, the shorter time span in the prophecy can represent the longer time span. In other words, the last week is not a literal seven years. The events from the The seventh trumpet marks the beginning of the tribulation in the end of Rev. 14. Rev 12 and 13 are bridges or details inserted to described the reason for Israel's and the churches' persecution in 12 and the description of the beasts in 13. We have to cross these bridges to get to the fulfillment of the seventh trumpet in 14 and on. 

What you are seeing is a mid week point in the sounding of the seventh trumpet which can be the middle of a much longer time span that seven years, It has to be because the events described have to cover a longer period of time.

Sorry, my friend, but Jacob had to work an EXTRA 7 YEARS for the woman he loved.

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The times in Daniel's vison are symbolic.

Give us a symbolic break!

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The 490 years is there just to pin point the generation

Have you read Sir Robert Anderson's Book? He said Daniel was accurate to the very day.

 

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can represent the longer time span. In other words, the last week is not a literal seven years.

Then John's 1260 days and 42 months must also be symbolic. I doubt that. 
These numbers are real numbers as half of a 7 year period, 360 day years.

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marks the beginning of the tribulation

Do you mean the beginning of the 70th-week? If so, you are off by 3.5 years.

You don't understand chapters 12 and 13 either. They are very much a part of John's timeline. Chapter 12 had TWO countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week.

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In other words, the last week is not a literal seven years.

John disagrees with you giving us 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end pointing to 1260 days, or 42 months or time, times and half of time. Make no mistake, the last half of the week is 1260 days exactly. If the last half is 1260 days, then the first half will be the same. Therefore I disagree with you. 

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We have to cross these bridges to get to the fulfillment of the seventh trumpet in 14 and on. 

The 7th trumpet will be sounded in heaven to mark the exact moment the man of sin will enter the temple and the abomination will take place. It is the third woe, but the real woe will be Satan cast down VERY shortly after the midpoint. The 7th trumpet will be Michael's signal to take Satan down.

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It has to be because the events described have to cover a longer period of time.

Why don't you just believe John? 1260 days for the last half of the week.

360 times 7 equals 2520 days, divide by 2 equals 1260.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Biblican said:

Yes, the beheaded saints are the bride as are all who have actively served the Lord in their lifetimes. The servants sent to call those to the wedding feast in Jesus' parable, are the bride. And the virgins do also represent the church, and the half that have remained faithful are the bride.  The "guests" are still saved but they are believers, not disciples. In other words, even though they are saved, they have not actively served, either through lack of opportunity, receiving the Lord at the last minute before death, or some other reason. Yet they are all still counted as one holy city New Jerusalem that the Lord inhabits.

Do you have a scripture? I have not seen one.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Agreed. God has not appointed the saints unto wrath. No saint will be subject to God's wrath... Even if they are in the time of great tribulation God is not going to pour out his wrath on them. Even though it is commonly taught that we must be raptured because God has not appointed us unto wrath it is stated in Tim Lahaye's  book 'Revelation Unveiled,' that the believers during this time will be exempt from his wrath as it states on page 172:

"Believers exempt from this judgement"

"...verse 4 tells us that they have power to hurt only those men who have not the seal of god on their foreheads. Just as God protected the children of Israel in the land of Goshen from the plagues of Egypt,, so he will protect his children during the tribulation period. As the lord Jesus said, 'But he who stands firm to the end will be saved.' God will preserve his believers from the tribulation judgments inflicting the earth. So far the only means by which Christians will die in this period is martyrdom..."

It appears then that the verse 'we are not appointed unto wrath,' does not require anyone to be raptured before the tribulation after all, seeing the saints will not suffer his wrath whether they are in the great tribulation or not. 

Gary, please make your posts "bite sized." 

It is true that the stinging Locusts will be a part of God's wrath. What you have mixed up is the believers seal of the Holy Spirit IS NOT the seal in the forehead given to the 144,000. Any one that turns to God during the week will be subject to being stung - all except the 144,000. Just to make this clear, our seal is the Holy Spirit in our spirit. 

What "requires" us to be raptured is the start of God's wrath as in the start of the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal. The rapture must and will come before the 6th seal and after the 5th seal. This is proven by John seeing the just-raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal events as that great crowd, too large to number. 

Take careful note: John has not yet started the 70th-week. This is before the tribulation or Week.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Here is where the timing of the resurrection is so crucial.

It has been acknowledged that the resurrection must take place first, but it has not been acknowledged WHEN this resurrection takes place. If the resurrection takes place before the tribulation, then of course the rapture would also take place before the tribulation.

