Revelation 9 - Locusts reference

[Michael37]

9 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The beast is not a material entity?

You tell me . . .

Rev 13:1-2  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.  (2)  And the beast which I saw was

• like unto a leopard, and
• his feet were as the feet of a bear, and
• his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and
• the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
   

Note The Position of Babylon:

Babylon sits upon many waters = upon peoples, multitudes, nations, tongues.
Babylon sits upon a scarlet coloured beast = upon the Satanic superstructure that embodies the natural wickedness of mankind with its godless ambitions.
Babylon sits upon seven mountain heads = upon the historical empires of Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece, Political Rome, & Papal Rome.
Babylon sits as a city of supremacy = over the earth and its leaders.

Rev 17:1, 15.
Rev 17:3
Rev 17:9
Rev 17:18

Spiritual and supernatural objects and concepts are real and effective in the natural world without being physical and material themselves, manifesting however they are allowed. Babylon rides the beast so if you can explain that in purely physical, literal terms have at it. 

 

[abcdef]

7 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

You tell me . . .

Rev 13:1-2  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.  (2)  And the beast which I saw was

• like unto a leopard, and
• his feet were as the feet of a bear, and
• his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and
• the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The beast the rises from the sea is also the 4th beast of Dan. 7, which is Rome. 

And the iron of the legs and feet of the statue in Dan. 2.

The Roman Empire and the RCC.

Real visible nations and entities.

 

7 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

• Note The Position of Babylon:

Babylon sits upon many waters = upon peoples, multitudes, nations, tongues.
Babylon sits upon a scarlet coloured beast = upon the Satanic superstructure that embodies the natural wickedness of mankind with its godless ambitions.
Babylon sits upon seven mountain heads = upon the historical empires of Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece, Political Rome, & Papal Rome.
Babylon sits as a city of supremacy = over the earth and its leaders.

Rev 17:1, 15.
Rev 17:3
Rev 17:9
Rev 17:18

The beast/Babylon is the Roman Empire. The woman is Jerusalem shown in the 85 AD-96 AD ish time period.

The woman is branded as a captive of Rome, but she is not the beast nation Rome.

 

7 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Spiritual and supernatural objects and concepts are real and effective in the natural world without being physical and material themselves, manifesting however they are allowed. Babylon rides the beast so if you can explain that in purely physical, literal terms have at it. 

 

The spirits are in people.

It is people and the material who carry out the will of the spirits.

The locusts are false teachers who attack the people of Israel.

-------

Will the abyss be a literal hole in the ground someday where material locusts come out?

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

You tell me . . .

Rev 13:1-2  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.  (2)  And the beast which I saw was

• like unto a leopard, and
• his feet were as the feet of a bear, and
• his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and
• the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
   

Note The Position of Babylon:

Babylon sits upon many waters = upon peoples, multitudes, nations, tongues.
Babylon sits upon a scarlet coloured beast = upon the Satanic superstructure that embodies the natural wickedness of mankind with its godless ambitions.
Babylon sits upon seven mountain heads = upon the historical empires of Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece, Political Rome, & Papal Rome.
Babylon sits as a city of supremacy = over the earth and its leaders.

Rev 17:1, 15.
Rev 17:3
Rev 17:9
Rev 17:18

Spiritual and supernatural objects and concepts are real and effective in the natural world without being physical and material themselves, manifesting however they are allowed. Babylon rides the beast so if you can explain that in purely physical, literal terms have at it. 

 

The locusts are not real bugs.

They are spirits that inflect wounds on other entities, which are people, Israel centered and others.

So how do the locust spirits manifest themselves in the material world?

In people?

If they manifest themselves as people, then what people are they?

If you can identify what people/nation that they are, then they would be shown in the statue of Dan. 2. They can only be Rome, the iron.

Not the Roman Empire, that beast died centuries ago, but the image empire RCC that exists from the fall of Rome until this day.

If the locusts are associated with Rome, then the place that the abyss opens would be Rome.

