A Prewrath Rapture question

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Biblican said:

I haven't swallowed any false prewrath doctrine, and I don't even know who Van Kampen and Rosenthal are. The sixth seal is a picture of the martyrs' vindication which happens in the future. The sixth seal was opened in the throne room and is a vison of the principles that operate in the last days. In the previous seals we are shown the persecutors of the church in the horses, the persecuted and then God shows them that they will be vindicated by showing them the future earthquakes. It is a vison of the bowl judgments and is not intended to mean that those events are happening when they the seals are opened.

In Thessalonians Paul is teaching from Matthew 24.  "After the tribulation of those days" the time of Jacob's trouble, which is the end of Rev. 14, Jesus' sign, most likely the cross, appears in the sky and He sends HIs angels to gather His elect and the dead in Christ are raised. This happens before the bowl judgments in Rev. 8 which is the time of God's wrath and when there will be no true Christians on the planet. This is the first resurrection not the rapture. The rapture happens before the tribulation in 11 and before Rev. 14. The tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble and is not the out poring of God's wrath on the beast.

The crowds in Rev. 15 are the same people in seen chapter seven that have gone through the tribulation. Chapter seven is a vision of that time in the future we see in 15, and does not mean that it is has happened in chapter seven. As I said before you can in your mind superimpose chapter seven over chapter 14 and 15 and you see the same two groups of people the 144 and the crowds. The 144 have been raptured as we see in chapter 11, and are in heaven before the tribulation and the remaining church that has survived the tribulation are taken out before the bowl judgments, when Jesus' sign appears in the sky and He sends His angels. Again we are not moving the 6th seal, it is a vison of the events that will actually happen in chapter 16.

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The sixth seal is a picture of the martyrs' vindication which happens in the future.

Sorry, but I am going with John on this: the sixth seal is the start of the Day of the Lord.

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The sixth seal was opened in the throne room and is a vison of the principles that operate in the last days.

You have not one scripture that hints of this. It is therefore human imagination.

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In the previous seals we are shown the persecutors of the church in the horses

Close, but wrong. The last three horses represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God LIMITED them to only 1/4 of the earth - OF COURSE that quarter where the gospel began, Jerusalem. The White horse represents the gospel sent out to the nations.

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is not intended to mean that those events are happening when they the seals are opened.

No, not true. When a seal is opened in reality (not in a vision) the events happen RIGHT THEN. This book with the seals is a LEGAL document. Imagine, if no one was found worthy to take the book and open the first seal, it would have been ILLEGAL for God to send out the church into the devil's world.

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In Thessalonians Paul is teaching from Matthew 24. 

This is MYTH! The thes. letters were probably the first part of the New Testament written down.

I give up. I know you are trying to get me to think as you do here, but that is not going to happen. We disagree on every point. All I can say is, I hope what you believe works out well for you.

By the way, the real rapture IS prewrath, because it will come just before the 6th seal begins God's wrath. But it is also PRETRIB because God does not start the tribulation or 70th week until the 7th seal.

Grace to you in the name of our Lord Jesus!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Since there appears to be very real difficulty in refraining from telling me what I think or believe I am going to move on from this thread to others where less personally judgmental, derisive, and incorrect attributions are made. If and when I read op-relevant inquiry or commentary that is not couched in personal attack I will reconsider. Thanks for taking the time to answer (most of) my questions and engage the topic of pre-wrath rapture.

Hallelujah!!!

[iamlamad]

35 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No, it does not. That has absolutely nothing to do with what Peter was saying. It also has nothing to do with my point. My point was that people sometimes abuse Peter's use of the psalmist to conflate "day" with "at hand." The two are not the same and it is always a mistake to treat them as synonymous. 

Josh, please show me the verses you were thinking of, with "quickly" and "at hand."

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Josh, please show me the verses you were thinking of, with "quickly" and "at hand."

Never mind. 

I was just thinking: it is impossible for us living inside of time, to view time the way God would view it living OUTSIDE of time. Perhaps "time" means very little to God. Perhaps any time or all time is NOW to God.

I personally don't think Jesus has come, in spite of "quickly" and "at hand." I think we must look at those from God's perspective. After all, is two days a long delay?

