Angels

[debrakay]

On 3/24/2022 at 10:36 AM, Starise said:

Bad rebellious angels activity is varied, but here are a few of the things they are up to.

-To promote the vices that cause men to destroy themselves

To promote any environment that furthers their leader's attempt at causing maximum losses to the other side,including:

- Disinformation of all kinds

-Misinformation of all kinds

-False accusation

-Appearing as false gods to fool men

-Appearing as ghosts of family members to fool them.

-Invasion of churches.

-Promotion of sinful sexual practices

-Promotion of false beliefs and lies, such as many ways to heaven.

Those bad angels are doing a bang-up job today!  Could it be that time is short? 

[Retrobyter]

7 minutes ago, Starise said:

Thanks @Retrobyter for providing some relevancy to the subject, however for those who may not know, those who might be totally uninitiated in the bible I need to clarify that this theory apparently comes from extra biblical writings.

This is the very first time I've ever heard such a story about Cain being underground. No doubt some people did and still do live in underground caves and homes. I don't see how we can tie that all directly to Cain beyond any doubt. If you could provide links to your references I would appreciate it.

Shalom, Starise.

This is not extra-biblical in origin. I got this directly from the Scriptures. There's no outside source to quote.

Here's the logic:

Let's look at the murder first and the subsequent punishment:

Genesis 4:1-12 (KJV)

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain (Hebrew: Qayin = "Acquired"), and said,

"I have gotten a man from the LORD." (Hebrew: "qaanitiy 'iysh et-YHWH" = "I-have-acquired a-male (as a direct object) of-YHWH")

2 And she again bare his brother Abel (Hebrew: Hevel = "vapor; breath [one can see]"). And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain,

"Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

9 And the LORD said unto Cain,

"Where is Abel thy brother?"

And he said,

"I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?"

10 And he said,

"What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth!"

So, Qayin, who was a farmer growing plants, would not be able to have any sustainable produce from the land. He would be a fugitive because he had murdered a brother and his other brothers and sisters would attempt to revenge Hevel for the blood Qayin spilt. He would also be a vagabond - a wanderer IN the earth (Hebrew: baa'aarets = properly "IN-the-earth").

-o-

Qayin complained to YHWH:

Genesis 4:13-15 (KJV)

13 And Cain said unto the LORD,

"My punishment is greater than I can bear (carry). (It's greater than I deserve!) 14 Behold,
(1) thou hast driven me out this day from the face (surface) of the earth (Hebrew: mee`al pneey haa'adaamaah = "from-above [the]-surface of-the-soil"); and
(2) from thy face shall I be hid (Hebrew: uwmippaanekhaa essaateer = "and-from-thy-face I-shall-be-hidden"); and
(3) I shall be a fugitive  (Hebrew: vhaayiytiy naa` = "and-I-shall-be a-fugitive") and
(4) [I shall be] a vagabond in the earth (Hebrew: vaanaad baa'aarets = "and-a-wanderer in-the-earth") ; and it shall come to pass, that 
(5) every one that findeth me shall slay me! (Hebrew: `aal mots'iy yahargeeniy = anyone who-find-me shall-kill-me")! 

15 And the LORD said unto him,

"Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold."

And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

So, God made number (5) less of a threat with a curse. Now, look at what Qayin did after that:

Genesis 4:16-17 (KJV)

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod (Hebrew: nowd = "wandering"), on the east of Eden.

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch (Hebrew: Chanokh = to-train-up; initiate; dedicate): and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch (Hebrew: Chanokh).

And, this would be an assumption, but most children and grandchildren don't want to leave Dad or Grandpa, so the city would grow with Qayin's own relatives, out of sight, underground, and hidden from the eyes of those living above ground.

They might grow their own things below ground, such as mushrooms, but they might also venture out from time to time to gather fruit and plants from above ground and bring them back to store underground. An interesting thing to note is that "Chanokh" is said to be derived from "cheekh" meaning the "palate; the roof of the mouth," possibly implying a cave or cavern.

7 minutes ago, Starise said:

In the bible instead I read of a tower men from Cain built called the tower of Babel. This would be opposite of men who wanted to dwell underground. These were men building a tower supposedly to heaven.