 

 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, angels4u said:

It's so true what you're saying and there are seasons where we learn more, lately God is showing me so many things and so many things are happening right in front of our eyes ,I'm so thankful I'm safe in Him as He cares for us, what is to come is a scary picture and people need to get saved to escape judgment  and know who they are in Christ!

Shalom, angels4u.

Our God YHWH is MUCH bigger than many give Him credit! We can go THROUGH the scariest of pictures, and He will go through them WITH us! NEVER be fearful of what is to come; look BEYOND the near future to the ULTIMATE future, and trust Him who holds us in the palm of His hand!

Think of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego! He'll go with us THROUGH the fire! Think of Daniel! He'll go with us INTO the lions' den and SHUT the lions' mouthes! Keep your eyes on HIM! And, be THRILLED at what He will do next! And, if God doesn't choose to save us from the fires, So what? With what are they going to threaten you? Death?! LOL! You are slated for ETERNAL life! And, there IS a Resurrection coming!

Remember Job's words: "Though He slay me, yet will I TRUST HIM!" (Job 13:15) and "Though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God!" (Job 19:26). God is the CREATOR of all flesh! He can re-create you from the dust of the ground, even if there's nothing left of you, and breathe life into you again, restoring all your being because HE REMEMBERS YOU PERFECTLY!

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

The locusts are not real bugs.

Shalom, abcdef.

I beg to differ! These locusts will indeed be locusts - a type of ...

Quote

locust, (family Acrididae), any of a group of insects(order Orthoptera) that are distributed worldwide, the common name of which generally refers to the group of short-horned grasshoppers that often increase greatly in numbers and migrate long distances in destructive swarms. In Europe the term locust denotes large acridids, whereas smaller species are called grasshoppers.

Info provided by www.britannica.com.

From roaring.earth.

https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/HJ0au5qQ8TP8aVA9kMDTDg--~C/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9MTA0O3E9ODA7dz0yMDA-/https://www.bing.com/th?id=OIP.akLOiu76B1so9g2-4HeLggHaD3&w=200&h=104&c=8&rs=1&qlt=80&pid=3.1

• Long before the dinosaurs, colossal dragonflies ruled the skies. The creatures are the largest flying insects on record, measuring up to 15 inches long with wingspans larger than some birds. Image via Wikimedia Commons Known as Meganeura in the scientific community, these ancient insects are also sometimes referred to as griffinflies.

I believe these locusts, like the dragonflies before the Flood, were much larger than they are today. I believe that a group of them were trapped in the aftermath of the Flood below ground, and the meteorite that punches a REAL hole in the earth at just the right "key coordinates" will release them upon the earth's surface. Expecting an atmosphere of 30% oxygen, they will be in an atmosphere that's only 21% oxygen and will suffer for it. They, like lions and wolves, will lean toward being carnivorous; however, they will not be able to eat the meat they desire. After five months, the species will become truly extinct.

That's why I believe they will look like this:

 

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

They are spirits that inflect wounds on other entities, which are people, Israel centered and others.

No, they're not. They are REAL creatures.

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

So how do the locust spirits manifest themselves in the material world?

Same as any insect manifests itself!

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

In people?

If they manifest themselves as people, then what people are they?

No, they won't manifest themselves as people. They are antediluvian creatures - hold-overs from before the Flood. 

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

If you can identify what people/nation that they are, then they would be shown in the statue of Dan. 2. They can only be Rome, the iron.

Not the Roman Empire, that beast died centuries ago, but the image empire RCC that exists from the fall of Rome until this day.

If the locusts are associated with Rome, then the place that the abyss opens would be Rome.

None of the rest of this applies.

[angels4u]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, angels4u.

Our God YHWH is MUCH bigger than many give Him credit! We can go THROUGH the scariest of pictures, and He will go through them WITH us! NEVER be fearful of what is to come; look BEYOND the near future to the ULTIMATE future, and trust Him who holds us in the palm of His hand!