I guess there were people with your mindset in Peter's day - thinking God would not return to fulfill what he promised.

2 Pet. 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.

Jesus hinted at a long delay in a parable:

 Mat. 24:48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’  

This parable is in Matthew 24.

It seems you put a lot of weight, so to speak, on three words, quickly (could be suddenly), "at hand."
I on the other hand, put a lot of weight, so to speak, on Paul's rapture passages and on John's chronology in Revelation.

[transmogrified]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

That is because the marriage and supper must wait for the Old Testament saints plus the Two witnesses plus the beheaded to be raised first, so all at the marriage will have resurrection bodies. I believe the OT saints, including the beheaded and Two Witnesses will be raised "on the last day" at the 7th vial.

Right, so everyone who places any resurrection before the last day almost inevitably has to have two resurrections at two different times...which of course violates what Paul said when he said 'We shall ALL be changed at the last trump...' not part of changed before the 7th trumpet and the other part changed at the 7th trump...'

If the focus should be as Gentiles focusing on Paul's epistles, then this is Paul's epistle telling them what the mystery was...he did not say 'Heres the mystery...part of will be changed before the last trump, and the other part will be changed at the last trump...'

This is re-wording scripture to fit the pre-trib narrative...If Paul wanted us to think the saints would be broken up into two resurrections at two different time he would not have said just the opposite..

It becomes similar to Jesus telling the Pharisees...don't claim you are following Moses...if you were following Moses you would be following Me for Moses spoke of me...but the church cannot say 'I am following Paul because I am a Gentile believer, then turn around and deny what Paul himself said.

1) When Paul said 'We shall ALL be changed at the last trump, did he mean PART of us shall be changed at the last trump and the other part changed before the last trump?'

2) When Jesus said 'All believers will be raised on the last day, did he mean PART of the believers will be raised on the last day?'

These are PLAIN WORDS that do not require any interpretation at all...they are not parables or riddles or dark sayings...these are very plain statements and they are openly rejected. 

Another person would not admit Paul even said the words 'We shall all be changed at the last trump...' He wasn't even giving an alternative explanation for what it said...he just literally said the words themselves did not even exist in the Bible.

It is openly rejected right here...When Jesus said all believers will be raised on the last day, the response is 'Im not believing this line about all believers being raised on the last day..'

A person can not be pre-trib and also not be pre-trib...a person can not say the rapture happens pre-trib and also say it happens at the sixth seal...a person can not say they believe Jesus and also not believe what he said...a person can not say they follow Paul and also not follow Paul. 

This is not rocket science...this is plain English like 'See Jane walk...see Spot run...' Like when God told Saul to destroy everyone cattle sheep young and old, he had his own 'explanation for why he didn't do it...'

God is not looking for explanations on why we don't believe him...he does not say 'I will raise up all believers on the last day,' so it can be 'explained' to mean he will not do what he said he would do.

God is not looking for our explanation as to why we don't believe Paul when he said 'We shall all be changed at the last trump..'

When God told them to cast their net on the other side, he was not looking for their explanation as to why they thought it wouldn't work...they gave their statement, 'Lord we have toiled all night and have caught nothing, BUT AT THY WORD we will do what you say...'

The battle is in casting down imaginations and EVERY HIGH THING that exalts itself against the knowledge of God...

The knowledge of God says 'We will all be changed at the last trump...' our own imagination says 'We will not all be changed at the last trump..' This is an imagination that has to be cast down...We can't be all changed at the last trump and also not all be changed at the last trump.

Very basic....God says 'Don't eat of this one tree...' The devil says 'Hath God said don't eat of every tree?' YES God said Don't eat of every tree! 

When God says 'We shall all be changed at the last trump,' and the devil says 'Will all of the believers really be changed at the last trump? then answer him 'YES God said We shall all be changed at the last trump!" 

There are some things for sure that are hard to understand...but this is not one of them...it is so simple and straight forward a child can understand it. Its not a matter of being hard to understand, its a matter of refusing to acknowledge what is plainly stated.

