Hell

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, debrakay said:

Sorry to be confusing.  I believe it is important during discussion to stick with biblical scripture and not venture off to "other writings" to determine the objective of seeking truth.  We either all believe the Bible is the inspired word of God or not.  Venturing off the path of biblical scripture leads to many unhealthy conversations and become stumbling blocks to others.  One cannot use the apocryphal books when "quoting scripture" otherwise every non-Christian religion could be involved in the discussion of truth. 

Again, sorry if I was off topic.  I believe in the discussion of "Hell" we need to keep only with what the Holy Bible says.  

Thank you for clearing that up sister.

[Alive]

9 minutes ago, Jayne said:

5.  Selfish behavior to an enemy.  [The polar opposite of what Jesus said.]

"Give not to the un­godly: hold back thy bread, and give it not to him."  Ecclesiasticus 12:6

Jesus said to turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and the Old Testament says in Proverbs 25 to feed and take care of your enemy and God will reward you.  Also, there's the good Samaritan who took care of his enemy......

 

We have to be careful with this kind of thinking and language and understand the context of what Jesus was saying here and to whom He was speaking.

I say this because folks will when hearing this bring up many points that seem to conflict.

God has destroyed many enemies and had the Jews by His hand do the same and in the end He will destroy all of His enemies.

Jesus was addressing the hypocrisy of the Jewish leadership. Much of what Jesus said was addressing them in that context.

God is a God that loves, is merciful and gracious--but He is just as much God when He hands out justice. We see this most pointedly in the 'Cross of Christ'.

[Hands On]

Whatever the method of punishment or condemnation the facts as I see them is not to "push one's luck" with God.Sure God is a God of love but there is also this attribute of "  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;"(ASV.Rom.1:18).

I would suggest  staying well clear, through the sacrifice of Christ's blood and God's grace of being considered part of  "ungodliness and unrighteousness of men".If it takes a word or concept like "Hell" in any language to bring us to our "senses" Lk 15:17, then praise the Lord we might well not have to concern ourselves with what "Hell" is really all about. 

 

[Jayne]

14 minutes ago, Alive said:

We have to be careful with this kind of thinking and language and understand the context of what Jesus was saying here and to whom He was speaking.

I say this because folks will when hearing this bring up many points that seem to conflict.

God has destroyed many enemies and had the Jews by His hand do the same and in the end He will destroy all of His enemies.

Jesus was addressing the hypocrisy of the Jewish leadership. Much of what Jesus said was addressing them in that context.

God is a God that loves, is merciful and gracious--but He is just as much God when He hands out justice. We see this most pointedly in the 'Cross of Christ'.

I absolutely and totally give up!!

I won't be back to Worthy Forums.

God bless you all.  Nothing I say makes a difference in these discussions.  

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Jayne said:

I absolutely and totally give up!!

I won't be back to Worthy Forums.

God bless you all.  Nothing I say makes a difference in these discussions.  

Really not a way to look at it.  Are you saying if a person does not agree with you that you will leave? There are a lot of disagreements on Worthy. It is our place to guide them to the truth. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by missmuffet

[Jedi4Yahweh]

2 hours ago, Jayne said:

1.  The teaching, by angels to man, of using seemingly magical arts to rid a person of demons.

"Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee. For these are necessary for useful medicines. . . . Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? And the angel, answer­ing, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them." Tobias 6:5-8

I was aware of this passage.  I find it odd that some consider this magical arts when we read stories in our bible about how Moses turned a staff into a snake, or struck a rock to make water come from it. Or how Elisha told a man to dip himself seven time in dirty river to cleans himself from lepersy OR how he laid himself on top of a dead man to raise back to life Or how Paul used pieces of clothing to heal the sick Or Jesus used spit in the eyes of blind man to make him see OR how Jesus turned water into wine Or how Jesus told Peter to catch fish and to find money inside to pay taxes.  Just because something seems odd, strange, or hard to believe does not mean its "magical arts" and not from God.