However, because the resurrection does not take place before the tribulation, then neither does the rapture take place before the tribulation. If the resurrection is put into its proper time frame then the scripture would say this:

"For the dead in Christ shall rise first (on the last day) then (immediately after the resurrection on the Last day) we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

The scripture does not show the saints in heaven until Rev. 19 just before they return with Jesus to Armageddon. It starts out:

Sorry, Gary, but I and John disagree with you here. Your theory only will work if you rearrange Revelation - move the marriage and supper from heaven to later on the earth. ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation is going to be proven wrong. 

If "the last day" is the day Jesus returns, He only gets on his horse AFTER the marriage and supper are finished. 

And just so you know, John SAW the saints in heaven in chapter 7: between the 6th and 7th seals, so before the tribulation or 70th-week will begin. 

By the way, taking Paul at His word (the rapture before wrath) and taking John at his word (wrath starting before the Week) Revelation needs to changing or rearranging. 

What problems do you have with believing that great crowd too large to number is the just-raptured church? If you don't believe they are, they who are they in your thinking?

Why put so much weight so to speak on JOhn chapter 6, and so little weight on what Paul wrote? Jesus said that LONG before God the Father chose to send Paul to the Gentiles. What Paul wrote was STRICTLY for the Gentile church. It does not have to agree with the gospels, and in some cases don't.

Paul is quite clear that the rapture will come just before wrath. Do you believe this? If so, then do you agree with John that Wrath starts before the Week?

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Please tell me when this feast occurs and who will be in it. 

Please provide evidence that the saints are resurrected to heaven before the tribulation to go the marriage supper. If the believers are not resurrected until the last day, no one would be there.

 

 

Time after time someone has died, went to heaven, then got prayed back to their body, and they then testify they have SEEN the preparations for the marriage supper taking place: chairs (with name tags) and tables as far as the eye can see. More recently people have testified that the preparations are finished and heaven is now waiting for the church.
Others have testified of seeing mansions being built, and a few have been able to see THEIR mansion. But more recently others have testified that they were told all the mansions are finished: heaven is waiting for the Bride.

When such testimonies agree with the written word, I believe them. One such man, Gary L Wood, has spoken in my city twice and I heard His testimony twice. His neck was broken in two places, and he was pronounced dead. But his sister would not allow him to stay dead. She prayed him back. His voice box was crushed and also cut in half. But God healed everything and He can speak. He showed us exrays of his broken neck.

The Marriage feast will follow the marriage IN HEAVEN right when and where John placed them.  AFter the 70th week, after "the last day" of the week (the 7th vial) and after the Old Testament saints rise.

The evidence is first Paul's letters, then second, John SEEING the raptured church in heaven as that great crowd, too large to number. Prewrath believes that great crowd is the just raptured church. So do I. There will be no other group mentioned in Revelation that will be too large to number.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you know it was invented in the 19th century, less than 200 years ago?

I don't believe that. Do you suppose Martin Luther "invented" salvation by faith? No, he discovered it by reading.

Dispensations have been in the Word of God since it was written. Someone just put a name to the changes. 

Are you ready to admit there are changes? For example, from LAW to the time of Emmanuel? 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There were no saints in heaven before the resurrection on the last day...this is when the dead in Christ rise up to heaven...meaning they were not in heaven before. How would they get married to Jesus if they weren't there until the last day? 

If the ceremony means the wedding then they would have to be there. Please provide evidence that shows any saints were ever resurrected to heaven before the last day.

Blessings to you- Gary

JOhn saw a crowd too large to number in heaven. You are simply mistaken.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

lol! Actually, it was fourteen, and he was blessed. I've been working 25 years for the woman I love . 

 

Just saying

Genesis 29:20

And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

I can cite numerous leading Dispensationalist explicitly stating John Darby is the guy who started the theology we know call "Dispensational Premillennialism." The term "dispensation" can be found in the Bible and the early Church fathers used the term "dispensation" and some of them expressed premillennial views eschatologically, but they ALWAYS wrote of dispensations within the context of the stated covenants, not as Darby defined them centuries later. Darby literally invented an entirely new hermeneutic never before heard of or used prior to his doing so. 

This is documented history. 

I can evidence these facts for you with other Dispensational sources, not antagonistic sources. Just ask and I will gladly post it. 

I do hope that is not intended to mean the demonstrable facts of history are denied. 

People can and do say anything.  Darby may well have discovered dispensations, but I rather think it was just like Martin Luther "discovered" salvation by faith alone. It was in the bible all along.

Did Darby get it right? We will know that when we arrive in heaven. I personally think he missed a very important dispensation: the dispensation of Emmanuel: God with us.

If I was forced to choose between DArby's doctrine and Calvin's, I would pick Darby's 100 times out of 100. But I am basing this on TULIP. To be truthful,  I have never studied his covenant theology. 

The big question is, did Darby create this theory out of nothing - or did he find hints in the bible? We will find out the truth when we get there.

I most certainly believe in Premillennialism.