Think of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego! He'll go with us THROUGH the fire! Think of Daniel! He'll go with us INTO the lions' den and SHUT the lions' mouthes! Keep your eyes on HIM! And, be THRILLED at what He will do next! And, if God doesn't choose to save us from the fires, So what? With what are they going to threaten you? Death?! LOL! You are slated for ETERNAL life! And, there IS a Resurrection coming!

Remember Job's words: "Though He slay me, yet will I TRUST HIM!" (Job 13:15) and "Though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God!" (Job 19:26). God is the CREATOR of all flesh! He can re-create you from the dust of the ground, even if there's nothing left of you, and breathe life into you again, restoring all your being because HE REMEMBERS YOU PERFECTLY!

Thanks ,I just talked about that to somebody else ,Daniel and his friends didn't even smell like fire and the king saw a fourth person in the fire,Jesus was with them all along!

No need to be afraid of what is coming if we know ourself to be hid in Christ !

[angels4u]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

I beg to differ! These locusts will indeed be locusts - a type of ...

Info provided by www.britannica.com.

From roaring.earth.

https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/HJ0au5qQ8TP8aVA9kMDTDg--~C/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9MTA0O3E9ODA7dz0yMDA-/https://www.bing.com/th?id=OIP.akLOiu76B1so9g2-4HeLggHaD3&w=200&h=104&c=8&rs=1&qlt=80&pid=3.1

• Long before the dinosaurs, colossal dragonflies ruled the skies. The creatures are the largest flying insects on record, measuring up to 15 inches long with wingspans larger than some birds. Image via Wikimedia Commons Known as Meganeura in the scientific community, these ancient insects are also sometimes referred to as griffinflies.

I believe these locusts, like the dragonflies before the Flood, were much larger than they are today. I believe that a group of them were trapped in the aftermath of the Flood below ground, and the meteorite that punches a REAL hole in the earth at just the right "key coordinates" will release them upon the earth's surface. Expecting an atmosphere of 30% oxygen, they will be in an atmosphere that's only 21% oxygen and will suffer for it. They, like lions and wolves, will lean toward being carnivorous; however, they will not be able to eat the meat they desire. After five months, the species will become truly extinct.

That's why I believe they will look like this:

 

No, they're not. They are REAL creatures.

Same as any insect manifests itself!

No, they won't manifest themselves as people. They are antediluvian creatures - hold-overs from before the Flood. 

None of the rest of this applies.

Good picture and explanation ,did you draw that?

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, angels4u said:

Good picture and explanation ,did you draw that?

Yes. I copied a locust from a book and added the tail from another picture of a scorpion. The mandibles were enlarged "like lion's teeth," and the face markings were darkened along lines that already exist on the locust's head. I also added extended the body hairs that were all over the creature.

Here's a close-up of the locust's face:

Can you see the markings of the face below the eyes on the top of its head in the lighter shaded area? It would be easy to see a human face in those lines and bulges. We don't usually see them as a face because the common locust is so small, BUT if the locust were bigger, say a foot or more in length, we could hardly miss how one could see a face there! It would be like seeing a face in a cloud or an inkblot!

The dragonfly : the locust :: the meganeura : scorpioidal locust of Rev. 9.

[Retrobyter]

 

Shalom, @angels4u.

One more picture to show the mandibles of the current locust:

Katydids are similar in mouth construction as that of a locust. Years ago when my son was little, he caught a katydid and was playing with it when he began screaming! He claimed that the katydid BIT him! I didn't realize they could be a threat like that; so, I took the katydid and put a pencil close to its mouth. HUGE, pointed mandibles, extended and SUNK into the wood of the pencil! I had no idea they were so large! Needless to say, we both had a much greater respect for the katydid from that time on!

Edited March 24, 2022 by Retrobyter

[abcdef]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Dennis1209.

No, sir. One cannot just white-wash the whole thing and call it all "symbolic."

1 Cor 2:13- 14.

---

The symbolism in the scriptures is very obvious, especially in the Revelation.

