Our Final Conversion

[Hopefully]

16 minutes ago, Starise said:

The idea of loss of memory or the memory of the old ways will be long gone.

The reason I think either our memory is wiped, or we have the full mind of Christ if we do remember is because I am thinking about knowing people are in hell being tormented for eternity.

In my human mind I don’t understand how I could be happy and have no pain or tears knowing this, but with the mind of Christ then I’d be able to bear it without pain because of a new understanding.

Even if I’m in heaven; with my current mind, I’m in a lot of pain because others are not there. When we love others as ourselves we don’t just think about ourselves. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Hopefully

[Starise]

8 minutes ago, Hopefully said:

The reason I think either our memory is wiped, or we have the full mind of Christ if we do remember is because I am thinking about knowing people are in hell being tormented for eternity.

In my human mind I don’t understand how I could be happy and have no pain or tears knowing this, but with the mind of Christ then I’d be able to bear it without pain because of a new understanding.

Even if I’m in heaven; with my current mind, I’m in a lot of pain because others are not there. When we love others as ourselves we don’t just think about ourselves. 

And I get that totally. I would be the same way.

Although hell as the place designed originally for the devil and his angels is multi purposed for men , I believe the outcomes are different and this changes my views on those who enter hell.

[Hopefully]

Just now, Starise said:

, I believe the outcomes are different and this changes my views on those who enter hell.

I would be interested in hearing more about this if you are willing.

[Starise]

I am willing. I appreciate you wanting to delve into this more.

I will start another thread on hell and eternal punishment.

God Bless

-Tim

 

[debrakay]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

With God all things are possible? 

There is no question mark behind that statement. 

As mere humans we are unable to understand with our finite minds how the Father will make the new heaven and earth perfect.  We will have everything we need for this new life and there should be no questioning how that will come about.  It just will because I AM is the Alpha, the Omega, The Beginning, The End.  That is why he is God and we are not.  

II Corinthians 5:7 (NKJV)
For we walk by faith, not by sight.

I believe that as our spirit-self grows closer and closer to the Lord and as our physical-self gets closer to the grave He allows our minds to see more and more of the mystery of eternal life.  

Isaiah 64:4 (NKJV) - 'For since the beginning of the world Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear, Nor has the eye seen any God besides You, Who acts for the one who waits for Him.'

Isaiah 65:17 (NKJV) '“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.'

I Corinthians 9-13 (NKJV) - 9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

[missmuffet]

On 1/18/2022 at 12:24 PM, Starise said:

 We often read of our spiritual transformation in scripture. I would post references and maybe I will later.

I'm sure most of you are aware of what I'm referring to. The old man passes away and the Lord replaces it with the new man. 

The word 'flesh' is often used to describe that part of us that is unacceptable to the Lord. That part of us that wants to do things that are not spiritual. That part we all live with while on this earth. The part of us that works against and contrary to the spirit.

Renewal of the old man is happening as the Lord works in each of us believers daily.

We are being gradually moved toward a more spirit centric life by the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We should see a difference between a new Christian and an older more mature Christian. Not to seem contradictory, but sometimes even older Christians drop the ball to the goal which is our standard, Jesus Christ.

We also read of a sudden change that takes place when we go to be with the Lord. This change would strip the physical body away immediately and replace it with a new better improved body.

So we have both a gradual change and a sudden change. The gradual while on this earth and the sudden at resurrection.

My question is, can we still sin in heaven? If Adam and Eve sinned while they had spiritual bodies that did not decay, doesn't this point to a similar potential for all of us in the future? Even when we lack these old fleshly bodies?

 Lucifer sinned while he was one of God's top creations, so if we carry that line of thinking into our future state it could be inferred we also have the potential, and how easy it was for Eve to take that one bite. Will all desire to sin be taken away? If so this seems to be unprecedented when looking at prior references.

I really HOPE I have zero desire to ever think or do anything wrong. This is eternity we are talking about. It isn't as if we only need to get through 6 months or a year. This is eternity.

Do you think God takes away the ability to sin at that point? If so, why or how? What scriptural evidence can we find for it? Thanks.

-Tim

 

Just like the angels we will have glorified bodies in heaven and will not be able to sin. But in order to get to heaven we need to be born again. 

