Angels

[Your closest friendnt]

He posted within the terms, and he did not asked opinions about himself. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Golds and Blues said:

Sorry about the font. It's a software issue on my phone. When able i will correct/edit the post with the pc. 

Shalom, Golds and Blues.

Okay. I understand the limitations. That's why I usually use my computer.

1 hour ago, Golds and Blues said:

You're more than welcome to have a Baptist view of faith. And even a pyramid "sod; perspective of binding and loosing. Thankyou again for extending your knowledge of hebrew.

Well, you're more than welcome! I NEED to make the original languages available to all. I believe that's what the Ruwach haQodesh would want me to do. I've often thought about writing some books on various subjects, but so far, God had led me to write here on-line! It's been placed in my heart to fill whatever need others may have, if I can.

1 hour ago, Golds and Blues said:

 The d-rash is referenced as a renewing of the mind from the ruach ha'kodesh. A renewal in terms of future scripture relating to scriptures of the past. All inspired talmidim(disciples) wrote according to this form of study. 

Only as they were showing the fulfillment of Scripture in their present situations. See, these two passages being compared at a time MUST be compatible to be legitimately compared. Just because they contain the same word doesn't mean that they are about the same thing!

2 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

The ark built to survive the flood had 4 levels.

No, the ark was said to have THREE levels!

Genesis 6:13-22 (KJV)

13 And God said unto Noah,

"The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 

14 "Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. 15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of:

"The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits (about 150 yards),
the breadth of it fifty cubits (about 25 yards), and
the height of it thirty cubits (about 15 yards). 

16 "A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. 

17 "And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 

18 "But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou (1), and thy sons (3), and thy wife (1), and thy sons' wives (3) with thee (= 8 persons). 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. 21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them."

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

So, according to verse 16, there were THREE stories. The ROOF doesn't count! That was for protection, NOT for living space!

 

2 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

Supposing that the 4th level housed the birds. Which bird do you consider a clean messenger/angel/malikim.?

None of them, by what most consider "mal'kiym" or "aggeloi" or "angels." They were BIRDS! 

2 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

The dove

Or 

The Crow

Genesis 8:6-12 (KJV)

6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days (after the ark ran aground), that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made: 7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth. 

8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; 9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; 11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. 

12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.

Noach sent both birds out 40 days after the ark ran aground. Between the two of these, both gave Noach information about the Flood waters. The raven (in the crow family) didn't return to the ark. This told Noach that the bird knew he could survive until the waters dried up.

The dove (in the pigeon family), needed a place to alight. Since she could not find a place for her feet, she returned to the ark. This told Noach that no significant amount of dry earth was to be found.

After a week, the dove was sent out again and came back with an olive leaf in her mouth. (NOTHING is said about a branch, or additional leaves it contained, or whether it bore olives! It was just עֲלֵה־זַ֖יִת, an olive leaf!)

So, how do you arrive at 24?

2 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

Wings of .....?

Psalms 91:4

Psalm 91:1-4 (KJV)

1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

Let's be clear here! This passage has absolutely NOTHING to do with Genesis 8:6-12! You're trying to made some illegitimate connection between these two verses based on ... what? The fact that birds have wings and feathers?! IT DOESN'T WORK!

Don't think for ONE MOMENT that you can smile some beatific grin and think you've fallen into the lap of God's luxury because you've made some weak-brained connection between these two passages of Scripture as though the Spirit of God "led you to this connection"! I'll call it as I see it! It's a load of NONSENSE!

1 hour ago, Golds and Blues said:

An example of rez and d-rash can be found mentioned by ole sh'aul many times in his letters. He pointed to both the Torah and the prophets being revealed in mashiach.

Yes, the PROPHECIES of Mashiyach's coming were foretold in both the Torah and the Navi'iym! Don't blame Rav Sha'uwl for your nonsensical approach to his letters!

1 hour ago, Golds and Blues said:

Beautiful things like pearls are meant to be concealed just as Yeshua instructed.