Actually, the tower of Bavel ("Babel" from which comes the name "Babylon") wasn't until Genesis 11, which occurred AFTER the Flood in Noach's time. Since only 8 souls (Noach and his wife, his three sons and their wives) were saved through the Flood, the men who built this tower were descendants of Noach, who was NOT a descendant of Qayin. (On the other hand, some Rabbis believe that Na`amaah in Genesis 4:22 was mentioned because she became "Mrs. Noach," but we don't know that for sure.)

7 minutes ago, Starise said:

Those such as yourself who disagree with the angel/man mutations have to explain why we have far too many examples of tribes of literal giants that were not fully human. Not one or two freaks of nature or accidents, entire peoples who were giants by any standard. The very ones who when the children of Israel came in, commented they were mere grasshoppers compared to them.

The genetic make-up of the human DNA is miraculous! If there's one thing we know about YHWH God, it's that He LOVES variety! Just look at all the species of plants and animals that He created in just THREE days (Days 3, 5, and 6)! Plants from the tiny plankton that swim in the oceans to the towering redwoods in California, there are a MULTITUDE of variants! Animals from the tiny protozoa to the HUGE blue whales, there are also a MULTITUDE of variants! Sure there are some "entire peoples" who are like the short pygmies or the tall southern Sudanese tribes, the Maasai, Turkana, Samburu and Dinka tribes. However, we have such oddities in the Bible, as well:

Deuteronomy 3:11 (KJV)

11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits (13.5 feet) was the length thereof, and four cubits (6 feet) the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man (18 inches = 1.5 feet).

And, don't forget Golyat ("Goliath") of Gath, who was one of FIVE brothers (hence, the five smooth stones David picked up):

1 Samuel 17:4-7 (KJV)

4 And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span (9.5 feet). 5 And he had an helmet of brass upon his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail; and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of brass (78 pounds). 6 And he had greaves of brass upon his legs, and a target of brass between his shoulders. 7 And the staff of his spear was like a weaver's beam; and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron (15 pounds): and one bearing a shield went before him.

According to IDSWater.com, "A normal long sword usually weighs between 2 1/2lbs. and 4 1/2 lbs. at the very most."

When David went to consult with the priest of YHWH God, he took this sword to help him when running from king Sha'uwl.

1 Samuel 21:8-9 (KJV)

8 And David said unto Ahimelech,

"And is there not here under thine hand spear or sword? for I have neither brought my sword nor my weapons with me, because the king's business required haste."

9 And the priest said,

"The sword of Goliath the Philistine, whom thou slewest in the valley of Elah, behold, it is here wrapped in a cloth behind the ephod: if thou wilt take that, take it: for there is no other save that here."

And David said, 

"There is none like that; give it me."

Then, we read when David was old,

2 Samuel 21:15-22 (KJV)

15 Moreover the Philistines had yet war again with Israel; and David went down, and his servants with him, and fought against the Philistines: and David waxed faint. 16 And Ishbibenob, which was of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose spear weighed three hundred shekels of brass in weight, he being girded with a new sword, thought to have slain David. 17 But Abishai the son of Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the Philistine, and killed him. Then the men of David sware unto him, saying,

"Thou shalt go no more out with us to battle, that thou quench not the light of Israel."

18 And it came to pass after this, that there was again a battle with the Philistines at Gob: then Sibbechai the Hushathite slew Saph, which was of the sons of the giant. 19 And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. 20 And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant. 21 And when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea the brother of David slew him. 22 These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants.

So, there were five brothers, including Golyat and one who had 24 digits, all born to a giant in Gath, who were also giants in their own right! Thus, it was a hereditary trait!

In every case, there's NOT A ONE that doesn't have the 46 chromosomes that make up a HUMAN BEING!

The U.S. Sun said,

"HUMANS usually have 46 chromosomes, but 22 of those are copies.

Each cell of the body contains a full set of chromosomes, and humans could have as many as 37 trillion cells each, so that’s 37 trillion copies of our 46 chromosomes in each human."

When they align for either mitosis or myosis, there are 23 pairs of a double helix that split and either replicate themselves (mitosis) or 23 halves join with the 23 halves from a mate and create a new child (myosis), individually unique from both parents.

There are a number of traits that stand out in an individual (dominant genes), but there are also a myriad of traits that are invisible in the DNA code (recessive genes) that may resurface in the reproduction of the child or a grandchild.

We are still just barely scratching the surface of all there is to know about the genetic structure of the human DNA!

