Revelation 10

[truth7t7]

11 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I don't know what Jehovah's Witness nor 7th Day Adventism nor Annihilationism stands for or against or means so all that is wasted space putting forth the words of man and not speaking to the words of God.  We can be a part of the solution or a part of the problem.  Time is short and soon there will be almost no truth to be found anywhere.  Men know more about what other men have told them rather than where the Holy Spirit  leads.  

What I have said that isn't written?  Does it offend you that THEIR TORMENT GOES UP IN SMOKE FOREVER AND EVER?  Does it bother you that CONSUMED means there is an end?   WHY get mad at me?  I didn't write it and I am not the one teaching falsely.  

Maybe CONSUMED doesn't mean consumed at all.  IF IT INDEED doesn't mean that then PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME.  If 'the smoke of their torment' isn't what goes on forever and ever then PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME.  I have this huge problem in which I take what is written as a literal happening.  Sometimes what is happening is given to me in terms of symbols to help me UNDERSTAND more completely what is being told me.  Sometimes figures of speech are used to make me STOP and say HEY, what is up here, what am I supposed to be noticing that I would have just read over like it was nothing had it not been put for in a figure of speech.  

Tormented by fire, in the presence of angels and the Lamb, AND THE SMOKE goes forever.  

NOW you tell me what does that mean IF WHAT IS WRITTEN IS NOT WHAT IS MEANT.  

I read 'what is written' and take that to BE GODS TRUTH, no matter no matter who has said WHAT before me. 

I will neither endorse nor reject ANYTHING I read in GODS WORDS because someone before me had a thought on it.  

I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT SATAN HAS TRIED TO POLLUTE GODS WORDS in everyway possible over the past 2000 years.  I think the subjects with the HIGHEST amount of debate ARE SPECIFICALLY because Satan doesn't want those TRUTHs to be known.  

So LABEL away if you must, but ask yourself who and what does it serve.  I will gladly go word for word with GODS words to get to the truth but will not discuss how 'men' down through the years have divided and labeled everything. That certainly isn't at Gods hands.  

ANY and EVERY single teaching that in anyway suggests that the Bible is not to be studied more intensely than ever and it isn't more important that at any other time in the past, GOES AGAINST GODS TRUTH.   A mill, pre trib, OSAS, gentile church, OT is for Jews, EVERY single one of them has been given a label to which the LABEL IS DISCUSSED rather than Gods Words. 

THE FAMINE IN THE END TIMES IS FOR ?  How do you think that is accomplished?  WE ARE LIVING IT.

Amos 8:7 The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.

Amos 8:8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.

Amos 8:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Amos 8:10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD

Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

HERE WE ARE.  I put forth EXACTLY what is written and what do I receive?  

 

I'm not mad at you as you falsely claim, the doctrine of Annihilationism is unscriptural

The wicked will suffer conscious eternal torment, they wont disappear into non-existentence as you claim

Its states tormented with fire and brimstone, its states for ever and ever, how long is that?

Revelation 14:9-11KJV

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Edited January 22, 2022 by truth7t7

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Once they die they don't exist?

They exist 'as smoke' from what I read. 

YOU SAY that makes me something wrong so tell me WHAT IS RIGHT to you? 
What do you see their existence as being?  Where do I read about it?  



I have been told it is to be in the "lake of fire" but AGAIN, the LAKE OF FIRE WAS ON "THE OLD EARTH" (speaking of this one from the new ones perspective) AND IT PASSED AWAY AND nothing about it is remembered SO WHERE ARE THEY? 

[truth7t7]

7 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

They exist 'as smoke' from what I read. 

YOU SAY that makes me something wrong so tell me WHAT IS RIGHT to you? 
What do you see their existence as being?  Where do I read about it?  



I have been told it is to be in the "lake of fire" but AGAIN, the LAKE OF FIRE WAS ON "THE OLD EARTH" (speaking of this one from the new ones perspective) AND IT PASSED AWAY AND nothing about it is remembered SO WHERE ARE THEY? 

The wicked will suffer conscious eternal torment, they wont disappear into non-existentence/smoke as you claim

Its states tormented with fire and brimstone, its states for ever and ever, how long is that?

Revelation 14:9-11KJV

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Edited January 22, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

Just now, Josheb said:

Was NOT making any such suggestion. It was a simple comparison to illustrate the fallacious nature of any rationale that says, "X is wrong because cultists believe it." JWs believe Jesus is just a man. The belief that Jesus is just a man is nt wrong because JWs believe it. That belief is wrong because it does not reconcile with the whole of scripture. To say "X is wrong because cultists believe it," is not just guilt by association, it is a false-cause fallacy. 

Annihilation is not good or bad or right or wrong because JWs believe it. Annihilation is not good or bad or write or wrong because Christians going back as far as the ECFs have held to that point of view. The veracity of that position is decided by the whole word of God. 

And I all have suggested is a little fairness be applied. You can be fair with the fellow posters and not compare them to JWs and SDAs, can't you?