Blessed be The Holy One

Again, this is nonsense! There were TWO times that Yeshua` mentioned "pearls":

Matthew 7:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the BEAM that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, 'Let me pull out the mote (speck) out of thine eye'; and, behold, a BEAM (weaver's pole) is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite (play-actor), first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye!

6 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend YOU."

 

Yeshua`s point here is not to give your holy food, given to you by the priests after a sacrifice, to the dogs, because dogs can't appreciate it! He also said, "Don't throw your pearls at the pigs; the pigs won't see them as valuable gifts but as MISSILES thrown at them! So, they'll stomp on them and turn upon you as though you attacked them!

This is both to be seen as literally, an OBVIOUS error, but also with people who can't appreciate or value what you present to ignorant people! They'll just misunderstand and think you're attacking their character! They must first VALUE and APPRECIATE what you can present to them BEFORE you make an attempt to present it to them.
 

Matthew 13:45-46 (KJV)

45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: 46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Yeshua` here is talking about His coming Kingdom, and He compared it to a dealer in jewelry, looking for valuable pearls. He said that the dealer would find a very valuable pearl and would liquidate all of his assets to be able to afford to buy that pearl. Buying it as cheaply as he could, he would know that he could turn a profit by selling it for a higher price. Yeshua` was saying that His Kingdom will be the same way. Yeshua` will be wiser than Shlomoh ("Solomon") and be able to do the same with His assets, liquidating His assets to be able to buy a more valuable commodity and increase His Kingdom's wealth.

There's NOTHING in either passage that would suggest that we should "hide our pearls!"

[Retrobyter]

18 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

He posted within the terms, and he did not ask for opinions about himself. 

Shalom, Your closest friendnt.

I agree, and I'm not attacking the person; I'm attacking the methodology employed in trying to understand Scripture. Ever since the late 100s A.D., there have been those who suggest a "spiritual" or "allegorical" interpretation to Scripture. This is not a good interpretive method for understanding the Scriptures! One should stick to the historical-grammatical interpretation. IF the Scripture points out an allegory, this method can handle this within the grammatical portion of the interpretation method, but it's just not a good idea to expect allegory or "spiritual" interpretation everywhere one reads! One is MISSING THE POINT of the Scripture when one goes looking for such allegories in everything one reads!

As far as rabinical Judaism is concerned, that may have started earlier, but it is still vulnerable to the same misinterpretations of Scripture.

[Starise]

I'm not getting any association to heavenly beings out of any of this 

I call them heavenly beings because as @Retrobyter so aptly pointed out, the term angel means messenger, either heavenly or human. 

There are different kinds of heavenly beings which I find interesting. 

I can't find any association to our subject in these last several posts. If there is one, please explain how any of it ties in?

It almost appears to be an obfuscation by a few here. If true, then the next question is why? Is there something we could be learning here that someone doesn't want us to know?

Maybe it's time for an angels part 2.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

John 1

"And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him."

Matthew 3, Luke 3

Shalom, Peace, Golds and Blues.

There's a key word here that indicates a TRUE analogy: "LIKE!" Sit back a moment and think clearly: It should be obvious to all that the Ruwach haQodesh is NOT a dove. Thus, Yochanan ("John") was saying that the MOVEMENT of the Ruwach was SIMILAR to the gentle lighting of a dove upon Him and ABODE (STAYED) upon Him.

Now, consider the word "Ruwach" itself: This Hebrew word itself means "a wind." Now, ask yourself: How does a WIND light gently upon Yeshua`? I think of a swirling wind that touches down like a small tornado or a dust devil and swirls about Him, moving His hair and beard as He breathed the wind into His body until the whole of the Wind was taken within Him!