The Bible describes heaven or the eternal state in great detail in Revelation chapters 21–22. Nowhere in those chapters is the possibility of sin mentioned. In fact, we have the promise that, in the eternal state, we will never experience death, sorrow, crying, or pain (Revelation 21:4)—the absence of those things is proof positive that sin is also absent, since those things are the product of sin (see Romans 6:23).
The sinful will not be in heaven but in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). Nothing impure will ever enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). Outside of heaven are those who sin (Revelation 22:15). An Old Testament prophecy also assures us that the Kingdom of God will exclude sinfulness:
“A highway will be there;
it will be called the Way of Holiness;
it will be for those who walk on that Way.
The unclean will not journey on it;
wicked fools will not go about on it. . . .
But only the redeemed will walk there” (Isaiah 35:8–9).
So, the answer is, no, it will not be possible for us to sin in heaven.

God wills our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3); that is, He wills to make us holy and free of sin. Our sanctification has three phases: positional sanctification, which saves us from the penalty of sin at the moment of faith in Christ; progressive sanctification, which saves us from the power of sin as we grow in Christ; and complete sanctification, which saves us from the presence of sin as we enter the presence of Christ. “When Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). In other words, the process by which God sanctifies us involves justification, maturation, and glorification.

The glorification that God promises His children (Romans 8:30) necessarily includes sinlessness, because sinful beings cannot be glorious. Heaven, the place of God’s glory, is sinless. Paul prays in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely” (ESV), and he links the glorious appearing of Christ to our personal glorification: “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4). This glorified state will be our ultimate separation from sin, a total sanctification in every regard. It will not be possible for us to sin in heaven.

James 1:14 provides another assurance that we will not sin in heaven: “Each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.” In this sinful world, we face temptation daily, and James identifies two forces that prompt us to sin: our own evil desire (our sin nature) and enticement (the devil’s schemes). Neither of those forces will be in heaven. Our sin nature will have been eradicated in our glorification, and the tempter will have been consigned to the lake of fire where he can do us no harm (Revelation 20:10).

The Bible’s teaching is that heaven or the eternal state is completely holy. There will be no possibility of sin, we will be clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8), and we will be eternally confirmed in our state of bliss. The work that God promised to complete in us will have been finished (Philippians 1:6). Our deliverance will be complete, as the elect are redeemed—body, soul, and mind—to the glory of the Lamb (Revelation 5:6–10).

https://www.gotquestions.org/heaven-sin.html

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by missmuffet

[enoob57]

God's Word is clear on this 

Isaiah 65:17 (KJV)

[17] For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV)

[8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV)

[21:1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

The major reason for this non-remembrance is found in the quality of God's Love:

1 Corinthians 13:5 (NASB)

[5] does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,

When Jesus was on the Cross, He suffered loss:
physically
Isaiah 52:14 (NASB)

[14] Just as many were astonished at you, My people,

So His appearance was marred more than any man

And His form more than the sons of men.

 

mentally,
Matthew 26:39 (KJV)

[39] And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

 

emotionally 
John 19:26 (KJV)

[26] When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

Yet Jesus experiencing total earthly Being loss still maintained love for them 'ALL'
Luke 23:34 (KJV)

[34] Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

It here that the petition went out to all before the cross  'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do' knowing full well it would cause His Father to turn His Face from His Son thus giving the absolute all of Himself... this is the love of God 
' does not take into account a wrong suffered,'  and why it all will be completely forgotten in the New Heaven and New Earth... sin has never, nor now, nor in the ever of the eternal state had place with God and it will be thoroughly and completely ceased from ever existing...

[Starise]

Text- Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

I think this could be taken in at least two different ways. It is possible the Lord does completely wipe our memories.

The second option is the way in which humans deal with trauma. They often repress it for survival or for mental health.

In the first a person would say they can't remember. In the second they would say they don't recall.

 

 

[enoob57]

12 hours ago, Starise said:

Text- Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

I think this could be taken in at least two different ways. It is possible the Lord does completely wipe our memories.

The second option is the way in which humans deal with trauma. They often repress it for survival or for mental health.

In the first a person would say they can't remember. In the second they would say they don't recall.

 

 

 

the key is in the Revelation passage
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
this could not be a truth statement if any old was present or attainable...

[enoob57]

38 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Doesn't come to mind.  
Vanish away. 
Made new. 

Can't be all three at once. So, which is it? 

 

Just asking

Doesn't come INTO mind - means not retrievable to memory

Vanish away- becomes non-existant

ALL THINGS Made new- The old no longer exists for 'all things'
                                           are (created/made) new....

we are not directed as to time for it is no longer in existence as we know it but seems to be a one event happenstance

Revelation 21:4 (KJV)

[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

These are speaking to the same event- the begin of new heaven and earth...