No, that is simply not true. Annihilation has been part of Christian thought from the beginning, and it goes back further to have roots in Judaic thought, and I can prove it. I can cite and quote many Christians - many mainstream AND orthodox Christians who subscribed to the position of annihilation. I can also list a bunch of modern Christian teachers who lie about our shared history, saying annihilation has not been part of our history. 

But that is immaterial to my point. 

My point was simply to encourage (not admonish) a little fairness with your fellow posters. Implicitly dismissing someone's posts because of cultists' views is not fair. If the sister is SDA or JW then by all means have at it (I will join you ) but guilt by association and false causes are fallacious and unfair. 

Irrelevant. 

I am only encouraging fairness. NOTHING in that post is intended to hijack the discussion to discuss, debate, or argue annihilation. The topic of this op is Rev. 10, Christ as King, and his servants - not those tormented or annihilated. 

 

Show a little fairness. 

 

 

"

Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling, insulting, harassing, threatening or in any way invading the privacy of another poster. We also strongly discourage giving out personal information such as email addresses, physical addresses and phone numbers on the public boards. Any information given out in private is at your own discretion and risk

. (Eph. 4: 29)

 

 

 

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned

. (Lev. 19:18)"

 

 

Doesn't implicit comparison to cultists qualify? Be fair. 

 

Matthew 7:12
"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you..."

 

Be fair. 

 

 

(moving on now)
 

I Strongly Disagree

Annihilationism is a false doctrine, and I dont care who you want to attach to it

The wicked will suffer eternal conscious torment, it's a scriptural fact

Its states tormented with fire and brimstone, its states for ever and ever, it states no rest day or night, simple, clear, and easy to understand

Revelation 14:9-11KJV

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

[DeighAnn]

2 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Its states tormented with fire and brimstone, its states for ever and ever, how long is that?

Ok.  Do I understand you correctly?  This is THE TRUTH you believe

If I didn't love God and didn't believe in Jesus and choose instead to live my life however I wanted, which ULTIMATELY lead to me being DECEIVED by the Supernatural SIGNS AND WONDERS being done by Satan AFTER he had healed the THE DEADLY WOULD and set up the image the whole world was worshipping giving me the mark of the beast just like everyone else

Upon being sentenced to death FOR THAT, I WOULD from that moment on, CONTINUE ON LIVING but only for the purpose of being burned and TORMENTED IN THE LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH SULFER FOR EVER AND EVER AND EVER, correct? 

What if, I would have been a near perfect Christian by loving my neighbor, taking care of the poor, never letting anger take hold being the solid foundation for many orphans  IF ONLY I would have believed in God, but just never came to faith.  

It a little bit like being guilty UNDER THE LAW isn't it?

Just like the guy who goes to his neighbors house and seduces the wife as he steals the cow on the way home to beat the wife and still drunk doesn't know he ran over the dog on the way in.

NOW what EFFECT do you think it is going to have on the HOLY ANGELS and the LAMB to be in the presence of that forever and ever and ever?  It wouldn't seem much different that Lot's soul I wouldn't think.  

I am going to PRAISE YE THE LORD that I don't believe that in any way shape or form.  It goes against everything I know about God.  Righteousness. JUST.  Merciful. I AM NOT even the best person around AND I CAN SEE HOW UNJUST that is, in every way shape and form.  In reality it breaks my heart that you can, my heart breaks for GOD.  

I AM POSITIVE my loving God has nothing to do with any sort of FEAR or eternal torturous pain and sorrow for having been created TO FAIL. GOD actually CREATED SOULS FOR eternal pain and torture??  SERIOUSLY, I do not see the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY like that at all. 
 
And what about those vessels FIT FOR DESTRUCTION?   Something completely out of their hands created by God for His purposes and what comes of that?  Skin melting forever off the body.  I can't even think about it any more.  I believe I completely under WHAT you believe though we will have to end it with I will never understand HOW you could.  

Thank you for the responses 

 

[truth7t7]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

Off topic is nothing more than a diversion from a direct answer

It appears you also deny a place of conscious torment for the wicked, hell/lake of fire, correct me if I'm wrong? 

Edited January 23, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

Deleted

Edited January 23, 2022 by truth7t7

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Sorry,   '...you were the SEAL OF PERFECTION full of wisdom and perfect in beauty'  '...perfect you were in your ways from the day you were created...'

he was created in full perfection  -  made the full pattern

the prince of this world

the valley of the shadow of death

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Okay, thank you for the clarification. HOWEVER, you're still taking a passage of Scripture that was addressed to one individual and applying it to another individual.

I get it. I remember some preachers claiming that Satan was indwelling the king of Tyre; so, God was addressing him THROUGH the king of Tyre, but we're not told that in Scripture! Such a belief ASSUMES a lot of things that aren't necessarily so.

I believe the book of Revelation, written down by Yochanan ("John"), but delivered by Yeshua` to Yochanan. He said,

Revelation 12:7-12 (KJV)

7 And there was war in heaven (in the sky): Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven (in the sky). 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven (in the sky),

"Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (Messiah): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens (you skies), and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time!"

 

That is who he is. He is the original snake ("that old serpent") called the Devil (the "Slanderer") and haSatan ("the Enemy"), who fools the whole world-system of politics (Greek: kosmos), and here in Revelation, he is called "the great red dragon" (Greek: drakoon = "lizard; huge serpent"). As I've said, I find it interesting how the Chinese greatly revere the dragon, almost to the point of worshipping it. Their red dragon, which is like a giant worm with short legs that flies, is supposed to be a benevolent creature. I would not be too surprised to learn that the original snake has been hiding out there for thousands of years. While some would suggest that the original snake was possessed by Satan, I believe it's the other way around, as Revelation suggests - it was the original snake who was called the "Devil" and "Satan!"

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I get it from the OT.

Exodus 25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

Exodus 25:17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.

Exodus 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Exodus 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

Exodus 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

Exodus 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

Exodus 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Do you see any duel references in the words of God anywhere?
 

Do you even know what a k'ruwv ("cherub") is? Simply compare Ezekiel 1 to Ezekiel 10:

Ezekiel 1:4-14 (KJV)

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. 5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. 6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. 12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. 13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

Ezekiel 10:1-14 (KJV)

1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne. 2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said,

"Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city."

And he went in in my sight.

3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court. 4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory. 5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying,

"Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims";

then he went in, and stood beside the wheels. 7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out. 8 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.

9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone. 10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel. 11 When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went. 12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes (Hebrew: `eeynayim = "eyes" [dual], an `eiyn looks like "ע") round about, even the wheels that they four had. 13 As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O wheel. 14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

So, chapter 10 gives us ...

"the first face was the face of a cherub,
and the second face was the face of a man,
and the third the face of a lion,
and the fourth the face of an eagle."

And, chapter 1 gives us ...

"they four had the face of a man, ...
and the face of a lion, on the right side:
and they four had the face of an ox on the left side;
they four also had the face of an eagle."

Thus, "man" = "man,"
"lion" = "lion,"
"eagle" = "eagle," and 
"cherub" = "ox!"

And, a string of `ayin's looks like this: "עעעעעע..." These could be scales or feathers, and with wings, I'd favor feathers overlapping.

So, they are creatures that look like oxen that stand upright like a man that have four faces and four wings with feet that are cushioned like calves' feet. They have hands under their wings apparently attached to their wings, and they fly with two wings each and cover their bodies with two wings each.

Their faces from the top are arranged as ...

....... cherub

eagle ...O.... man

.......... lion 

They were just seen at two different angles between the two Scripture passages.

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for IF YE BELIEVE NOT THAT I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.

This word "world" in verse 23 is the Greek word "kosmos" referring to being "out of this world-sytem of government or politics." He is NOT talking about being "out of the earth!"

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

AS TO MY PUNCTUATION AND SPEECH AND BELIEFS, maybe you should take a lesson from here

1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

1 Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of MAN'S WISDOM  but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power

1 Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, NOT IN THE WORDS WHICH MAN'S WISDOM TEACHETH BUT

THE HOLY SPIRIT TEACHETH COMPARING SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL
 

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I meant no offense in mentioning the need for punctuation; communication is BASED upon understanding not only the words, but how those words are said! Punctuation gives us the foundation of the sentences. They dictate which words should be taken as the subject, which are the verbs of that sentence, and what modifiers are used to describe each. They just make for clearer understanding, that's all.

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

All them Phars and Sadds knew the meanings of all the words too.  Still they missed GOD walking among them.  THANK GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADS TO UNDERSTANDING AND TRUTHS THAT THE WORDS THEMSELVES are not able to. 

In Eden the garden of God you were every stone precious your covering the sardius topaz and diamond Beryl onyx and jasper Sapphire turquoise and emerald and with gold the workmanship of your timbrels and pipes for you on the day you were created was prepared.  

So this king being in EDEN, would be Adam, Eve or Satan, correct?  So who was it and how old were they when they died?   

Not necessarily. The Garden of `Eeden still existed upon the face of the earth right up to the Flood. Indeed, the trees and their fruits and seeds survived the Flood, just as did the grasses and herbs! One of the children of Noach could have discovered a place that was very nearly like the Garden, probably without the Tree of Life, and the knowledge of that discovery may have been preserved down to the time of this king of Tyre.

Indeed, the trees of Lebanon were favored as valuable and became a necessary part of the building of the Temple. Why do you suppose that is? Tyre is on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea in Phoenicia, which is now called "Lebanon."

By the way, do you know the connection with this "covering" and the Feast of Tabernacles?

[Retrobyter]

37 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Off topic is nothing more than a diversion from a direct answer

It appears you also deny a place of conscious torment for the wicked, hell/lake of fire, correct me if I'm wrong? 

Shalom, truth7t7 and @Josheb.

LOL! We've all been off-topic for several pages now!

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

Off topic is nothing more than a diversion from a direct answer

It appears you also deny a place of conscious torment for the wicked, hell/lake of fire, correct me if I'm wrong? 

Off topic is nothing more than a diversion from a direct answer, as you fully engaged, now your running

It appears you also deny a place of conscious torment for the wicked, hell/lake of fire, correct me if I'm wrong?