Rev 5:6, "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth unto all the earth."

Here the symbolism is explained by the context and the author.

The horns and eyes are symbols that are representing literal Spirits of the Lamb.

The seven Spirits of God are real, but are expressed in the vision as eyes and horns.

-

What about the slain Lamb in the middle of the throne and everything else? What does it mean that the Lamb was in the middle?

What does it mean that the  Lamb was slain?

What does it mean by saying that the seven eyes and seven horn Spirits were part of the lamb? In a sense, they are the Lamb?

-

The passages don't necessarily explain some of the symbolism or exactly how the symbols should be interpreted,

but the explanation of how the symbolism should be understood, is found in other passages of scriptures that use the same explanations.

For example, the use of "waters" for people or nations. Rev 17:15, Isa 8:7-8.

-

Rev 13:1, A beast rises up out of the sea, who has seven heads and 10 horns, literal or symbolic? Or symbolism representing an entity that is real?

Is it literally the sea? Or are the waters a symbol of people and nations?

What does it mean when it says that he rises up out of the sea?

What are the heads and horns and what do they symbolize? Well they are explained in Rev 17, but not in the context of the Rev 13 passage.

--

Here is the point,

The symbols themselves are not the intended subject, but the real entity or event that the symbols represent is the intended subject.

That is, trying to make the symbols into literal objects changes the meaning of the passage.

We all agree that there is symbolism in the Bible and especially the Revelation, but it is deciding what is literal or what the symbolism is trying to represent that are the variables.

----

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

Look at the text in the KJV:

Revelation 9:1-12 (KJV)

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 

The star that falls from heaven is Satan. He does not leave heaven and God willingly, he is pushed out and falls.

To him, not a meteor, was given the key to the abyss, by Jesus Rev 1:18.

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said:

2 And he opened the bottomless pit;

Satan opens the abyss, the place of the dead, A place separated from the living, Lk 8:31, Rom 10:7.

Only Satan would unleash this evil, no good person would. Satan has a choice, open the abyss or don't, but he choose suffering and pain instead of love.

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said:

and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 

What does the air represent? Suffocation of the spirit?

What does the sun represent? God's light? Understanding about God, Jesus, and salvation?

When those who hold the scriptures suffer, the light that leads to salvation is dimmed, because the gospel is dimmed.

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said:

[So, the first analogy is not about the fifth messenger, the "star," the sky, the earth, the key, or the bottomless pit. The first analogy is that ...

the smoke out of the pit IS AS the smoke of a great furnace.

Then, it goes back to the fact that the smoke from the pit darkens the sun and the air. 

-o-

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said:

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth:

What does a locust represent in symbolism?

Can you answer?

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said:

and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 

[Here, the second analogy is that ...

the power of the locusts WAS AS the power of the scorpions of the earth.

Notice that John did NOT say that ANYTHING was like the locusts or that the locusts were like ANYTHING!]

What is a scorpion in scriptural symbolism?

False prophets as shown in Isa 9:15-16.

The sting of sin is death 1 Cor 15:55-56.

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

-o-

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 

Pain and guilt from sin, ending in spiritual death.

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said:

[Now, John said that the locusts were commanded ...

1. Not to hurt the grass of the earth (odd for modern locusts)
2. Not to hurt any green thing (again, odd for modern locusts)
3. Not to hurt any tree (again, odd for modern locusts)
4. To hurt those men who have not the seal of God in their foreheads
5. Not to kill them
6. To torment them five months

Then we get the third analogy:

The torment of the locusts WAS LIKE the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a person.

-o-

So,.... How is it that these "bugs", know the difference between the saved and the unsaved? The sealed and the unsealed?

In a crowd that is attacked by the bugs, only the unsealed are stung and suffer? And the sealed are not effected at all? Never bitten?

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said:

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

[No analogy is found in this verse.]

-o-

The death that men seek is to die to this world and rise in the newness of life towards God, Rom 6:1-11.

 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Retrobyter said: