Revelation 10

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, tatwo said:

About your first statement...it's likely to be less chronologically focused and more that He was the first of His kind...the "new creation."

I've heard that said about the term "first resurrection" that its more of a type of resurrection.  However, chronology is implicit in the use of the term "first fruits".  

3 hours ago, tatwo said:

As for your latter question...well I must say, I never thought of it in those terms. The answer should be interesting.

My guess is that they are the saints that predated Abraham, saints before the nations were created at Babel and God chose His.  That would include Abel, Enoch, Noah, and others that we've never heard of during the course of the first two thousand years or so.  But its just that, a guess.

[Ancient]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Ancient.

Just to touch base with you and thank you for your first post in this thread, I'd just like to mention that I believe YHWH is wrongly pronounced "Yahweh" and should rather be pronounced as at the end of many names, like "YirmeYahuw," "MattitYahuw," Yesha`Yahuw," etc. The vav (or waw) is usually given the status of a vowel marker for the "ow" or "uw" sound, even though it's technically a consonant. Thus, I write (on occasion), "YaHuWH," although I most often just write "YHWH," as a transliteration of HaShem, and usually italicized as a foreign word (to English).

I've said it before; I just can't understand how FORGETTING how His Name is pronounced is "honoring the Name!" David knew it and wrote it frequently in His psalms and prophecies, as did many of the other prophets of Elohiym.

Regardless, I believe all else you stated is correct. Thank you.

Hello thankyou for your positive reply. However I am not a sacred namer and do not get into particular pronunciations of YHWH. Unless someone has a voice recording from 2,000 + years ago this matter will never be resolved until the return of our Messiah.It  is not a salvation issue.

Shalom

[Retrobyter]

27 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I don't disagree that Christ is the firstfruits.  He was raised first.  I also don't think there's enough information to conclude one way or the other that He's the only one so far raised immortal.  There's Matthew 27:52-53 which doesn't explicitly say if the raised saints were mortal or immortal, and there's also Ephesians 4:8 where He led captive the captives.  I'm not going to be dogmatic about it but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you presume.  Why do we never hear of the acts of the raised saints?

Shalom, Last Daze.

No, Ephesians 4:8 is OFTEN misunderstood by many because they don't know that it is a QUOTE from the OT! It comes from Psalm 68:18 and here it is in its context:

Psalm 68:1-19 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm or Song of David.}

Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.
4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.
5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.
6 God setteth the solitary in families: he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.
7 O God, when thou wentest forth before thy people, when thou didst march through the wilderness; Selah:
8 The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.
10 Thy congregation hath dwelt therein: thou, O God, hast prepared of thy goodness for the poor.
11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.
12 Kings of armies did flee apace: and she that tarried at home divided the spoil.
13 Though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold.
14 When the Almighty scattered kings in it, it was white as snow in Salmon.
15 The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan; an high hill as the hill of Bashan.
16 Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill which God desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.
17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

Thus, the "captivity" he led captive were the children of Israel during the exodus from Egypt! They were HIS captives into the wilderness all the way to Mount Sinai, where He made the covenant with them and gave them His mitsvowt - His commandments or rules, and His Torah - His Instruction.

Now, look at it in the context of Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:1-24 (KJV)

1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord (Yeshua`, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord (Yeshua`), one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ (the Messiah's gift).

8 Wherefore he saith,

"When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (That is, the earth - the Land - IS the lower parts.) 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens (skies), that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (These ARE the "gifts!") 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of THE BLINDNESS OF THEIR HEART: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ (the Messiah); 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I don't disagree that Christ is the firstfruits.  He was raised first.  I also don't think there's enough information to conclude one way or the other that He's the only one so far raised immortal.  There's Matthew 27:52-53 which doesn't explicitly say if the raised saints were mortal or immortal, and there's also Ephesians 4:8 where He led captive the captives.  I'm not going to be dogmatic about it but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you presume.  Why do we never hear of the acts of the raised saints?

Shalom, Last Daze.

Who really knows, but God? But, I believe that the religious crowd just couldn't handle these raised saints any more than they could Elezar ("Lazarus"). They probably made as short a work of them as they could get away with without drawing too much attention to themselves. After all, there were mercenary-assassins in EVERY age.

However, the problem of Matthew 27:52-53 is WHERE it was put, right after the associated results of Yeshua`s death, and before His burial. Consider the surroundings of these two verses:

Matthew 27:45-51 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"

that is to say,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!"

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him."

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost (Greek: to pneuma = "the breath"). 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain (was ripped in two) from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent (shattered; ripped); 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God!"

55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: 58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. 59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. 61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

So, if these verses had nothing to do with this timing, then why are they mentioned in this chapter? The truth is that verse 52 happened right after His death, but verse 53 is merely foreshadowed here and actually happened after His Resurrection.

[truth7t7]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Can we amend that to say Jesus will come a final time on the last day?

Can we also agree that the last days (plural) began in the first century whereas the last day (singular) is in our future? Can we agree the final coming is not a lot of comings and goings and raptures and moving the kingdom(s) around here and there but a single event when all will be judged?