What I am getting at is an 'explanation' will reinforce the reason why something is stated, or give additional detail as to why it must be as it is written...so for example you may not understand why the plan shows the foundation is supposed to extend out there 150' because you don't think it would fit or some other reason. Saying it should only extend out 100' rather than 150' like the plan shows is not 'explaining' anything...that is 'changing' the plan, not 'explaining' it. 

This is what is going on in these dialogues...The 'explained' version contradicts what was originally said...it was not an explanation...it was changing the text under the guise of explaining it...in other words, the text, 'we shall all be changed at the last trump cannot be explained to mean that we really won't all be changed at the last trump...'  

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by transmogrified

[transmogrified]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The timeline goes with one day being as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day...

No, it does not. That has absolutely nothing to do with what Peter was saying. It also has nothing to do with my point. My point was that people sometimes abuse Peter's use of the psalmist to conflate "day" with "at hand." The two are not the same and it is always a mistake to treat them as synonymous. 

I do not know exactly what you believe so forgive me but I need you to fill in some of the gaps...are you thinking everything Jesus said was fulfilled back in the 70 AD era?

[transmogrified]

25 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No. When the scriptures state the person(s) to whom the words were spoken or the person(s) would see, hear, or experience what is stated then that is the way it happened.

It depends on the context ....like when Jesus told certain disciples this:

And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him.

So the above phrase states 'he saith unto them...' He said that to those individual disciples and they were the ones who were supposed to do it and nobody else had anything to do with it. 

But in this context below, Moses is directly talking to the people that were right there at the time, but yet he was not meaning this would happen exactly to those very people even though he used the phrase 'When thou art in tribulation...' 

When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

Maybe you could give me an example of the verse you are looking at...

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

False theories always have holes. You are trying to rearrange what John wrote. That is a guarantee you are mistaken. Furthermore, because you imagine no resurrection before the last day, you have to change what is written.

In order to rearrange something from its proper place, it has to be determined what that proper place was...if these saints are actually in heaven and I am saying they are on earth, then I would be rearranging what John said. 

But if they are on earth and it is claimed they are in heaven then it would also be rearranging what John said.

It says they are in the temple serving God day and night...Does heaven have days and night?

Do you believe the nations of the world will convert at the Second Coming, or do you think God kills everyone?

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Did I not cite the passages in the post? 

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bondservants, the things which must quickly take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.  Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is at hand.

Revelation 1:19
Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

Revelation 22:7-13
And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book. I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.  But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."  And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

 

He told John he was coming quickly because the time was at hand. What he wrote down were things he'd seen, things that existed at the time of the vision, and things that took place after what he'd seen and then-current conditions.

 

 

Now note what's gonna happen because if the response is, "I read that differently," or "I don't know whether I can trust what you post because you read scripture differently than I do," that's a red herring because I am not reading what is stated differently than what is stated!!! What it actually factually objectively observably states is what I quoted. 

Yeah, but Josh, that's not what it means. 

Yeah, it is what it means. God stated what he stated and what he stated is what He meant to state. 

 

Revelation 22:18-21
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;  and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.  He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.  The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

 

Don't change what is stated, at least not unless the text itself gives reason for doing so. Don't let a post-canonical doctrine of eschatology dictate what does and does not get "interpreted." 

Hallelujah! How great it is that we get to discus the written Word of God!

If you wish to believe He came and did whatever, and told us nothing about His mission, fine. He came, did what He came to do, and returned to heaven. But for certain that coming was not and could never be His coming for His Bride, OR His coming for Armageddon. It must, therefore, just be a secret coming.

I find it far easier to believe He has just delayed His coming. But that is Just me.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Right, so everyone who places any resurrection before the last day almost inevitably has to have two resurrections at two different times...which of course violates what Paul said when he said 'We shall ALL be changed at the last trump...' not part of changed before the 7th trumpet and the other part changed at the 7th trump...'

I believe the bible shows us at least four resurrections at different times: Jesus' resurrection, the resurrection of the church, then the resurrection of the Old Testament saints (They are not "in Christ") and finally all those under the "second death" resurrection.

I think, if we follow the text, the trumpet will sound FIRST, then the Dead in Christ rise, then we are caught up and changed.

And this has NOTHING to do with the 7th trumpet - third woe.

Edited March 23, 2022 by iamlamad