 

2 hours ago, Jayne said:

"Prayer is good with fasting and alms : more than to lay up treas­ures of gold: for alms delivereth from death: and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting." Tobias 12:8-9

I do not see how that contradicts scriptures.  Peter also said, 

1Pe 4:7-9 NLT - The end of the world is coming soon. Therefore, be earnest and disciplined in your prayers. Most important of all, continue to show deep love for each other, for love covers a multitude of sins. Cheerfully share your home with those who need a meal or a place to stay.

Peter said showing love to others such as sharing your home and food with others covers a multitude sins.

2 hours ago, Jayne said:

"And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resur­rection, (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godli­ness had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."  2 Maccabees 12:43-46

As I said earlier the Book of Maccabees was not considered a prophetic writing or scripture but more of historical book of Jewish revolt against Rome oppression

 

2 hours ago, Jayne said:

"But the souls of the just are in the hand of God : and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die : and their departure was taken for misery. And their going away from us, for utter destruction : but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality."   Wisdom 3:1-4

This is not referring to Purgatory or suffering in purgatory.  This is speaking about just/righteous people who suffered anguish in life in hopes for immortality in the life to come.  This is reading things into that are not there.

Act 14:22 NLT - where they strengthened the believers. They encouraged them to continue in the faith, reminding them that we must suffer many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God.

2 hours ago, Jayne said:

"Give not to the un­godly: hold back thy bread, and give it not to him."  Ecclesiasticus 12:6

Jesus said to turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and the Old Testament says in Proverbs 25 to feed and take care of your enemy and God will reward you.  Also, there's the good Samaritan who took care of his enemy......

I could see how this may not line up with what Jesus said,  but if you read that chapter  in context it fully explains that our alms giving and charity should focus not on the wicked but on our suffering brothers and sisters. 

Was Paul not following the Jesus commandment when he said:

2Th 3:10-11 KJV - For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

2 hours ago, Jayne said:

6.  Sin is all laid on Eve alone and a wife's sin is worse than the husbands 

"Sin began with a woman, and we must all die because of her."  Sirah 25:24

"From garments cometh moths and from women wickedness.  Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which brings shame and reproach." Sirah 42:13-14

Sounds similar to what Paul said:

1Ti 2:9-15 KJV - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

2 hours ago, Jayne said:

7.  Our souls pre-existed our fleshly bodies.

"As a child I was naturally gifted, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body."  Wisdom 8:19-20

Again similar to what Jerimiah said that God knew him BEFORE he was in the womb.

Jer 1:5 NKJV - "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

2 hours ago, Jayne said:

9.  There were no prophets during the writings of the Apocrypha - stated by Maccabees, itself.

“So they tore down the altar, and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.” 1 Maccabees 4:45b-46.

“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.” 1 Maccabees 9:27.

“And the Jews and their priests decided that Simon should be their leader and high priest for ever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise…” 1 Maccabees 14:41.

Like I said previously the Apocrypha was written before Maccabees and spans all the way back to Jeremiah before the destruction of the first temple. Most of all the biblical prophets came after Jeremiah.   

Was not John the Baptist a Prophet who came before Yahshua/Jesus???

Mat 21:26 NKJV - "But if we say, 'From men,' we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet."

Luk 7:28 NKJV - "For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Luk 16:16 NKJV - "The law and the prophets [were] until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Which? that the LXX didn't include those writings or that Jesus and the disciples didn't read them or were aware of them?

That they are Scripture!

[Alive]

12 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

That they are Scripture!

Thank you.

[Alive]

Folks…let’s get this back on track per the OP.

For therecord, this forum and myself hold the position that the canon currently the inluded set of books aka the bible…is exactly what the Lord wants and it is to be trusted without condition and that the Holy Spirit opens it up to us as He desires for His purpose.

Scholarly interest in other writings is valid in context and can be helpful in terms of how history sheds light on both the audience written too and the writers themselves.

[appy]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

Really not a way to look at it. Are you saying if you do not agree with my position I am leaving? 

No, jayne is saying that jayne is leaving, not that you are leaving