 

Because the language of "The Second Coming" has become a source of abuse in Christianity. It no longer means the same thing to all Christians and the term itself does not occur in scripture. It is an invention of Christians that has lost its meaning simply because it now has too many meanings to be of use. 

Can we agree (the day and hour no man knows) is the second coming of Jesus Christ?

Edited January 18, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

15 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Can we agree to answer questions in the order they were asked?

 

Look at your question. Because you've put a phrase in parentheses you've written a nonsensical question. "Can we agree is the second coming of Jesus Christ? " And I am being asked this question without you answering the ones I first asked? I will happily address the "day and the hour no man knows" of Matthew 24 when my questions have been answered (even though I have already answered it just three posts above).

 

Jesus comes on the last day. It is his last coming. Yes? Lazarus was resuscitated. He was not resurrected. According to 1 Cor. 15:35-54 we will be raised in spiritual bodies. They won't be bodies of flesh and blood like Lazarus' but spiritual bodies of flesh and bone like Jesus' resurrected (not merely resuscitated) body. 

Semantics in my opinion, just as "Trinity" or "Rapture" aren't in the bible but we know well what they mean

Yes Jesus Christ returns on the (Last Day) there wont be any following, Lazarus was (Raised from the dead) in a mortal body not resuscitated, I fully agree with the glorified body received as described

Now, what is the day and hour no man knows?

John 12:1KJV

Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by truth7t7

[JoeCanada]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

Paul said the ends of the ages came upon them in the first century. He did not just say the last days had arrived; he said the ends too had arrived

Josheb,

Mat 12:32

“And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

 Mar 10:30

"but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life."

 Luk 18:30

"who will not receive many times as much at this time, and in the age to come, eternal life.”

It is very obvious from the scriptures above that the apostles knew of the age they were in. And in 1 Cor 10:11 says "they were written for our instruction upon whom the ends of the ages have come" Paul was saying that this age that he was in was at the end of the age.... and there was yet to come a future "age to come, where eternal life would be"

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

Jesus had used that phrase earlier that very day when he spoke to the Pharisees and told them the blood of the prophets and saints was on their hands.

Jesus said that "upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth"

That could have been the time when Jerusalem was overthrown and burned in 70 AD. That could have been what Jesus meant when He said " all these things will come upon this generation"

As opposed to Matt 24:34...." Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"

The things Jesus referred to are those from Matt 24:  The generation that sees all "these things happening". 

Those things are still future.

More later....

[WilliamL]

On 1/12/2022 at 5:48 PM, truth7t7 said:

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

This passage teaches no such thing:

On 1/12/2022 at 5:48 PM, truth7t7 said:

23 But every man in his own order: [1] Christ the firstfruits; [2] afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 [3] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[1]  took place in the first century; [2] takes place in the 21st century; [3] takes place after the Millennium. "All rule" will have not been put down until then, as Rev. 20 makes explicit.

[WilliamL]

On 1/16/2022 at 9:00 AM, Last Daze said:

I don't disagree that Christ is the firstfruits.  He was raised first.  I also don't think there's enough information to conclude one way or the other that He's the only one so far raised immortal.  ... there's also Ephesians 4:8 where He led captive the captives.  I'm not going to be dogmatic about it but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you presume.  Why do we never hear of the acts of the raised saints?

Actually, we do: in Rev. 4-5ff., when we see the elders before the throne of God in heaven:

Rev. 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns [stephanos crowns, that is, victor's crowns/wreaths given to Christian overcomers] of gold on their heads. ... 5:7 ...saying, "You...have redeemed us..."

When were they redeemed by Christ, and thus resurrected from the dead to sit down upon thrones in heaven?

1 Peter 4:6 ...the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

This fulfilled Jesus' prophecy in John 5:

John 5:25 “Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Once these men were redeemed and raised from the dead because they believed the Gospel, they were no longer liable for death; just as Jesus was no longer liable for death. (Those of the dead who would/could not hear the Gospel remained in the grave.) They could no more see corruption than could Jesus.

One more point: Matt. 27:52 is poorly translated in most versions, saying "many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised." The latter verb root is egeiro, which more accurately here means "awakened/aroused." That is, they were awakened at the death of Christ, but did not arise until after Jesus arose, so that He was truly "the firstborn of the dead." But OT saints were also delivered from the dead, probably on Nisan 21, the archetypal day of deliverance, when the Israelites crossed through the Red Sea during the Exodus. Jesus arose on Nisan 18, the archetypal day of the Firstfruits wave offering.

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Being raised in the mortal body is resuscitation. It is not resurrection. Lazarus died again. If he had a salvific relationship with Jesus then he was/will also be resurrected, or raised immortally and incorruptibly in a spiritual body.

Then Lazarus was not resurrected. He was resuscitated. His mortal body was revived so that he could live a little while longer, but he eventually died (again). When Jesus summoned him out of the tomb Lazarus was not immortal and incorruptible. 

Jesus was. 

Jesus was resurrected, not merely resuscitated or revived. 

Scripture clearly states "Raised From The Dead" will you continue to argue?

John 12:1KJV

Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

Edited January 18, 2022 by truth7t7