That's my thought; I put myself in the scene, visualizing what was happening. That DOES take some imagination. But, there's no need or call for taking it beyond what the Scriptures said happened. Our imaginations must ALWAYS be tempered by the exact wording of the Scriptures. If our imagination starts to veer away from what the authors intended, we need to take the time to re-read the whole passage to be sure what we are thinking is still subordinate to the text.

It's also not necessary to link every occurrence of a word together. We don't do that when we talk in everyday life, do we? No, words take on a meaning appropriate to the context. IF a context draws upon another passage of Scripture, THEN they may be linked together through that direct or indirect quote. 

I honestly hope this helps.

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

Your thoughts of wind are noted. Yet you've ignored my simple question of discernment. Which of the 2 birds are clean. The dove or the crow? Their very mention from noach is apart of the Winds and breath of life to be considered in wings.

The dove is specifically mentioned by 3 gospels witnesses. The spirit was not an eagle, quail, nor a crow.  A dove was the form of spirit seen. And a number of wings is for a seraf to share where rest is assured in a fire always kept burning.

Has anyone reading here noticed that the "to and fro phrase", applied to the crow, storms causing waves, and a lack of rest. To and fro is also applied to a certain former angel if I recall correctly.

Where as the dove found an olive branch/leaf from a tree that the other trees consider a King .

Theres no such thing as coincidence in the school of thought I was raised.

Shabbat shalom, Golds and Blues.

I've not ignored your question. I thought I answered it already:

The dove, a member of the pigeon family, is a clean bird.

The raven, a member of the crow family, is an unclean bird - a carrion feeder, in fact.

HOWEVER, that wasn't the issue as to why they were sent out of the ark to search for land. If you think otherwise, then you've been misled.

-o-

In all FOUR of the Gospels, Matthew 3:12-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22; and John 1:29-34, the word is "LIKE!" The Ruwach haQodesh descending upon Yeshua` haMashiyach was LIKE the descent of a dove alighting upon Him and staying upon Him! In fact, according to Yochanan's Gospel, it appears that Yochanan the Immerser was the one who actually saw this occur.

-o-

If you're referring to the parable of Yowtaam, Judges 9:7-15, then you should remember that the trees first asked the olive tree, the fig tree, and the vine to rule over them, and each of them refused! The BRAMBLE (Hebrew: haa'aaTaad), or THORNBUSH-referring to Aviymelekh ("Abimelech")-accepted WITH CONDITIONS! He was talking about the inhabitants of Shekhem and Beit Millow' making Aviymelekh their king! He was prophesying against him, and three years later, there's a falling out and Avimelekh was killed by a woman dropping a millstone on his head and all his armorbearers thrusting him through (at his command) after killing all the people of Shekhem. This all happened after Gid`own ("Gideon") died.

(As a side note, how many people today actually study the history found in Judges?)

There may not be any coincidence when it comes to God's Plan for His Creation, but He often doesn't share the background connections with human beings. If they can't learn from history, then they doom themselves to repeat the mistakes of their ancestors, just as the Separatists (P'rushiym or Pharisees) and the Righteous Ones (Ts'duqiym or Sadducees) did when Yeshua` walked the earth.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Retrobyter
It's now the Shabbat

[kwikphilly]

On 3/17/2022 at 9:52 PM, Starise said:

Me too. 

This makes 3...... Maybe its time for an " angels fini"

[other one]

4 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

This makes 3...... Maybe its time for an " angels fini"

I was going to comment, but thought better of it...

[enoob57]

5 minutes ago, other one said:

I was going to comment, but thought better of it...

this is cleverly masked as a no comment

but we know we read something  

[other one]

8 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

this is cleverly masked as a no comment

but we know we read something  

My grandmother always taught us that when you are wrong, admit it and apologize; if you are right be quiet.

Well projecting that, if you know what you are about to say will be unable to reach a consensus, it's best to just be quiet to start with.   

Kwik's idea was better than mine so much that it was worth posting a worthy sticker on it..  and I don't have to be thought of as being tacky.   So all is well..   I hope.

Where is Omegaman to end all this.