Something REALLY mind-boggling to think about is this: Adam had ALL this information stored in every cell of his being! Thus, the giantism and miniturism in all of the tribes of human beings, every skin color, every muscle type, every eye color, every hair color, every hair texture, etc., etc., etc., were ALL stored in the genes of our ultimate parents!

We don't need the "angels cohabited with the daughters of men" garbage. God Himself is the SOURCE of all the human variety!

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Yes, the Nephilem.  I’d venture to say that Goliath was one of these giants.  

Shabbat shalom, Selah7.

Nope. I can state categorically that Golyat ("Goliath") was NOT a "nfiyl," the plural of which is "nfiliym." The word means a "feller [of wood]" - a WOODCUTTER or a LUMBERJACK! They were bigger and brawnier because they HAD to be for that kind of work! It's not a race or a people; it's an OCCUPATION! Golyat was a WARRIOR, not a LUMBERJACK (although he probably would have made a good one).

[other one]

15 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

After being marked by Adonai The lineage of cain built a city-ie cage to harbor all and only the unclean animals. Their lineage was never about repentance. Hatred within the leavened offering is mentioned as the mark from cain to lamech.  Eventually their unclean livestock are fed, numbered, separated, and given salvation upon the ark noach built. 

Take note that 2 birds like spirits are given an equal opportunity to be a messenger of a blessing. Yet The unclean bird/crow in never returning is a confirmation of unforgiveness.. The crow went to and fro seeking a return to its master cain and the leavened bread.

After the mikvah waters subsided. The crow was Never to be seen again by noach and family. An angel/spirit that denied repetenance is ever known by its message..

But what do I know about angels and bread upon waters?

Where does that information come from?

[enoob57]

1 minute ago, other one said:

Where does that information come from?

You had to ask didn't you  

[other one]

15 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

After being marked by Adonai The lineage of cain built a city-ie cage to harbor all and only the unclean animals. Their lineage was never about repentance. Hatred within the leavened offering is mentioned as the mark from cain to lamech.  Eventually their unclean livestock are fed, numbered, separated, and given salvation upon the ark noach built. 

Take note that 2 birds like spirits are given an equal opportunity to be a messenger of a blessing. Yet The unclean bird/crow in never returning is a confirmation of unforgiveness.. The crow went to and fro seeking a return to its master cain and the leavened bread.

After the mikvah waters subsided. The crow was Never to be seen again by noach and family. An angel/spirit that denied repetenance is ever known by its message..

But what do I know about angels and bread upon waters?

 

 

that is so far out I don't even have a comment.

[other one]

26 minutes ago, Golds and Blues said:

Far out or somewhere near like the mouth and heart.

Way far out.

[TheBlade]

Angels.. not really much we know. They do what ever God says.. hello so should we yet we don't. Yet they are not puppets they think for them selfs and make choices we know this from those that fell. They long to understand salvation. What we don't understand is how they see us. We are created in Gods image they were not and we have GOD in us, Christ in us and we are one. We can call God our Father ABBA. Angels can not. So we will be shocked how they treat us.. its CHRIST in us.  I've (song playing .. STAND IN FIATH Danny Gokey.. yes amen) never longed to talk to one to just chat.. something always says NO.. after all this yes but not yet. 

Oh some of this other stuff at the end of this thread... SO SORRY well a movie where Steve Martin was talking to his wife says "ok can we come back from la la land now?" lol sorry it just came to mind. 

[other one]

6 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

Why then are you responding to something so "way far out"?

Did something prick your conscience, or do I need to lower the volume to accommodate. 

The op asked about angels after all. So please refain from interjecting unless you've something to offer on the Topic.

Question; do you agree with my exegesis discerning clean from unclean?

It really doesn't pertain to the OP as far as I can see. You are speaking things that I have never read about in the Bible without really saying where it came from, and there is too much to disagree with to deep hijacking a thread on Angels.

As far as responding, I made a comment and you have been asking me questions that I kind of thought you might want answered.   If you don't want me to comment, I might suggest you not ask me questions.

[Starise]

22 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

Name the Angel's and their charge 

In any war the facts are hidden. While some have attempted to classify all of the angels. I don't see any detailed classification of heavenly beings in general. We are simply told about a few of them here and there. By no means all of them, nor are we told exactly what they are all up to. I'm sure Satan would love to get his hands on that intelligence.

One of the best book ever written on the subject IMO was the book by Billy Graham.

He does a pretty good study on the subject in that book.